The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Gregor]

3 hours ago, Foxstiel said:

i hope he revists older wads, maybe with a twist, to see if the grades or his opinons about a wad have changed (maybe he could even try the community midi packs for doom, tnt, plutonia and alien vendetta)

As far as the midi packs go, he used the Plutmidi.wad for his Plutonia review back in season one.

 

But just because something is newer doesn't automatically make it better...

 

I stlll don't understand why we needed a new full custom soundtrack for Alien Vendetta, a wad which is famous for, amongst many other things, its excellent music selection for each map slot, while another classic like Hell Revealed doesn't feature any custom music at all, except two repeats, for its final eleven maps and as a result we're stuck with listening to the basic default Doom 2 tracks for the remainder of the wad.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Gregor

[Jacek Bourne]

24 minutes ago, Gregor said:

while another classic like Hell Revealed doesn't even feature any custom music whatsoever for its final ten maps (apart from a few repeats) and as a result simply defaults to its stock Doom 2 tracks for a lot its most famous entries.

I believe scythe 1 is more deserving of a midi pack because apart from a few symphony x songs and a single rott song everything is from an Iwad. There are also a few songs in the future mini episode from other games.

[Gregor]

38 minutes ago, Jacek Bourne said:

I believe scythe 1 is more deserving of a midi pack because apart from a few symphony x songs and a single rott song everything is from an Iwad. There are also a few songs in the future mini episode from other games.

I disagree. Scythe does have a custom soundtrack. It's a unique combination of midis from a variety of sources, although midis from Doom 1 & 2 and TNT: Evilution clearly dominate. The important thing though is that there is a replacement midi for every single map slot purposely chosen by Erik Alm himself. He picked those midis as his preferred soundtrack for each map, independent of what you think of his selection.

 

On the other hand, maps 20-26, 28 & 30 of Hell Revealed do not feature any midi replacement whatsoever (and maps 27 & 29 reuse the midis from maps 11 & 14, respectively). As a result the game simply defaults to the stock Doom 2 tracks for these maps, since no replacement midis are present in the wad file. You could argue that Yonatan Donner and Haggay Niv REALLY loved those specific Doom 2 midis and that's why they didn't replace them, but the most likely explanation is that they simply ran out of Rise of the Triad songs to use and couldn't be bothered to look for any suitable alternative midi tracks. The result is as bare-bones as it gets as far as midi selection in Doom is concerned and stands in starkest contrast to the rest of the wad with its famous use of the ROTT soundtrack.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Gregor

[Jacek Bourne]

9 minutes ago, Gregor said:

I disagree. Scythe does have a custom soundtrack. It's a unique combination of midis from a variety of source, although midis from Doom 1 & 2 and TNT: Evilution clearly domiate. The important thing though is that there is a replacement midi for every single map slot purposely chosen by Erik Alm himself. He picked those midis as his preferred soundtrack for each map, independent of what you think of his selection.

 

On the other hand, maps 20-26, 28 & 30 of Hell Revealed do not feature any midi replacement whatsoever (and maps 27 & 29 reuse the midis from maps 11 & 14, respectively). As a result the game simply defaults to the stock Doom 2 tracks for these maps, since no replacement midis are present in the wad file. You could argue that Yonatan Donner and Haggay Niv REALLY loved those specific Doom 2 midis and that's why they didn't replace them, but the most likely explanation is that they simply ran out of good Rise of the Triad songs to use and couldn't be bothered to look for any suitable alternative midi tracks. The result is as bare-bones as it gets as far as midi selection in Doom is concerned and stands in starkest contrast to the rest of the wad with its famous use of the ROTT soundtrack.

My reasoning for why I believe scythe 1 is more deserving of a midi pack is because out of it’s 32 maps, only 10 have tracks that originate outside of the doom Iwads as opposed to hell revealed which has only 10 tracks which originated within the Iwads. However, our basis of comparison that determines our different outlooks is founded on different beliefs so there is no point in arguing as neither of us will be able to convince the other of our opposing arguments.

[Gregor]

1 hour ago, Jacek Bourne said:

My reasoning for why I believe scythe 1 is more deserving of a midi pack is because out of it’s 32 maps, only 10 have tracks that originate outside of the doom Iwads as opposed to hell revealed which has only 10 tracks which originated within the Iwads. However, our basis of comparison that determines our different outlooks is founded on different beliefs so there is no point in arguing as neither of us will be able to convince the other of our opposing arguments.

Oh, don't worry, I can very much see your point. I would definitely prefer if Scythe 1 relied less heavily on Doom 1 & 2 midis. But since it's a custom selection chosen by Erik Alm, i also think it is the authoritive soundtrack and doesn't need replacing. Doesn't mean an alternative soundtrack for Scythe 1 wouldn't be a nice addition though.

 

My argument in favor for Hell Revealed is simply that, since the map makers didn't pick any tracks for its final third, its soundtrack remains basically unfinished and the resulting effect is disappointingly crude. That's why i think it should be considered for a future midi pack even before Scythe 1. But ideally we get both. I don't really care about the order. Cheers.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Gregor

[xScavengerWolfx]

I'm hoping that the new season the dean plays and grades newer community project maps and actually has fun. So i gotta ask......why do people always ask him to do Sunlust? The better question is what is Sunlust? I mean i'm still new here and i barely scratch the surface of mega wads and when i watch or rather listen to dean of doom while mapping (i know funny right) he brings up sunlust. 

 

So what is sunlust? is it a slaughter mega wad? or is it like all ep of Doom 1? 

[Gregor]

18 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

So what is sunlust? is it a slaughter mega wad? or is it like all ep of Doom 1? 

Sunlust is infamous for its crushing but fair level of difficulty on UV. It's also one of the most beautiful and most revered wads ever made and often serves as a bit of a meme when it comes to so-called hardcore wads one needs to play to proof their mettle.

[Jacek Bourne]

16 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

I'm hoping that the new season the dean plays and grades newer community project maps and actually has fun. So i gotta ask......why do people always ask him to do Sunlust? The better question is what is Sunlust? I mean i'm still new here and i barely scratch the surface of mega wads and when i watch or rather listen to dean of doom while mapping (i know funny right) he brings up sunlust. 

 

So what is sunlust? is it a slaughter mega wad? or is it like all ep of Doom 1? 

 Sunlust is a fairly difficult doom wad made by Ribbiks and dannebubinga that in my opinion is the best designed wad I’ve ever played. It has 32 maps and the later half delves into slaughter a decent bit however the difficulty is mostly based on monster placement and area design rather than numbers. It’s utterly brilliant.

[General Roasterock]

6 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

seriously what is with everyone recommending Sunlust to every Doom youtuber

A combination of Sunlust being the most well refined ratio of public view, difficulty, and visual spectacle to date, and the fact that most new Doom players likely haven't developed the skill to play through most of it. That's not to mention how much in Sunlust there is to talk about, especially in terms of combat science.

[Doomkid]

I stand firmly by the notion that Sunlust was always douchey thing to suggest to not-super-great Doomers on YT, especially newer ones, and now that doing so is a meme it's somehow even more tiresome.

 

There's plenty of other equally enjoyable/nice looking wads that aren't ball-busters in this day and age. My main man @MtPain27 even called recommending Sunlust to newer Doomers "hostile", and although I don't think that's usually the intent - it's pretty true if you think about it for a moment.

 

8 hours ago, Shepardus said:

MtPain27 did the impossible and turned the Sunlust episode into something his fans don't want to see.

 

99999 IQ move right here

 

3 hours ago, Gregor said:

I stlll don't understand why we needed a new full custom soundtrack for Alien Vendetta, a wad which is famous for, amongst many other things, its excellent music selection for each map slot

 

I agree on the basis that stock-standard AV has a great soundtrack that comes pre-packed with it, but I just love those AV MIDI pack tunes so much that I'm really glad they came to be, whatever the "excuse" was for making them. (I only picked "excuse" for lack of a better word!)

[General Roasterock]

53 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I stand firmly by the notion that Sunlust was always douchey thing to suggest to not-super-great Doomers on YT, especially newer ones, and now that doing so is a meme it's somehow even more tiresome.

My main man @MtPain27 even called recommending Sunlust to newer Doomers "hostile", and although I don't think that's usually the intent - it's pretty true if you think about it for a moment.

Personally I see no problem with attempting to show people one of the best WADs of the 2010s. If it's an issue of "you suck if you can't beat this", then yeah that's shitty, but I haven't seen anyone here, or even in youtube comments, that thinks like this. The specific issue I think in relation to the show is that MtPain has made it clear he doesn't want to play Sunlust, and that's all that needs to be said. 

 

[i suck at nicknames]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:53 AM, xScavengerWolfx said:

I'm hoping that the new season the dean plays and grades newer community project maps and actually has fun. So i gotta ask......why do people always ask him to do Sunlust? The better question is what is Sunlust? I mean i'm still new here and i barely scratch the surface of mega wads and when i watch or rather listen to dean of doom while mapping (i know funny right) he brings up sunlust. 

 

So what is sunlust? is it a slaughter mega wad? or is it like all ep of Doom 1? 

 

Sunlust is a 32-level megawad which is very very popular for its difficulty (X-tier easily, and yet most of the levels stand out for having extremely smart/calibrated/memorable fights and set-pieces) and for its time, a very unique minimalist-yet-modern looking visual style....I'd go so far as to call it probably the most influential wad made this decade given so many mappers nowadays run with the Ribbiks style of combat and aesthetic. 

It really got notoriety after decino beat the entire wad from a pistol start...you should check out his YT if you havent already...its a treat :)

 

Also Ribbiks the GOAT no cap

 

On 4/12/2022 at 7:48 AM, General Roasterock said:

Personally I see no problem with attempting to show people one of the best WADs of the 2010s. If it's an issue of "you suck if you can't beat this", then yeah that's shitty, but I haven't seen anyone here, or even in youtube comments, that thinks like this. The specific issue I think in relation to the show is that MtPain has made it clear he doesn't want to play Sunlust, and that's all that needs to be said. 

 

 

I dont think for a second MtPain resents viewers nagging him to play it because of some perception that he wouldnt be able to handle it- man has beaten Scythe 2, HR/HR2, Disturbia (which I gave up for being too difficult many months ago), COTEOE and other extremely difficult maps/wads....man is good enough that Im sure he wouldnt even mind playing something like the Stardate series.   

 

I think its more everyone spamming the same wad over and over again which can get annoying....so kudos to him for sticking with his "Sunlust-will-be-the-final-episode" thing. 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 1:43 AM, Gregor said:

With the end of season three of Dean of Doom already looming large in the distance, here is my list of wads that i still hope to see covered before the final curtain falls on this most beloved celebration of custom Doomdom: 

 

MM2, Eternal Doom, Requiem, STRAIN, Kama Sutra, Deus Vult 1 & 2, Reverie, A.L.T., Jenesis, Sunder (😜), Plutonia Revisited CP, Doom the Way id Did 1 & 2, dead.wire, dead.air, Erkattäññe, Comatose, No End in Sight, Preacher, and 1000 Lines 3.

 

I'm sure we'll see some of these classics reviewed before the end, but, alas, no doubt many will remain unreviewed for evermore...

 

Tarnsmans Projectile Hell, Nova 3, Resurgence, Blue Age, 180 minutes pour vivre (which Im convinced we'll get cuz of his love of the French community), CC4, Doom In Spain are some I'd love to get

 

In addition, imma need me a Sawed Off Wads episode focusing on Ribbiks and his many many one off projects. 
Man has so many incredible works that they all deserve a spotlight. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by i suck at nicknames

[elic]

Disappointed that MtPain is thinking of ending the series after only scratching the surface of the community's content - I've really gotten to enjoy his videos over the past few months. At the same time totally understand if he wants to focus on stuff other than reviews.

 

If he does decided to throw in the towel, I'm hoping a few more people take up the mantle of video reviews. His videos have been a great showcase of the vast creativity of the world of doom modding in an entertaining form, and it'd be shame for them to stop so soon. Also while I enjoy MtPain's stuff, he definitely has some pretty specific themes in what he does and doesn't enjoy, and it'd be great to see videos from someone with a different set of preferences.

[Redead-ITA]

46 minutes ago, Processingcontrol said:

Disappointed that MtPain is thinking of ending the series after only scratching the surface of the community's content - I've really gotten to enjoy his videos over the past few months. At the same time totally understand if he wants to focus on stuff other than reviews.

Honestly, it's good that he is willing to end it while it matters, you can't live on doom wads forever.

[PasokonDeacon]

I'm of the impression that he's more likely going to slow down these videos as his other creative works ramp up, rather than quit entirely. It definitely behooves us to encourage and get into making video essays to fill the gaps that he can't reasonably be expected to fill. Shame I've got college and likely jury duty all throughout this season, as I'd start work on my series beyond just planning.

[General Roasterock]

7 minutes ago, PasokonDeacon said:

I'm of the impression that he's more likely going to slow down these videos as his other creative works ramp up, rather than quit entirely. It definitely behooves us to encourage and get into making video essays to fill the gaps that he can't reasonably be expected to fill. Shame I've got college and likely jury duty all throughout this season, as I'd start work on my series beyond just planning.

The mere existence of Dean of Doom sets the bar very high for people that attempt to talk about the game in a similar nonplagiarizing light. I feel the best way to go about that is emphasizing another perspective (i.e. I know a couple higher level players that don't like Eviternity on account that visuals impress them less than gameplay), or perhaps a contrasting take on the lineup to get that discussion going that he keeps mentioning.

[PasokonDeacon]

39 minutes ago, General Roasterock said:

The mere existence of Dean of Doom sets the bar very high for people that attempt to talk about the game in a similar nonplagiarizing light. I feel the best way to go about that is emphasizing another perspective (i.e. I know a couple higher level players that don't like Eviternity on account that visuals impress them less than gameplay), or perhaps a contrasting take on the lineup to get that discussion going that he keeps mentioning.

Thing is, Dean of Doom has a canonical review format vs. the more free-form discussions you see in Doomworld club threads and other topics. MtPain27 has to cover all the maps and their perceived highlights, saving deep analysis for only the most enjoyable/impressive/interesting examples. He's able to keep episodes well-paced for his audience this way, but it's not the only optimal way to create WAD reviews/essay videos. For instance, I bet you could adapt the bulk of the Roots article by @Not Jabba into a full-lengthy documentary (or episodic series), comparing notable modern releases with influences/inspirations from back then. Or how about a video series building off the Megawad/Miniwad Club threads, trading between paraphrasing commenters' thoughts on maps and the video author's own experiences?

 

Just doing another quality series like Dean of Doom—say, from the perspective of something who just can't get into B.P.R.D. or Skillsaw WADs—is awesome on its own. But we definitely could use more alternative video formats to better cover what Dean of Doom just isn't built for.

[General Roasterock]

3 minutes ago, PasokonDeacon said:

Thing is, Dean of Doom has a canonical review format vs. the more free-form discussions you see in Doomworld club threads and other topics. 

 

Just doing another quality series like Dean of Doom—say, from the perspective of something who just can't get into B.P.R.D. or Skillsaw WADs—is awesome on its own. But we definitely could use more alternative video formats to better cover what Dean of Doom just isn't built for.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I would love different directions of exhaustive video formats. I'm just saying that he goes on record saying that he wants people talking on the points and topics he presents, on the maps he covers. It's an invitation for people to come back and give these things attention. I've been writing my own response for the entire TNT episode, not because I want to revolutionize how Doom analysis is done, but because this man has inspired me to perform creative insight.

For the alternative direction stuff, I feel like that Mucus Flow video does exactly that. It's singular in purpose, mostly about experience and atmosphere, and is one big spotlight not only for a pretty divisive and disputable map, but also for others that want a model on how to look at these things, getting creative with your view of Doom outside of "I make the low quality sfx happen when I shoot the BFG". I hope it resonates with others as much as it did myself, and clearly you as well.

[elic]

18 minutes ago, PasokonDeacon said:

Thing is, Dean of Doom has a canonical review format vs. the more free-form discussions you see in Doomworld club threads and other topics. MtPain27 has to cover all the maps and their perceived highlights, saving deep analysis for only the most enjoyable/impressive/interesting examples. He's able to keep episodes well-paced for his audience this way, but it's not the only optimal way to create WAD reviews/essay videos. For instance, I bet you could adapt the bulk of the Roots article by @Not Jabba into a full-lengthy documentary (or episodic series), comparing notable modern releases with influences/inspirations from back then. Or how about a video series building off the Megawad/Miniwad Club threads, trading between paraphrasing commenters' thoughts on maps and the video author's own experiences?

Definitely some good ideas here

 

If someone want's to distinguish themselves as a video wad reviewer, I think a great way to do it would be take a more analytical approach. Something akin to Matthewmatosis (or Tim Rogers if they want to get crazy). Focus more on what goal a particular mapper was reaching for in the maps they make and in what ways the failed and succeeded to reach that goal, rather than focusing on the reviewers view of the quality of individual levels.

 

Would love to start a series like that myself, but if I ever find the time to ramp up my involvement in the community again I'd probably just get back into mapping instead 😛

[PasokonDeacon]

2 minutes ago, Processingcontrol said:

Definitely some good ideas here

 

If someone want's to distinguish themselves as a video wad reviewer, I think a great way to do it would be take a more analytical approach. Something akin to Matthewmatosis (or Tim Rogers if they want to get crazy). Focus more on what goal a particular mapper was reaching for in the maps they make and in what ways the failed and succeeded to reach that goal, rather than focusing on the reviewers view of the quality of individual levels.

 

Would love to start a series like that myself, but if I ever find the time to ramp up my involvement in the community again I'd probably just get back into mapping instead 😛

Another big reason to have more essay/review videos would be balancing out the enormous amount of mod/map releases we've had since the pandemic started. There's so much made which just disappears after a week and deserves better. I'm fine making demos and feedback posts like usual, but something more is missing.

 

Unlike with the kinds of games those long-form creators usually cover, we have the advantage of easily displaying map/WAD editors on video in a way that laypeople can understand. I could talk about something cool in a map even without that, but it's more fun to show how that setpiece/sequence/asset was constructed, too, and why it works. It'd be useful not just for appreciating the work involved, but helping mappers/modders come up with their own take.

[baja blast rd.]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:44 PM, PasokonDeacon said:

Another big reason to have more essay/review videos would be balancing out the enormous amount of mod/map releases we've had since the pandemic started.

 

What would help is also a lot more high-effort written reviews, which don't have the additional bottleneck of "hours of video editing." It seems to be a form that is gradually fading. My favorite Doom reviews are Not Jabba's (NtC and The Roots) and Woolie's here. It's not a space that is remotely saturated. This thread was created for that purpose (so far only one person has used it properly :P), but of course nothing is stopping anyone from just posting them as separate threads or in a "my reviews" thread. 

[PasokonDeacon]

Just now, baja blast rd. said:

 

What would help is also a lot more high-effort written reviews, which don't have the additional bottleneck of "hours of video editing." It seems to be a form that is gradually fading. My favorite Doom reviews are Not Jabba's (NtC and The Roots) and Woolie's here. It's not a space that is remotely saturated. This thread was created for that purpose (so far only person has used it properly :P), but of course nothing is stopping anyone from just posting them as separate threads or in a "my reviews" thread. 

Absolutely. They ought to go hand in hand, but social media algorithms (and highly variable literary engagement in the Anglosphere in general) comically favor video over text at this point. I've started submitting reviews to the Wadazine and would like to do more long-form looks at interesting maps, but then I get back to mapping or have to deal with life. It's a constant time management struggle, playing and reading and mapping and still doing my other hobbies/obligations. Perhaps we need a video on the art of reviewing/giving feedback on maps, whether just for a casual playthrough or for really elaborate analyses.

[General Roasterock]

19 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

 

What would help is also a lot more high-effort written reviews, which don't have the additional bottleneck of "hours of video editing."

You don't mean...

 

READING?!?

 

Spoiler

Thanks for the links guys, these will definitely tithe me over until the ideas overflow into actual creation.

 

[elic]

37 minutes ago, General Roasterock said:

You don't mean...

 

READING?!?

 

  Hide contents

Thanks for the links guys, these will definitely tithe me over until the ideas overflow into actual creation.

 

If you want more content for your review fix, @kmxexii has put an insane amount of work into ONEMANDOOM

 

...and if you really hate reading, you can check out the Doom Radio audio reviews

[LadyMistDragon]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:16 AM, i suck at nicknames said:

 

Sunlust is a 32-level megawad which is very very popular for its difficulty (X-tier easily, and yet most of the levels stand out for having extremely smart/calibrated/memorable fights and set-pieces) and for its time, a very unique minimalist-yet-modern looking visual style....I'd go so far as to call it probably the most influential wad made this decade given so many mappers nowadays run with the Ribbiks style of combat and aesthetic. 

It really got notoriety after decino beat the entire wad from a pistol start...you should check out his YT if you havent already...its a treat :)

 

Also Ribbiks the GOAT no cap

 

 

I dont think for a second MtPain resents viewers nagging him to play it because of some perception that he wouldnt be able to handle it- man has beaten Scythe 2, HR/HR2, Disturbia (which I gave up for being too difficult many months ago), COTEOE and other extremely difficult maps/wads....man is good enough that Im sure he wouldnt even mind playing something like the Stardate series.   

 

I think its more everyone spamming the same wad over and over again which can get annoying....so kudos to him for sticking with his "Sunlust-will-be-the-final-episode" thing. 

 

 

 

 

Also, the reality that he's ending the show before too long gives the decision much more sense. So we may not get any of the Floatsam and Toilet if the Gods-ype stuff. Maybe Stargate 20X7 or even 6, but those are the only ones that would make sense  I just don't see Slaughterfest XX as being a likely candidate with what he'd proritize

 

 

 

 

[Doomkid]

6 hours ago, Redead-ITA said:

you can't live on doom wads forever.

Is this a challenge?!

[Maribo]

The most recent video and the last few posts since that video in this thread made me sit down and re-watch the Mucus Flow video again, and it just makes me smile... MtPain, like most people, is at his best when he's trying to relate a deeply personal experience with something. I chose that video because it's different, it's outside the bounds of the Dean of Doom style, it's just a bare relation of experience and an attempt at raw connection, and I think it's my favorite MtPain video. The Dean of Doom format is great, it's lovely, and fun and entertaining, and it has these moments like the Mucus Flow video that are my favorite parts, the parts where MtPain is just gushing his heart out over something he loves so much. That's what I watch for, really, and based on what MtPain said about doing one-offs even after he officially ends the show... I'm not worried at all about there being a hole to fill or whatever. It felt to me like as long as he continues to come across Doom creations that he loves, he'll make something for them, and that's all he had to say.

 

And specifically about the Mucus Flow video... I think I admire that video because if you're out here posting on Doomworld, or lurking these threads, or watching decino and A1s and whoever on YouTube, you probably have your own Mucus Flow, or maybe even multiple, that float around inside your head all the time. I know I do, Oneira, Rocket For My Valentine, Elysion, The Mucus Flow, Grove, Revenge of Demon House....

 

[i suck at nicknames]

9 hours ago, Maribo said:

The most recent video and the last few posts since that video in this thread made me sit down and re-watch the Mucus Flow video again, and it just makes me smile... MtPain, like most people, is at his best when he's trying to relate a deeply personal experience with something. I chose that video because it's different, it's outside the bounds of the Dean of Doom style, it's just a bare relation of experience and an attempt at raw connection, and I think it's my favorite MtPain video. The Dean of Doom format is great, it's lovely, and fun and entertaining, and it has these moments like the Mucus Flow video that are my favorite parts, the parts where MtPain is just gushing his heart out over something he loves so much. That's what I watch for, really, and based on what MtPain said about doing one-offs even after he officially ends the show... I'm not worried at all about there being a hole to fill or whatever. It felt to me like as long as he continues to come across Doom creations that he loves, he'll make something for them, and that's all he had to say.

 

And specifically about the Mucus Flow video... I think I admire that video because if you're out here posting on Doomworld, or lurking these threads, or watching decino and A1s and whoever on YouTube, you probably have your own Mucus Flow, or maybe even multiple, that float around inside your head all the time. I know I do, Oneira, Rocket For My Valentine, Elysion, The Mucus Flow, Grove, Revenge of Demon House....

 

I agree. 

 

His segment on Grove makes me tear up. 

[baja blast rd.]

Re Lost Civilization: 

 

This was a good episode.

 

The Bjorn Lynne bgm selections are amazing -- one of those things that makes the opening stretch so amazing -- and Jaska had good taste in Jimmy MIDIs. Oceanside is incidentally the first map in the wad I'd want to live in (...as long as I can be assured that really tall lift will work forever -- what if the barrels contain the substance that is greasing it), but speaking practically, I'd have to pick one of the maps with more food in it. One thing I love about Lost Civilization's design is that, for all of its sprawl and overscale, there's actually a surprisingly high amount of intentionality behind everything that made it into the wad. There is very little "mapping for mapping sake" in the sense of familiar tropey abstract constructs sketched over and over to fill space. Everything that made it in feels like it was modeled after something real (or real enough in someone's imagination to feel real). It's really inspiring, and feels kind of inhuman. Along with some of Ribbiks post-Sunlust wads, it showcases the power of "ideal journal" style mapping where you keep possible fragments of possible maps -- maybe different maps -- in one file and let maps come into existence naturally around that.  

 

I want to forgive the comparatively "weaker" stretches (which are shorter anyway) and the parts I initially sort of bounced off of, as sort of the price for that wild, unselfconscious exploration of ideas, but I can't always do that; 15-17 feel like they were made in a recharging batteries period. 18 and 20 and the interiors of maps like 04/09/13 prove that Jaska can do "nondescript building innards" with as much inspiration as natural scenes or building facades. Either way, I sometimes refer to Lost Civilization to illustrate the concept of how something doesn't have to be perfect to be perfect. Evenness of quality can be overrated sometimes; "sometimes transcendental, sometimes rough" beats out "always good and polished, but never great, never makes a really deep mark" to me.

 

I have played wads that I think of as great private experiences (zoning out in them, hyperfixating on certain parts, or studying them), and others that are more like great social experiences (basically, spamming clips on Discord of cool stuff from it), but because of its atmosphere, architecture, worldbuilding, and mood on one hand, and, well, largely Doomcute on the other, but also its Big Ideas parts, Lost Civilization does great at both.

 

Lost Civilization's gameplay is understated in that the fight concepts, staging, etc. don't really result in a lot of "that one fight" moments -- combat is more like an ever-present ambient accompaniment. But it does a really good job of avoiding the common pitfalls of combat in pseduorealist spaces -- kludgy grinds through lots of meat, or obnoxious pace-killing hitscanners. I don't require myself to get 100% kills (and tend to skip window dressing if I would get tired of killing it), I forgo saves in easier maps (or even long stretches of longer maps), I also love taking advantage of emergent gameplay (aka "fucking around"). There's a lot of savory tension in existing in these maps for long stretches of time and trying to avoid getting killed. So Lost Civilization vibes really well with how I play, and I'd give the combat around a 7.5/10 or 8/10 (or in my grades, an A-).  

 

(I had started a map-by-map commentary way back, but it was on pace to be like 5000 words long.) 

[Jaska]

4 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Re Lost Civilization: 

...

 

(I had started a map-by-map commentary way back, but it was on pace to be like 5000 words long.) 

 

That was a great read, thanks very much! For the () part, I would love to read that too, even if unfinished.