The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, Lucius Wooding said:

Playing devil's advocate here, but:

"You're at fault if you don't like my work" = pretentious

 

Also I think it'd be cool if this conversation had its own thread, since it's a much bigger topic and some interesting discussion could come of it.

true, a dedicated thread for that would make an interesting discussion.

Another good one is "going through the motions"
yes, this map has great fundamentals but since it didn't have anything special it's mediocre.

[Chalibluefin]

7 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

"overrated", "pretentious", "souless" = I don't like it, but I have to put blame on the creator for utterly failing to entertain me and not my personal taste and preferences. 

Noticing some pearl-clutching.

But hey if people react negatively to someone not liking their maps by all means prove them wrong. That's one of the best things about being a mapper is improving the craft and making fun maps.

[jmac]

5 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

"overrated", "pretentious", "souless" = I don't like it, but I have to put blame on the creator for utterly failing to entertain me and not my personal taste and preferences. 

Imagine how insufferable a reviewer would be if they had to say it was their own fault whenever they had a negative experience with a map.

[jazzmaster9]

16 minutes ago, Chalibluefin said:

Noticing some pearl-clutching.

We'll considering i've been mostly in agreement with the criticsm made in the video, Im not sure what you are on about since this was more a statement about media in general.

 

Come on, we're better than this "yur a fanboy" argument ffs. At some point you gotta roll your eyes when you see people call maps from Eviternity or AA called "souless"

Edited September 5, 2022 by jazzmaster9

[xScavengerWolfx]

And i got a feeling this is getting so out of hand that it will get locked again. Just saying.

[LadyMistDragon]

Yeah, let's not drag this out any more....

[Thelokk]

2 hours ago, Doomkid said:

 

I’m wondering if it would have been humanly possible for Wilster to make it more obvious that this is a joke.. He said BTS ffs (that K-Pop group) rofl

 

I’m wondering if it would have been humanly possible for me to make it more obvious that I was joking. Yet, you missed it.

 

See where I'm going?

[xScavengerWolfx]

14 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Yeah, let's not drag this out any more....

I agree. I mean i said what i wanted to say earlier and now i'm just watching every one flipping the tables on why BTS (i stole that from Wilster, blame him not me), is better and why everyone thinks Mt. pain is wrong.

 

But like i said in my comment "I'm just another face behind the screen and i'm just typing out my comment for everyone to read".

[LadyMistDragon]

I actually liked Wilster's comment because he seemed to be mocking the situation as a whole and not taking sides. Although I think it was clear lokk's post was also a joke, doomkid just missed it.

[baja blast rd.]

Yeah it seems like the actual people who had stuff at stake in the argument are not replying at this point and the discussion is going in (broken) circles.

 

So it would be a good idea to focus on other important discussion points now, like e2m1's boat. (Or alternatively just let the thread sink to the bottom of the ocean for a while, like e1m24-25's boat.)

[LadyMistDragon]

Yeah, why didn't Mt.Pain point out that beautiful, beautiful boat? What a masterful accomplishment! Just think, Sandy Petersen wanted to convey to us the meaning of life and what it means to be a Mormon through the placement of a simple metaphor.

 

...or he could've not even thought of it as a boat and just a platform in some liquid that's red.

[Tarnsman]

1 hour ago, jazzmaster9 said:

At some point you gotta roll your eyes when you see people call maps from Eviternity or AA called "souless"

 

Calling a map "soulless" is fine. Even if I think the map is a masterpiece. A map can be technically well made but when you play it, you think it feels manufactured and lacks identity. Criticism of the actual product doesn't need to be nice. It's about what your experience with it. I don't agree with getting upset over that. Evaluating criticism should be about the critic's approach or if they're trying to get the wrong thing out of something (like if someone plays DTWID and is upset that it's not Sunder) it should be about the process and not about them liking or disliking a thing.

 

I don't think it's fair to compare the experience of Doom to a far more passive experience like a film or music.

Spoiler

 

When you watch a movie there's a very clear intended presentation. If a modern film is in black and white, the director clearly wanted you to watch it in black and white. (Which you can argue is a good or bad choice or whatever, because it's a clear thing you can engage with.) If someone dramatically alters their movie watching experience by say changing their color settings on the TV, or putting it on mute, or watches the film in 10 minute segments every other day most people would say that the person did not properly experience the film. 

 

With video games, particularly Doom the player has control over their experience and the product is based around that control. The player's actions matter a lot in Doom and change things drastically.

 

As soon as you select "New Game" you are making a choice that is going to heavily impact your experience. Picking a skill level. Many people automatically choose UV, despite not needing to play every mapset on UV. Which has been a pretty well discussed and contentious topic that clearly bothers many mappers. See: Ribbiks famously not allowing people to play Magnolia on UV until they beat HMP. Right there the player has the ability to completely ignore authorial intent, if they're even aware of it. UV might be designed to be played with knowledge of the maps ahead of time and balanced around the mapper still being able to have fun playing their maps despite knowing every trap and playtesting them a bunch of times. So if you choose to play UV blind that choice is going to have a big impact.

 

Then once you exit the first map you make another choice. Do you pistol start or play continuous? That's another choice. Mappers can remove it with a death exit and many do choose to do so. If they don't, most people do balance around pistol starting. But then sometimes they also balance a bit for continuous so sometimes pistol starts are allowed to be a little deprived as a way to attempt to provide that balance. The great backpack purge of BTSX dew oversaw was driven by continuous balance.

 

Then how you play each map matters. Your personal skill is going to impact everything first and foremost. First playthrough versus replaying a map changes things as well. If it's a gimmick map, understanding the gimmick. How well you deal with puzzles in certain maps (more applicable in the 90s than now). What restrictions or rules you force upon yourself while playing the maps. Blind 100% is a category that absolutely no one balances for or intends to be played but it's now a thing. There's a big discussion in "Unpopular Doom Opinions" about that.

That's not even getting into adding mods or other ways the player is free to further drastically alter the playing experience.

 

 

[Endless]

2 hours ago, ZethXM said:

with Keith Emerson suspended in the air playing keys spinning all around. 

Hey now, no need to bring so much violence here.

 

[Dusty_Rhodes]

7 minutes ago, Endless said:

Hey now, no need to bring so much violence here.

 

Yeah let's hijack the argument with ELP posting! Way more enjoyable

[jazzmaster9]

I will admit that i got very carried away in this thread, in multiple occasions, so apologies. Though I hope this doesn't come across as me hating on MtPain, because I do respect his work a lot and will watch all of the episodes, Day 1, until we make it to Sunlust.

 

I was simply taken aback by the out of left field joke that seems very uncharacteristic of what I expected from the show and reacted negatively despite pretty much agreeing with a lot of the criticism and opinions about E2.

[Ludi]

This is the stupidest argument I've seen on my year on DW. He's right- mappers can have huge egos. They deserve to be criticized for such. It's not a personal attack, it's the truth. 

 

EDIT: I didn't realize a resolution was reached, carry on and disregard this :^)

[Doomkid]

3 hours ago, Thelokk said:

I’m wondering if it would have been humanly possible for me to make it more obvious that I was joking. Yet, you missed it.

 

See where I'm going?

no

[heliumlamb]

not a hater, just bewildered

i would just hope to see more future invocation of "no 100% if its just not worth it", because letting that compulsion to Always Be On That Damn UVMax take its grip on the psyche absolutely comes with the potential do more harm on one's enjoyment and fun, especially in the cases of large, less linear sprawlers, and in my experince thats just not worth it. If anything, this has me heavily inclined to turn off automap/hud level stats for good. Freedom Of Missing Out

 

Spoiler

"braindead takes"

what's stopping a set of one person's 30-odd speedmaps from exhibiting this "magnum opus syndrome" as well?

 

hearing the bit about inflated egos (you can measure it with the function i provided pages ago) came across as odd, coming from someone who, in their criticisms, talks about the authors beyond "this person made this map". often to the point where it could sometimes be considered an ego inflating act in its own right, depending on the recipient of the praise of course.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by heliumlamb : posted in progress ooops

[jmac]

9 minutes ago, heliumlamb said:

not a hater, just bewildered

i would just hope to see more future invocation of "no 100% if its just not worth it", because letting that compulsion to Always Be On That Damn UVMax take its grip on the psyche absolutely comes with the potential do more harm on one's enjoyment and fun, especially in the cases of large, less linear sprawlers, and in my experince thats just not worth it. If anything, this has me heavily inclined to turn off automap/hud level stats for good. Freedom Of Missing Out

 

  Reveal hidden contents

"braindead takes"

what's stopping a set of one person's 30-odd speedmaps from exhibiting this "magnum opus syndrome" as well?

 

hearing the bit about inflated egos (you can measure it with the function i provided pages ago) came across as odd, coming from someone who, in their criticisms, talks about the authors beyond "this person made this map". often to the point where it could sometimes be considered an ego inflating act in its own right, depending on the recipient of the praise of course.

 

I think when trying to review maps like that it can easily become a no-win situation. On one hand, you'd think the most fair thing to do for the mapper is to experience everything they have to offer, and for all you know, those 10 monsters and 1 secret you missed could've been something outstanding. On the other hand, you can easily make your experience much worse, which it seems to have for some of the maps in this latest episode. You can get caught in a trap of trying to find some aspect of the map that you've been missing, which will make it all come together, when really the map just doesn't line up with what you like on a fundamental level, and you're only making yourself hate it more.

[xScavengerWolfx]

And i see the cycle is going around and around and around.

 

Can't we just drop it? I mean holy hell, just because someone gave an honest review and criticism on something does not mean y'all can go full bore on what someone said. I'm still waiting for this thread to get locked again because it's getting out of hand and i think it's super toxic to keep this cycle going nowhere.

 

I will say is this: If Mt. Pain reviewed my map or maps and gave an honest review and criticism i would accept it because it helps me out in the long run. Would i throw a fit because someone don't like my map, as mario would say in hotel mario "no" i would take it and build off of it.

 

If this thread does get locked again i hope it will be a reminder of what happens when you take something too far and not let it go. Sorry but i still stand for what i said and saying now. Can't change my mind and can't tell me i'm wrong. Everyone has options and it's ok to have options.....but going around and around and around over and over and over it get boring to see.

[StodgyAyatollah]

Review guy gives opinion based on his perception of a piece of work, as review guys do. Some creators and fans of said work get upset that someone publicly criticized the thing they worked on/enjoyed, as creators/fans do. Then tribalist bickering starts as if subjective opinions actually warrant heated debate. This is why I'm proud to just be some rando posting here and not a "member of the community."

[LadyMistDragon]

Hey, no need to continue it. People were actually somewhat settling down and you complain about postings more appropriate to the previous pages. Scavenger's right, though. Nothing's getting solved.

[Horus]

36 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

I'm still waiting for this thread to get locked again because it's getting out of hand and i think it's super toxic to keep this cycle going nowhere.

In case you haven’t done so already, the most efficient way of signalling this is by using the Report Post functionality.

[cannonball]

4 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Yeah it seems like the actual people who had stuff at stake in the argument are not replying at this point and the discussion is going in (broken) circles.

 

So it would be a good idea to focus on other important discussion points now, like e2m1's boat. (Or alternatively just let the thread sink to the bottom of the ocean for a while, like e1m24-25's boat.)

In reality, we only ever talk about the boats that sink and never the ones that don't. 

There's a really worthwhile metaphor in this. 

 

Just for the record - The visplane overflow is an excellent vessel in one of the best examples of world building in a vanilla megawad. A great first map.

[baja blast rd.]

32 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Hey, no need to continue it. People were actually somewhat settling down and you complain about postings more appropriate to the previous pages. Scavenger's right, though. Nothing's getting solved.

 

It seems inevitable that it'll continue indefinitely (because all it takes is one person not reading and repeating one of the two arguments as if it was new). So let's let this thread cool down for a bit.

 

[Foxstiel]

 

[Vladguy]

We get to see more of the Dean of Doom school! That's cool.

 

Spoiler

Really strange how MtPain dismissed his class right as the Delinquent talked about nobody being at the school... Is he hiding something?

 

[KeaganDunn]

1 minute ago, Vladguy said:

 

  Hide contents

Really strange how MtPain dismissed his class right as the Delinquent talked about nobody being at the school... Is he hiding something?

 

 

Now I'm suspicious and intrigued. And I'm not sure which one I am the most.

[Firedust]

Nova was a cool concept - although the third installment wasn't much of a newbie project but more of a veteran community chest.

 

Hopefully, we will see a continuation of the series!

[cannonball]

7 minutes ago, Firedust said:

Nova was a cool concept - although the third installment wasn't much of a newbie project but more of a veteran community chest.

 

Hopefully, we will see a continuation of the series!

Actually all of the mappers for Nova 3 were new to mapping (or at least they were when the project was started). It was Nova 2 that had alumni so to speak.