The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Dynamo]

1 hour ago, Benjogami said:

I just don't accept that the wad shouldn't be pistol started or that bad pistol starts shouldn't be called out.

Sure. But when MtPain states, as he does in the video, that "he wanted to experience [MAP24] the way the author intended", by pistol starting a map from a megawad notoriously not balanced around it, it comes off as more than a little disingenuous. Which is to say: if you want to make life harder for yourself by pistol starting, that's totally fine and more power to you, but blaming the mappers from decades ago for your own decision after the fact is completely unfair, especially given how undeservedly mean some of the complaints towards various authors (Chris Klie, Thomas Moller and a lot of the MM1 mappers to name just a few) ended up being in various episodes. Furthermore, I say this as someone who tests every map he makes through pistol start, and I regularly recommend to people whose projects I test to also build their maps with pistol start considerations. If MtPain liked 90s maps more than he does, as he clearly does not for the most part, by this point he might have tried to play Cleimos 2 on pistol start on his show - now that would be a sight to behold...

 

EDIT: On a more positive note, despite this and some other setbacks, I do want to say that I quite enjoyed this episode and I felt like it did a good job at bringing out the uniqueness of some of the Requiem maps. Even in the case of maps that I like and MtPain didn't (MAP12 being a notable example) I still felt the review was at least interesting. There are a few anomalies though. For example, what is going on at 6:02? The video talks about how boring it is to fight pinkies in that context, when there is a berserk pack standing millimeters away from the player, which would make punching demons much faster and more entertaining as it would then be possible to carve a way out of the trap before the pinkies converge upon the player. Also as a note: MAP21 originates, I believe, from a partially unfinished megawad called Beyond Doom: The Apocalypse - it's MAP18 in that one. That wad is extremely bizarre, with custom enemies such as walking barrels and zany new weapons, so it is not surprising that the map itself ends up being the fever dream that it is, considering where it originated from. This would have been cool to mention in the video but unfortunately nobody had written about the connection on the doomwiki so it slipped under the radar. Still a fun factoid I think.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Dynamo

[BiZ]

4 hours ago, roadworx said:

h.

 

as much as i appreciate your thoughts on modern wads, mtpain, i reeeeally wish you would realize that a lot of 90s wads weren't meant for pistol start. they were meant to be continuous experiences; the whole was oftentimes more important than the sum of its parts back then. pistol starts were only done if you died or were doing a speedrun. if you truly want to judge these maps based on how the authors meant them to be played, then you can't pistol start every single wad you play. i appreciate you, and i appreciate your opinions on modern wads, but come on now.

 

and i don't even really like requiem that much!! it's a cramped, undercooked mess of a megawad

 

We can look to the past to understand what the standard was then, but like all work, it will inevitably be judged by the standards now.

 

life can only be understood by looking backwards, but it must be lived forward...or something like that.

[roadworx]

4 minutes ago, BiZ said:

 

We can look to the past to understand what the standard was then, but like all work, it will inevitably be judged by the standards now.

 

life can only be understood by looking backwards, but it must be lived forward...or something like that.

if you're a professional literary critic, and you give a choose your own adventure book a low score because you read through it linearly and didn't understand it as a result, then nobody will take you seriously.

 

also, you do realize that continuous based wads are still made to this day, right? look at the magenta spire, it's made with this exact mentality

[Gibbitudinous]

Not every map needs to be easy or experienced at its most complete/fun from pistol start but they should be feasible to pistol start since pistol start was the back-up option from the beginning if you messed up so badly that you didn't have a viable save to reload from.

[Noiser]

I think mapsets should be made with any rulesets we want to.

[LadyMistDragon]

I dunno....there were only a few maps (07, probably 29 too) where it didn't feel all that balanced from a pistol start.

2 hours ago, Firedust said:

Ahahaha he really tore Requiem a new one

TBF memento mori 2 aged so much better than the two other megawads in the trilogy

Does he mention that in the video though? And having played it, I'm not sure I agree. Memento Mori 2 has some maps with serious bloat to them. It's probably a little less on the dull side than Memento Mori 1 but putting Map 15 and other such exceptions of incredibly strong maps aside, idk.

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[Firedust]

10 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

I dunno....there were only a few maps (07, probably 29 too) where it didn't feel all that balanced from a pistol start.

Does he mention that in the video though? And having played it, I'm not sure I agree. Memento Mori 2 has some maps with serious bloat to them. It's probably a little less on the dull side than Memento Mori 1 but putting Map 15 and other such exceptions aside, idk.

He doesn't mention MM2 explicitly save a few map comparisons - I was just expressing my own opinion. Will be interested in his take on MM2 regardless, but surely it can't sink lower than that C- for Requiem lmao, which is only exacerbated by the fact that he's usually fairly generous with his final mapset grades (plenty of A's, A-'s, and B+'s  awared in the show iirc)

[Firedust]

Also, to give my worthless two cents on what some of the kind folks are saying in the thread about pistol starts and what not - I'd like to echo the sentiment that mappers are obviously free to do whatever the hell they like with their own creations, so if you want to make something balanced for continuous play, then by all means do so, BUT please specify it in the txt document, because otherwise players will automatically assume that pistol starts have been accounted for (they've been a thing since... OG Doom afaik lol) and they will criticise the mapper(s), justifiedly so imo, by virtue of not being warned before playing. I have no idea what Requiem's story is with regards to this thing, so MtPain27's criticisms being fair or not rests entirely on whether there's something in the text file that explicitly states NOT BALANCED FOR PISTOL STARTS, which btw is NOT the same as CHALLENGING for pistol starters.

[BiZ]

1 hour ago, roadworx said:

if you're a professional literary critic, and you give a choose your own adventure book a low score because you read through it linearly and didn't understand it as a result, then nobody will take you seriously.

 

also, you do realize that continuous based wads are still made to this day, right? look at the magenta spire, it's made with this exact mentality

 

heh, good thing he isn't reviewing choose your own adventure books.

 

What I took from your original post (and this is just my interpretation) is that you thought the review format should change to accommodate this wad or other old wads. I don't personally see the value in it and would rather the criteria and metrics for judgement stay consistent, otherwise the outcomes (grades) are useless. If an A level is "fun and visually memorable" this week, but "short and has ammo for the gun I picked up in the last map" next week, then the grades get muddy.

 

So my point was that while maybe this thing was done a certain way in the past, now its being looked at with this different lens and it either stands on its own legs or doesn't. And this always happens through time inevitably.

[Gibbitudinous]

The grades are frankly the least useful or interesting part of any Dean of Doom episode, as grades are wont to be for most anything. The whole conceit of quantifying the quality and challenge of a Doom map is just an inherently pretentious but sadly normalized and expected way of framing sentiments like "I liked/disliked it" or "I found it easy/hard".

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, BiZ said:

 

heh, good thing he isn't reviewing choose your own adventure books.

 

What I took from your original post (and this is just my interpretation) is that you thought the review format should change to accommodate this wad or other old wads. I don't personally see the value in it and would rather the criteria and metrics for judgement stay consistent, otherwise the outcomes (grades) are useless. If an A level is "fun and visually memorable" this week, but "short and has ammo for the gun I picked up in the last map" next week, then the grades get muddy.

 

So my point was that while maybe this thing was done a certain way in the past, now its being looked at with this different lens and it either stands on its own legs or doesn't. And this always happens through time inevitably.

then here's a solution to that: don't review wads that are meant for continuous. if you're going to judge something based on a specific playstyle, why try to force a wad that isn't meant to be for that playstyle to fit into that? if anything, that muddies the waters far more than if you were to review the wad based on how it's supposed to be played.

 

not to mention straight up insulting mappers because you just can't see their qualities. thomas möller, for example, is one of my favorite mappers because of how his layouts so often intersect in ways you simply don't see in most maps as well as how nasty some of his combat can be. it's actually really unique (not to mention difficult as hell to do when creating a layout) and even today you often don't see it outside a few examples in solitary maps. if you don't like it regardless, then that's perfectly fine. say the map is shit in your eyes, explain why, and move on. don't insult the creator because you can't see past your own narrow view of how a doom map should be. i know it can be great for comedy n stuff, but...come on now. instead of just shitting on the guy, at least be creative or something.

 

3 hours ago, Gibbitudinous said:

The grades are frankly the least useful or interesting part of any Dean of Doom episode, as grades are wont to be for most anything. The whole conceit of quantifying the quality and challenge of a Doom map is just an inherently pretentious but sadly normalized and expected way of framing sentiments like "I liked/disliked it" or "I found it easy/hard".

we get it, you're too cool for anything describing how you feel about something in a way that extends beyond an elementary level of reading.

 

mtpain's language can be pretentious and overly flowery (and the guy has an english degree so that kinda just comes with the territory lmao), but reviewing something and giving recommendations to others really isn't.

Edited September 5, 2023 by roadworx

[Roofi]

3 hours ago, Gibbitudinous said:

The grades are frankly the least useful or interesting part of any Dean of Doom episode, as grades are wont to be for most anything. The whole conceit of quantifying the quality and challenge of a Doom map is just an inherently pretentious but sadly normalized and expected way of framing sentiments like "I liked/disliked it" or "I found it easy/hard".

 

For me it's one of the most important part. Mtpain27's videos would not be the same without those grades. Of course it's inherently subjective but it's always thrilling when Mtpain gives an A+ to a map for instance.

[Monsieur E]

The discussion around classic wads and not being designed around pistol starts got me digging around a bit and I found a couple of relevant discussion points from Capellan.

From the Requiem DWMC thread: 
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1341217
"Requiem is for both continuous and pistol start play"

And from the Alien Vendetta DWMC thread:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1671385
"If either Requiem or MM2 had continuous testing, I'm not aware of it. Most testing was done on a level by level basis, as they were submitted."

@Capellan Hope you don't mind the ping, I think it'd be interesting if you could give your insight on the pistol start vs continuous play perspective during the 90s. 

[WH-Wilou84]

To add up to Monsieur E's post, are we indeed sure Requiem wasn't designed with Pistol start in mind as well ?

I mean...
- Weapons are given in each map
- Maps were made by different people, and surely not in the order in which we play them (balancing them for continuous play only would then be a chore for mappers who'd have to wait for the finished maplist to rebalance their maps accordingly)
- UV Max demos exist for each map, which means that each map is at least playable on Pistol start

 

As regards to map 24, the text file explicitly states that you have to "find the remains" of your fallen comrades to proceed. Ammo drought and the need to find the not-secret ammo caches are the core concepts of this map, and these would simply be ruined if played continuously.

MtPain was indeed harsh on some maps though, particularly on maps 06 and 10 which I like immensely. But hey, to each their own.
 

[roadworx]

ah, was there no continuous testing? i guess i was mistaken then :p

 

if it was in fact designed for pistol start with only minor considerations for people playing through the map continuously, then, welp. i look like a complete ass lmfao. and, if that is the case, it kinda makes the ammo starvation in mm2 and requiem a bit odd as it feels like something designed to provide difficulty for people coming in from a previous map with lots of ammo. was it not, @Capellan? (sorry to ping you btw, i'm legitimately curious now. i might have to rethink how i'm making the wad i'm making rn if that's the case)

Edited September 5, 2023 by roadworx

[Roofi]

From my experience, I played hundred wads made before 2000 and few of them were very hostile to pistol-start. I played Requiem on pistol start years ago and it was fine most of the time. 

 

And as modern mappers, mapmakers from the 90' had to individually test their map.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Roofi

[Devalaous]

Reminds me, Capellan's notes on Requiem are why my Requiem patch swaps the CWILV graphics for Chaos Zone and Excoriations around. Kind of surprised MtPain didn't mention that trivia.

[Yasha]

I think this is a similar situation to whenever he plays Ribbiks' stuff: Ribbiks clearly states that HMP is the intended experience for most people and UV is only for god players but MtPain always plays them on UV and then spends half his review going "this was a torture chamber of misery where I had to play every fight 30 times over" and like...yeah. That's what happens when you play Swim with The Whales on UV lol

[Capellan]

I'm seeing references to an MM "trilogy", which is not a thing that exists.  Requiem was a standalone project. It is not an MM project. Nor is it a TNT project.

 

Project coordination for both MM2 and Requiem was done via email, with files generally loaded to and from an FTP site. Levels came in when they came in and were played (or not) by those that wanted to 

 

I'm confident that TiC at least played all the MM2 maps as they got them, and quite possibly also did play the maps in continuous. I expect they also tried the maps on co-op.

 

Requiem lacked the same level of coordination, and particularly at the end maps were thrown in wherever there were gaps. I very much doubt anyone played all 32 levels (or even the main 30) continuous before release.

 

As far as mid 90s play culture went, I and my circle all played continuous. Opinions of saving varied; some of us saved often, others only at the start of the map.

 

I do remember that Demonfear was expressly tested on both continuous and pistol start because by 1995 the latter model of play was definitely quite common.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

I said it before and I'll say it again. The strict rules about 100% kills and secrets, and pistol starts can hinder the experience. Some maps/wads just aren't meant to be played that way. 

 

Edit: I see now that requiem was in fact tested for pistol starts. So I need to reconsider my position. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Sneezy McGlassFace

[jazzmaster9]

14 hours ago, roadworx said:

as much as i appreciate your thoughts on modern wads, mtpain, i reeeeally wish you would realize that a lot of 90s wads weren't meant for pistol start.

So much this. every thing will be painful and bad if you play it with an unintended disadvantage. 

Expecting every map to conform to being Blind UV-Max, and Pistol Start friendly is a recipe for disaster and unintended disappointment.

Edited September 5, 2023 by jazzmaster9

[philcul]

The blind UV max trend seems to be the bane of every mappers existence. 

[Dynamo]

Quote

As far as mid 90s play culture went, I and my circle all played continuous. Opinions of saving varied; some of us saved often, others only at the start of the map.

Interesting...

 

Also, I should note that I don't demand or ask for any changes to be made to the show: it is MtPain's biz and he should run it however he wants. And I think "disagreeing is part of the fun" holds as true as ever. I just think certain comments on mappers specifically should probably be avoided, because that then changes from being a personal opinion to being a personal attack, often against people with whom few have interacted directly in recent times.

[LSC Lasico]

18 minutes ago, AdNauseam said:

The blind UV max trend seems to be the bane of every mappers existence. 

I dont wish for it to go away. If mappers get slightly creative, they can completely fuck these players over. That will be hilarious and funny. And also very fun to play for me on UV max blind.

[DreadWanderer]

I'm really not very invested in this discussion, but I've been reading the reactions to the latest Dean of Doom episode and I get the feeling that some criticisms miss the mark.

Beyond the quite complicated issue of whether or not we should go for pistol starts for "pre-modern" wads when reviewing them, some of them might simply be not that fun to play regardless of the choice because of other factors (questionable design decisions, stale visuals, too much/too little linearity, and so on). I much prefer to bite the bullet and judge the situation like MtPain27 did - with a few exceptions, the late 90s were a nadir of development and creativity, and many people thought Doom modding and mapping were going to die due to the advent of games that were more advanced technologically for the time (think of Half-Life and Quake 3 as two prominent examples). Fortunately for us, that did not happen, but the reason it did not happen is precisely because the community upped its game through milestones like Alien Vendetta and Scythe 2 in the early to mid 2000s (and even those wads can be fairly criticized). 

It's perfectly fine to have some sort of nostalgic attachment to a janky wad from 25 years ago because it's the first wad you ever played when you were 10 years old or whatever, but that doesn't automatically mean that they should get preferential treatment when it comes to evaluating them. It's fair to contextualize and historicize criticism, but it's also equally fair not to ignore the absolutely amazing progress made over the last quarter of a century.

Lastly, I think that the obsession with UV-max playthroughs (whether blind or not) is indeed a problem, but it's a much more general problem that is not limited to the rediscovery of old wads with completely different design philosophies. I'm guilty of this myself to some extent, but at least I'm thoughtful enough to not punch above my weight in terms of difficulty.

[roadworx]

1 minute ago, DreadWanderer said:

Beyond the quite complicated issue of whether or not we should go for pistol starts for "pre-modern" wads when reviewing them, some of them might simply be not that fun to play regardless of the choice because of other factors (questionable design decisions, stale visuals, too much/too little linearity, and so on). I much prefer to bite the bullet and judge the situation like MtPain27 did - with a few exceptions, the late 90s were a nadir of development and creativity, and many people thought Doom modding and mapping were going to die due to the advent of games that were more advanced technologically for the time (think of Half-Life and Quake 3 as two prominent examples). Fortunately for us, that did not happen, but the reason it did not happen is precisely because the community upped its game through milestones like Alien Vendetta and Scythe 2 in the early to mid 2000s (and even those wads can be fairly criticized). 

 

It's perfectly fine to have some sort of nostalgic attachment to a janky wad from 25 years ago because it's the first wad you ever played when you were 10 years old or whatever, but that doesn't automatically mean that they should get preferential treatment when it comes to evaluating them. It's fair to contextualize and historicize criticism, but it's also equally fair not to ignore the absolutely amazing progress made over the last quarter of a century.

that's really not what anyone is saying, though? hell, i even mentioned that i don't like requiem, personally. as i said, the way i view the megawad is that it's an undercooked mess that, while pretty good in its first half (minus iikka's maps, i've always thought those were kinda terrible gameplay-wise), falls off a cliff in the second. this is mostly coming down to judging something negatively when you're playing it in a way that's not intended as well as berating mappers.

[Dynamo]

28 minutes ago, DreadWanderer said:

that doesn't automatically mean that they should get preferential treatment when it comes to evaluating them.

At no point did anyone say this. And historical context matters for nearly every serious review or analysis, the reason why its presence is reduced in MtPain's videos is because it is an entertainment show first and a serious review show second, which is totally fine and acceptable, and not something I don't think anyone is suggesting should be changed either.

 

28 minutes ago, DreadWanderer said:

It's perfectly fine to have some sort of nostalgic attachment to a janky wad from 25 years ago because it's the first wad you ever played when you were 10 years old or whatever

You're assuming a lot about people's preferences :P personally I played requiem after I played scythe 2 and alien vendetta and I personally prefer it to both. It's not a matter of "nostalgic attachment", which ends up being a roundabout way of saying that nobody in their right mind could possibly like something as trash as this WAD if it weren't for nostalgia. People are indeed allowed to have their preferences, and disagreeing is part of the fun, after all.

[VaibhavRM]

It was after his Doom 64 review ("C+?" 😖😡🥺😔😌) that I became a bit more discerning over the adherence to rules in reviewing art which will always be subjective regardless of the viewer approaching it with a rules/standards.

 

The grades from my view mean the same whether Mtpain27 came to the conclusion from following a common set of rules or not.

 

Following rules while approaching wads does make for some interesting experience and may even let one see a work in a unique way but a part of me wishes Mtpain27 would just let his instincts decide how to approach a wad/level as we are creatures of time and space affected by all sorts of externalities outside of the work itself and (perhaps I would enjoyed that book/film/game more if I read/watched/played it at home/theatre/platform or at night instead of the afternoon or when I was in a better mood.)

In short, I am thinking too much as ranking things is fun 😏

Edited September 5, 2023 by VaibhavRM

[DreadWanderer]

6 minutes ago, Dynamo said:

At no point did anyone say this. And historical context matters for nearly every serious review or analysis, the reason why its presence is reduced in MtPain's videos is because it is an entertainment show first and a serious review show second, which is totally fine and acceptable, and not something I don't think anyone is suggesting should be changed either.

 

You're assuming a lot about people's preferences :P personally I played requiem after I played scythe 2 and alien vendetta and I personally prefer it to both. It's not a matter of "nostalgic attachment", which ends up being a roundabout way of saying that nobody in their right mind could possibly like something as trash as this WAD if it weren't for nostalgia. People are indeed allowed to have their preferences, and disagreeing is part of the fun, after all.

You are right, I was being presumptuous when I wrote that, though I didn't target anyone and wasn't insinuating that one would have to be crazy to like Requiem. Do I believe that nostalgia plays a big part in a more general, abstract way? Absolutely. I was going more in a direction of "a wad's historical importance doesn't necessarily translate into a fun experience in a modern context", which is a point that the Dean of Doom series made quite transparently. That was my bad for expressing it in an overly forceful way.

[Revved]

10 minutes ago, VaibhavRM said:

It was after his Doom 64 review ("D- ?" 😖😡🥺😔😌)

That was only his grade for difficulty, with a D- in that category meaning that he saw it as pretty easy to finish, but with the caveat that he was playing it on continuous play due to the nature of D64 encouraging such a playstyle, what with having to collect three demon artifacts across several levels to upgrade the unmaker and all. His actual grade for the game's QUALITY was a C+.