The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[VaibhavRM]

1 minute ago, Revved said:

That was only his grade for difficulty, with a D- in that category meaning that he saw it as pretty easy to finish, but with the caveat that he was playing it on continuous play due to the nature of D64 encouraging such a playstyle, what with having to collect three demon artifacts across several levels to upgrade the unmaker and all. His actual grade for the game's QUALITY was a C+.

oops I was making a five stages of grief joke and miswrote the grade 😔

[Zulk RS]

I generally really like Dean of Doom videos and this Requiem Episode is no different. However, the one weird thing was unlike the other episodes which I did enjoy but didn't really make me want to play the wad being reviewed, this one REALLY made me want to try Requiem. I've just downloaded it and am about to fire up Zandronum.

 

[Celestin]

I don't think I understand what this fuss is about. I played Requiem last year, UV with pistol-starts and saves. Yes, there were some maps that were tight on resources, I remember MAP03 specifically gave me trouble, but at no point I felt my experience would be better with more guns and ammo (unlike, say, The Rebirth, where not playing continuous was painful). That is, aside from MAP24, but I do think starting the map with no guns and ammo was the intended challenge.

[Kinetic]

Cool episode, I don't think the rules for the show really cause any issues and they're generally good rules. Don't get too much why there's huge fuss over the pistol start vs. continuous play thing, his rules involve pistol starting which most maps are made around in the overwhelming amount of cases, and Requiem has at least a decent amount of effort catered towards pistol starting from what it looks like, so why shouldn't he evaluate the maps from that lens when it was at least designed around a bit? I thought the more prominent issue he was having was just the general action of the maps, especially ikka's maps, lots of corridors and tight spaces with heavies that don't make for engaging combat for most people these days

[DreadWanderer]

25 minutes ago, Kinetic said:

Cool episode, I don't think the rules for the show really cause any issues and they're generally good rules. Don't get too much why there's huge fuss over the pistol start vs. continuous play thing, his rules involve pistol starting which most maps are made around in the overwhelming amount of cases, and Requiem has at least a decent amount of effort catered towards pistol starting from what it looks like, so why shouldn't he evaluate the maps from that lens when it was at least designed around a bit? I thought the more prominent issue he was having was just the general action of the maps, especially ikka's maps, lots of corridors and tight spaces with heavies that don't make for engaging combat for most people these days

Precisely one of my observations. Whether or not I have a BFG and 600 cells, fighting barons and mancubi in tight spaces can only be fun up to a certain point. I'm generalizing a lot of course but the essence of the point remains.

Respect for those who have no issue with that though, this is just my opinion. My love for Doom was cemented through modern wads like Back to Saturn X, so I'm aware of the biases and predispositions I have.

[Gibbitudinous]

Speaking of Doom 64, it's funny to think about how completing it the "intended" way with all the demon keys means rendering the final boss an utter fart in the wind compared to the gantlet you have to face if you never find the keys. I know id really struggled with the concept of boss fights after getting rid of Tom Hall*, but it's really funny to contrast that with something like a JRPG where the idea of the secret "true ending" path not having a way more difficult boss at the end would be unthinkable.

*Yes, the game was made by Midway San Diego, but they were clearly following up id's design philosophy as best they could so the weak interaction between bosses and extra content feels very much like an id thing regardless.

[DJVCardMaster]

I was really dissapointed replaying Requiem two years ago, because of how bland most maps ended up, I even had a DNF playthrough getting stuck in that awful MAP12. Requiem was probably the first PWAD I've played, and although I don't think I had finished it, I had very good memories of most of its maps.
If you have good memories of it, please don't replay it, because Requiem does not deserve a second playthrough, if you enjoyed it once, you won't enjoy it twice, if you did not enjoy it at first, that's all.

This is an old example of how not to manage a community mapset.

[LadyMistDragon]

12 hours ago, roadworx said:

 

 

not to mention straight up insulting mappers because you just can't see their qualities. thomas möller, for example, is one of my favorite mappers because of how his layouts so often intersect in ways you simply don't see in most maps as well as how nasty some of his combat can be. it's actually really unique (not to mention difficult as hell to do when creating a layout) and even today you often don't see it outside a few examples in solitary maps. if you don't like it regardless, then that's perfectly fine. say the map is shit in your eyes, explain why, and move on. don't insult the creator because you can't see past your own narrow view of how a doom map should be. i know it can be great for comedy n stuff, but...come on now. instead of just shitting on the guy, at least be creative or something.

 

No kidding. I think that his map in Requiem was an excellent send-off and even his maps in Memento Mori 1 specifically (perhaps less so in Memento Mori 2) were rather interesting. I can just imagine him considering returning to Doom and seeing Mt Pain's video and going 'you know, nevermind.' While I highly doubt that will actually happen, Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least. This could get into a larger conversation but I think a lot of that was already covered in the BTSX 2 episode and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to revisit it, namely that people's minds will never be changed.

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, DJVCardMaster said:

If you have good memories of it, please don't replay it, because Requiem does not deserve a second playthrough, if you enjoyed it once, you won't enjoy it twice, if you did not enjoy it at first, that's all.

Interestingly I have the opposite experience, I find it's a wad that has aged surpisingly gracefully considering its troubled development.

[DJVCardMaster]

1 minute ago, Andromeda said:

Interestingly I have the opposite experience, I find it's a wad that has aged surpisingly gracefully considering its troubled development.

In a technical standpoint, yes, many of the Vanilla tricks used in Requiem still stand the test of time, mostly talking about Ikka's shenanigans like the double 3d-bridges, texturing and detailing, and other stuff. Gameplay-wise, not so much.

[Dynamo]

52 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least.

This was indeed my main complaint at the end of the day, and I find it interesting that some people on this thread chose to instead focus on the technicalities of "pistol start vs non-pistol start" when that was a secondary aspect to this. Like you said though, it is what it is, and I enjoyed this episode as well as the BTSX E2 one, I felt like both had some good insight into the maps. Not the MM1 episode though, unfortunately.

[Kwisior]

1 hour ago, LadyMistDragon said:

This could get into a larger conversation but I think a lot of that was already covered in the BTSX 2 episode and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to revisit it, namely that people's minds will never be changed.

He attacked the BTSX team? Those maps are amazing!

[DreadWanderer]

33 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

No kidding. I think that his map in Requiem was an excellent send-off and even his maps in Memento Mori 1 specifically (perhaps less so in Memento Mori 2) were rather interesting. I can just imagine him considering returning to Doom and seeing Mt Pain's video and going 'you know, nevermind.' While I highly doubt that will actually happen, Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least. This could get into a larger conversation but I think a lot of that was already covered in the BTSX 2 episode and there doesn't seem to be a good reason to revisit it, namely that people's minds will never be changed.

Something I thought about is a fundamental asymmetry in review reactions, in the sense that you're more likely to see hot debates about bad scores than you would in reviews with good scores. This phenomenon isn't even limited to gaming, but can be found in almost any form of media. People feel queasy when it comes to voicing an opinion that slays a "sacred cow" for fear of nasty reactions, but the stakes are much, much lower if they praise a cultural artefact which a community considers to be unimportant and/or bad. This has nothing to do with Requiem specifically by the way, I'm talking generally. Call me crazy, but for example I found the last stretch of Scythe 2 to be positively infuriating, with Alm cranking up the difficulty in really unimaginative and artificial ways.

I agree that the Requiem episode contained direct and vigorous language, but I'm not exactly sure how this constitutes a personal attack on mappers. It's possible I missed something, but I didn't see it. If MtPain27 found patterns he doesn't like in the work of a mapper, then that negative impression will carry over. It's not ideal but that's what's happening, we're only human. Could the language have been more diplomatic? Sure, we're probably on the same page here. The questions around whether or not we can find objective standards or sets of criteria meant to please everyone (if those are the goals) remain complicated and maybe even impossible to answer.

[TakenStew22]

Yes! I've been waiting for this one!

[DrRock]

Looking at the video review, I'm a bit surprised how very few of these maps I remember from view. And my playthrough of his megawad wasn't that long ago, either. The ridiculous amount of very narrow corridors stuck in my mind, though. Finding out about the context behind this project through this video does explain the relative lack of bells and whistles on display for most of Reqiuem. Still not a bad playthrough when done continuously(that's how I play pretty much all mapsets anyway). Sometimes all one needs is to stomp something rather easy like this inbetween the more difficult modern works.

[Gibbitudinous]

I don't recall any personal attacks offhand, but I honestly agree with the assessment that the BTSX series is an example of map design that goes a bit too hard on the "look at what we can do with vanilla Doom" angle and winds up becoming easy to tire of despite (or one might even say because of) how high-quality and high-effort everything about it is. I feel similarly about wads like Ancient Aliens and Eviternity: absolutely gorgeous to behold but tiresome to play thru due the maps' sheer grandiosity.

[Firedust]

1 hour ago, Kwisior said:

He attacked the BTSX team?

He didn't attack anyone imo. Some people took it too personally. I found his criticisms fair even though I did enjoy the mapset a bit more than he did. It just made me look forward to his review of TPH (if he ever considers reviewing it, that is) even more, but might be a while until we get there, with all the classics he's yet to cover.

[cannonball]

It is probably far easier and less controversial to dunk on something like Memento Mori, a wad that is quite bluntly very rough around the edges. Requiem has a lot more flair, more tricks and creativity, but the wad falls flat in many aspects regarding the gameplay and it isn't something you can't just ignore because for example the author is probably one of the best at constructing near 3d environments withing the doom engine, shotgunning mid tiers in corridors with little room to maneuver isn't fun, end of. In the end I am a little surprised at the controversy given that the gameplay is probably more scrutinised now than it was back in 1997. 

[roadworx]

1 minute ago, cannonball said:

In the end I am a little surprised at the controversy given that the gameplay is probably more scrutinised now than it was back in 1997. 

what i'm surprised at is that people still think that there's controversy about the rating of requiem

[jazzmaster9]

3 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Mt Pain's personal attacks on practically anyone who makes maps he finds personally irksome are getting really tiresome, to say the least. 

Ive noticed this greatly since his BTSX E2 review, and his constant pcorf jokes in another video.

 

He claims that mapping is this "conversation between player and mapper" but ends up him putting words into a mapper's mouth, when he doesnt like the level, then feel insulted.

[Devalaous]

The only time ive seen his criticisms of a map authour's tendencies be a bit too harsh was with CC2. Some maps really frustrate him and he makes that known, never once seen him actually belittle the person itself. Just feels like over-reacting to me, given society these days is often forced positivity above all else.

[Dynamo]

19 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

given society these days is often forced positivity above all else. 

... I beg your pardon?

[BiZ]

2 hours ago, Dynamo said:

This was indeed my main complaint at the end of the day, and I find it interesting that some people on this thread chose to instead focus on the technicalities of "pistol start vs non-pistol start" when that was a secondary aspect to this. Like you said though, it is what it is, and I enjoyed this episode as well as the BTSX E2 one, I felt like both had some good insight into the maps. Not the MM1 episode though, unfortunately.

 

it was absolutely not the secondary aspect. The post that started this was about the reviewer "doing it wrong" by pistol-starting instead of playing this wad continuous...at least on its face. Now after some sussing out it seems like the real issue was that "the reviewer criticized the creator that i hold on a pedestal."

 

As for the alleged personal attacks, its a futile endeavor to argue about imo. Just scroll back a dozen pages to the controversy surrounding the btsx e2 episode. This reminds me so much of that. If you want to have an actual dialogue about it regarding this episode, i went back and watched the video again but I'm really struggling to figure out where the personal attacks are, so a timestamp or quote would definitely provide some concrete footing to facilitate the conversation you want. (I'm not saying you are wrong, just that we are all going to have different perspectives, interpretations, levels of sensitivities, etc.)

 

In general though, i just disagree with this notion that players are only allowed to have or express opinions on the work and not the author as if the two things exist in a vacuum. That seems like pure fantasy to me. I'm struggling to think of any critic that doesn't sometimes reference the author in regards to to their work, that doesn't try to divine their intent or motivation behind the work, that doesn't notice or reference trends or quirks across the creators body of work.

 

 

[Tristan]

Pretty funny to see people in this thread talking about "personal attacks" in the videos when I've seen them do the exact same sort of thing repeatedly...

[Downcologo one]

On 10/31/2020 at 7:17 PM, Sunnyfruit said:

So this is a Youtube show from a "nerd with too much time on its hands", initially recommended by decino and that I enjoy quite a lot. Basically, it's a wad review map by map with pistol start on ZDoom, with one note for quality and one note for difficulty. It's still a pretty obscure channel so I wanted to make some publicity for it and ask for a general opinion about the show itself.

(no I'm not the guy, I can't even play anything but GZDoom for more than 5 minutes before emptying my meal on the floor)

 

The lastest video, Halloween-related:

 

The classic iwads reviews:

 

DOOM 93

 

THY FLESH CONSUMED:

 

 

DOOM 2:

 

 

I really like they videos

[OceanMadman]

3 minutes ago, Downcologo one said:

I really like they videos

Ye he's good

[TakenStew22]

Ignoring the argument going on about pistol starts, I actually do remember liking Requiem and the Momento Mori's. I guess 90's jankiness didn't bother me that much, classic maps just had that charm for me. In fact, I kinda miss the simpleness of them and wish more modern maps did more classic map playstyle instead of being gimmicky or slaughtery which seems to be the norm nowadays.

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, BiZ said:

 

it was absolutely not the secondary aspect. The post that started this was about the reviewer "doing it wrong" by pistol-starting instead of playing this wad continuous...at least on its face. Now after some sussing out it seems like the real issue was that "the reviewer criticized the creator that i hold on a pedestal."

 

As for the alleged personal attacks, its a futile endeavor to argue about imo. Just scroll back a dozen pages to the controversy surrounding the btsx e2 episode. This reminds me so much of that. If you want to have an actual dialogue about it regarding this episode, i went back and watched the video again but I'm really struggling to figure out where the personal attacks are, so a timestamp or quote would definitely provide some concrete footing to facilitate the conversation you want. (I'm not saying you are wrong, just that we are all going to have different perspectives, interpretations, levels of sensitivities, etc.)

 

In general though, i just disagree with this notion that players are only allowed to have or express opinions on the work and not the author as if the two things exist in a vacuum. That seems like pure fantasy to me. I'm struggling to think of any critic that doesn't sometimes reference the author in regards to to their work, that doesn't try to divine their intent or motivation behind the work, that doesn't notice or reference trends or quirks across the creators body of work.

 

 

you do realize that dynamo and i are two separate people, right? i'm the one talking mostly about how the wad is played, while dynamo mostly takes issue with insulting creators. i will admit that him shitting on thomas does tick me off a bit because i honestly do hold him on a bit of a pedestal, but i brought that up more because dynamo takes issue with it and i was trying to contribute. i probably did overreact a bit tho

 

tbh, my primary issue isn't really that he shits on creators. yeah, it's not great to do, but...it happens. people say stuff. the issue i have with this, however, extends beyond requiem (because, as i've said, i dont really like it that much). it's much more to do with playing everything uv-max pistol start only when that can really make you blow off some truly great wads.

 

as i stated earlier, that era was a time where most people played continuous, and most wads were primarily catered towards that experience as the authors expected people to play that way. yes, they allowed pistol start, but that wasn't the main focus. as such, it's harder to appreciate stuff that was made in that era when you play it in a modern uv-max pistol start playstyle, and it kinda sucks to see someone stubbornly adhere to modern principles when playing older wads, y'know? 

 

while i don't care for requiem, i'm really passionate about 90s and early-mid 2000s doom wads. what worries me - and this isn't just about mtpain, this goes for everyone - is that this trend of only uv-max pistol starting is gonna shift the general opinion on really great wads, which doesn't include requiem, simply because people refuse to be more open to other modes of play. whether or not the map uses outdated level design has nothing to do with it, because that deserves criticism; i'm specifically talking about not wanting to step outside your comfort zone and maybe look at things from a different angle. if you don't like it regardless, then that's fine, more power to you. at the very least, however, give it a fair chance instead of stacking the odds against it, because who knows, you may find it more enjoyable (or not) that way.

 

that's my main issue. now quit trying to make it out as though i'm only upset that he shat on mappers i like, because honestly, that's the least of my concern. i'm more worried about if he ever reviews mm2, because that's absolutely meant for continuous. it doesn't play well with pistol start, and if he does that, he'll end up hating it, and then a bunch of people who've never even played it will take his opinion of it being a slog with way too much ammo starvation and roll with it as though it's objective truth.

Edited September 6, 2023 by roadworx

[Benjogami]

The rules for how the maps are played need to be rigid for the grades to make sense. It's the only way to compare apples to apples. That's just the format of the show, and it wouldn't make sense to change it just because some wads don't shine their best within the rules.

 

I think this "trend" of pistol starting and UV-Maxing that you're seeing is mostly happening among content creators because people see the content working for some people and want to use the same format. It's also so you can compare apples to apples, even if you aren't grading things. You still want to see it all and showcase it all. Pistol starting and 100%ing is a simple way that everyone understands to demonstrate that you saw it all, even if it doesn't work equally well for all maps. And yeah maybe content creators will get more people pistol starting and trying to 100% stuff, but there will always be people playing continuously, using mods, jumping when they shouldn't be, doing everything wrong, etc etc. It's fine, it's gonna be okay. People will still like 90s wads. I like 90s wads.

 

RE: The Dean of Mean, I could write a whole essay about it, but meh. I'll just say that people shat all over joe-ilya's maps for years when he was a literal child just being passionate and trying to learn and create stuff. Yeah sure maybe he was (and is) annoying, but the way he was the constant butt of the joke always bothered me. I think these literal gen Xers that are legends of the community can handle hearing that a part of their 90s map was "idiotic."

[Blast_Brothers]

If Mt.Pain harps on about how tough the map is to pistol start, and gives it a C, I think the proper reaction is not to say, "MtPain shouldn't be playing the WAD that way, it's supposed to be played continuous", it's "He gave it a C for the rough pistol start, so I'd probably enjoy it at a B or B- level if I ever play through this set continuously." Besides, if you're just watching the review and haven't played the mapset, him complaining about the rough pistol start is the only way you'll know that the map has a rough pistol start, which may affect how you decide to play the mapset for yourself.

 

If he complains about a WAD being really grindy on UV, the audience takeaway should be either "I'm better at Doom than him, so I'd probably enjoy this WAD more on UV than his grade suggests" or "I'm about the same level of player (or lower) as him, so I'll play on a lower skill level to have more fun."

 

Copy and paste this same argument for "monster window dressing".

 

I never saw MtPain's grades as something you're just supposed to accept at face value - but they provide a useful baseline for calibrating your own, hypothetical grade for the WAD, based on how his preferences differ from yours. And I think he goes out of his way to cultivate that "baseline" quality by playing every WAD the same way, even if that means a mapset gets "unfairly" dinged for one reason or another. Maybe some people do take his grades at face value, but that's their fault.