The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Faceman2000]

4 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

his constant pcorf jokes in another video

His pcorf comments have made me uncomfortable in at least two videos that I can recall. His maps aren’t your style, I get it, but no need to get personal - especially about someone still active in the community.

[LoatharMDPhD]

20 hours ago, Roofi said:

From my experience, I played hundred wads made before 2000 and few of them were very hostile to pistol-start. I played Requiem on pistol start years ago and it was fine most of the time. 

 

And as modern mappers, mapmakers from the 90' had to individually test their map.

 

 

// as an idiot savant linux slade user, i save every 10-15 min or so, as a separate iteration, and file name, then every +3 iterations i manual load the wad into the terminal and test the thing... not just the latest changes, but i also try and break the map, and similar to cooking, you have to keep tasting and adjust the seasoning...

[Capellan]

I briefly watched his Rats in the Walls, "Chaos Zone" and Bitter Herb reviews.  They're all reasonable enough.

 

I also happened to catch the end of his Black Gate and Doorway to Quake reviews as a result, which were an amusing juxtaposition in that the map he bagged on for being too much of an iD rip-off was not the literal re-creation of an iD map.  I get why, but it's still amusing.

 

If he dissed The Canyon or nataS ot etubirT, though, we shall have to disagree.  I like those maps a lot.

[baja blast rd.]

8 hours ago, DreadWanderer said:

Something I thought about is a fundamental asymmetry in review reactions, in the sense that you're more likely to see hot debates about bad scores than you would in reviews with good scores.

 

Yeah I would love to notice one day that this thread got 3-4 pages of responses to one video and then find out that 90% of that is not related to "controversy" in any way, but I doubt that can happen...

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

His pcorf comments have made me uncomfortable in at least two videos that I can recall. His maps aren’t your style, I get it, but no need to get personal - especially about someone still active in the community.

It kinda made me stop watching for a bit and had to come back to it later.

Have to remember which episode that was in particular 

[xScavengerWolfx]

Oh boy, i see a lot of people getting pissy about what Mt. Pain said in this one.

 

I wounder how long it's going to be before the thread needs to cool down again?

 

For the people getting a bit let's say "a bit on the pissy side of thing" I look at his videos as entertainment not a insult or disrespecting mappers. He's being honest about what he dose and dose not like about a map and what is wrong with it, he has said "After all, disagreeing is apart of the fun. At the end of the day this is about spreading the joy of doom...so let's do so".

 

I mean be in his shoes for a moment: Would you like it if you spend months reviewing the same mega wad over and over and over, writing down your thoughts on how you like and dislike the map (not the mapper, the map itself), uploaded it to Youtube and come here and have to read all the people either giving there options on how they like it but it could've been better or the little group of mappers that get offended by commentary. Now i can hear the key boards being slammed down and calling me out for saying what i am saying but here's my defense on this, If i had mt. pain 27 review my mega wad for doom 1 and he started saying how bad it was and give it a D or an E for difficulty and a D or a F for quality: Am i going to run here and start up an uproar over it? No. I would thank him for playing it and take the feedback and rework some the kinks out to make it better in the end.

 

Now is this comment going to get a lot of people pissed at me because i don't "understand"? Maybe, maybe not. That is all up to you to decided.  

[BiZ]

1 hour ago, roadworx said:

you do realize that dynamo and i are two separate people, right? i'm the one talking mostly about how the wad is played, while dynamo mostly takes issue with insulting creators. i will admit that him shitting on thomas does tick me off a bit because i honestly do hold him on a bit of a pedestal, but i brought that up more because dynamo takes issue with it and i was trying to contribute. i probably did overreact a bit tho

 

tbh, my primary issue isn't really that he shits on creators. yeah, it's not great to do, but...it happens. people say stuff. the issue i have with this, however, extends beyond requiem (because, as i've said, i dont really like it that much). it's much more to do with playing everything uv-max pistol start only when that can really make you blow off some truly great wads.

 

as i stated earlier, that era was a time where most people played continuous, and most wads were primarily catered towards that experience as the authors expected people to play that way. yes, they allowed pistol start, but that wasn't the main focus. as such, it's harder to appreciate stuff that was made in that era when you play it in a modern uv-max pistol start playstyle, and it kinda sucks to see someone stubbornly adhere to modern principles when playing older wads, y'know? 

 

while i don't care for requiem, i'm really passionate about 90s and early-mid 2000s doom wads. what worries me - and this isn't just about mtpain, this goes for everyone - is that this trend of only uv-max pistol starting is gonna shift the general opinion on really great wads, which doesn't include requiem, simply because people refuse to be more open to other modes of play. whether or not the map uses outdated level design has nothing to do with it, because that deserves criticism; i'm specifically talking about not wanting to step outside your comfort zone and maybe look at things from a different angle. if you don't like it regardless, then that's fine, more power to you. at the very least, however, give it a fair chance instead of stacking the odds against it, because who knows, you may find it more enjoyable (or not) that way.

 

that's my main issue. now quit trying to make it out as though i'm only upset that he shat on mappers i like, because honestly, that's the least of my concern. i'm more worried about if he ever reviews mm2, because that's absolutely meant for continuous. it doesn't play well with pistol start, and if he does that, he'll end up hating it, and then a bunch of people who've never even played it will take his opinion of it being a slog with way too much ammo starvation and roll with it as though it's objective truth.

 

Buddy, you keep asking me if I realize this, or realize that like I'm some oblivious child...So let me ask you, with all due respect, do you realize that when I quote you I'm talking to you and when I quote somebody else I'm talking to them?

 

Look I understand your position, we've peeled that onion. You like a thing. Somebody else doesn't. You think that if they would have just done the thing this other, more correct way (according to you), then they would change their mind and also like the thing you like (or appreciate it more or whatever). I get it, youre passionate about a thing, thats cool.

 

What are we supposed now go back and forth about some hypothetical review that you think could maybe, possibly, happen at some point in the future? Where some wad you enjoy doesn't get the score you were hoping for, and that some how leads to a cascading domino effect where people no longer appreciate said wad as much as you think they should appreciate it? I have no interest in that.

[xScavengerWolfx]

Hey Baja quick question for ya.

 

How long dose it take for this thread to be locked under a cool down timer? Just curious 

[T-Rex]

So, I had a watch at Dean of Doom's review of Requiem, and here's my two cents on it.

 

Requiem is by no means a perfect wad as it had some hiccups, like the fact that trying to achieve 100% on Den of the Skull is impossible, or that most of the maps are linear, but nevertheless, a great chunk of them are high-quality made by some of the most talented mappers of the 90s, like Thomas Moller has always been one of the best, no matter what MtPain27 says, Adelusion and Iikka Keranen are also very good, and I like Cappelan's offerings as many of his maps are nice little breathers, especially after going through maps like Skinny Puppy, Procrustes Chambers and Downer. All in all, Requiem is very much the Alien Vendetta of its time, only not as difficult, and it would have been a bona fide legend if there was someone keeping the team together and thoroughly playtesting the maps to ensure that any bugs were ironed out. It still remains one of my favourite megawads to play through as every map feels like a pilgrimage, even some of the bad ones. Den of the Skull, for example, has an interesting concept, but it did feel like it was in its beta stage as there were clearly issues with it that were never fixed up, and if it wasn't for Den of the Skull, I wouldn't have tried out crush.wad, also by Anthony Galica, and a nicely well done and fun map. And speaking of Memento Mori 1 and 2, I like Memento Mori and find it to be about the same quality and difficulty as TNT: Evilution.

 

While I know that MtPain27's shtick is reviewing wads through a modern lens, I think it does result in him judging a good chunk of the 90s wads and megawads very harshly and giving them grades, whether it be for quality or difficulty, that aren't really accurate. Case in point, Hell Revealed, not a bad review, but he makes it sound much harder and bad than it really is. Yes, taking out groups of barons with a weak weapon like a shotgun, can be annoying and tedious, but that doesn't make it horribly difficult than it is artificial lengthening, plus they do come in useful at times, like in The Black Towers, they are ideal for dealing with the revenants in the outdoor blood fountain and the cyberdemons that are released from their marble boxes, and in Judgement Day, those teleporting barons are to be lured into infighting the sleeping cyberdemon, and speaking of Judgement Day, I like its architecture and theme as it reminds me of Ultimate Doom Thy Flesh Consumed. Personally, I don't believe that just because a wad is hard that makes it a classic, but MtPain27 royally exaggerated the difficulty of Hell Revealed and inadvertently made many players hate on it too much. Meanwhile, he overpraises and undervalues Plutonia's reputation as the hardest of the official wads released by id Software, like seriously, B- Lightly Broiled? I find that to be very misleading and not understanding the Casali Brothers' intentions to make a wad that caters to the veterans coming out of playing Doom 2 and looking for a challenge, and honestly, the incline between Doom 2 and Plutonia, even from TNT: Evilution, is very steep. A good chunk of the wads have traps that are pretty kaizoesque and the maps demand using the exact strategy to take out the opposition as the map layout also works against you, so the Casalis really punish you for going one direction and the other and not the golden mean that you have to find. Sure, it's not like Sunder, but still, I even find Go 2 It to be much harder and sadistic than Resistance is Futile, though barely outdone by Post Mortem. Monster body counts don't necessarily make a level difficult, it's also the types used, and weapons you're given to take them out, and how the level design and terrain gives them an advantage over you.

 

My gripes is that many think MtPain27 is like an authority on Doom wads and treat his word like the gospel. It does result in just missing out wads that are actually good, and for their time, were competently made, especially when you compare them to the average 1994 wad, and will just quickly say that because it's "not pistol start friendly on UV, it automatically sucks," which is a very narrow-minded way of seeing wads, especially those made back in the 90s were pistol-starting each map was never the intended way of playing Doom and having to pistol-start a later map is more of a penalty for failing to go through it. Wads made back in the 90s were basically sink-or-swim type of wads, and you always have the option to play at a lower difficulty before attempting Ultra-Violence. Yes, there is a balance between genuine difficulty and fake difficulty, and yes, wads today were made to be more accessible for casual players, but to compare a wad made back in the 90s to one made in the 2010s is unfair, taking into account how level editors made back then were not the same as something like Doom Builder.

 

At the end of it all, it really all comes down to taste and what's your preference when playing Doom maps.

[roadworx]

1 hour ago, BiZ said:

 

Buddy, you keep asking me if I realize this, or realize that like I'm some oblivious child...So let me ask you, with all due respect, do you realize that when I quote you I'm talking to you and when I quote somebody else I'm talking to them?

 

Look I understand your position, we've peeled that onion. You like a thing. Somebody else doesn't. You think that if they would have just done the thing this other, more correct way (according to you), then they would change their mind and also like the thing you like (or appreciate it more or whatever). I get it, youre passionate about a thing, thats cool.

 

What are we supposed now go back and forth about some hypothetical review that you think could maybe, possibly, happen at some point in the future? Where some wad you enjoy doesn't get the score you were hoping for, and that some how leads to a cascading domino effect where people no longer appreciate said wad as much as you think they should appreciate it? I have no interest in that.

you saying that made me realize how stupid this whole thing is. thanks, and sorry for making myself look like an idiot

[jmac]

I disagree with quite a bit of what the dean of doom said in this video, but the "personal attacks" felt pretty mild to me. Any good mapper puts a lot of themselves into the maps they make, so it isn't unreasonable to make interpretations on the mapper's intentions while playing their work. I don't believe critics of any medium should have to walk on eggshells in their reviews.

[Firedust]

2 hours ago, T-Rex said:

My gripes is that many think MtPain27 is like an authority on Doom wads and treat his word like the gospel. It does result in just missing out wads that are actually good, and for their time, were competently made, especially when you compare them to the average 1994 wad, and will just quickly say that because it's "not pistol start friendly on UV, it automatically sucks," which is a very narrow-minded way of seeing wads, especially those made back in the 90s were pistol-starting each map was never the intended way of playing Doom and having to pistol-start a later map is more of a penalty for failing to go through it.

You're 100% on point here. Unfortunately, this will always be something unavoidable when it comes to pretty much all critics, be it music, books, movies, game mods, etc. Herd mentality has been a thing for a good while now and far from every member of the audience is mature enough to reserve their judgement until experiencing a work of art themselves - and that's fine.

The important thing to keep in mind is that someone's criticism (even if they supposedly have 'authority' on the subject) should never lessen or devalue your personal enjoyment of anything, no matter how hard it gets lambasted, because there's no such thing as an 'objective' review or grade. It's all opinions anyway and as long as everyone's civil in their disagreement, a little bit of discourse may actually generate some really fruitful discussion imho.

[Akagi666]

It's weird seeing how upset people get about these reviews. It's just some guy on YouTube, who cares if he doesn't like something you like? Also, I'm not some kind of Mt. Pain dickrider, I watch him occasionally, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. The reactions people have to his negative reviews are ridiculous though.

[VoanHead]

1 hour ago, Akagi666 said:

It's weird seeing how upset people get about these reviews. It's just some guy on YouTube, who cares if he doesn't like something you like? Also, I'm not some kind of Mt. Pain dickrider, I watch him occasionally, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. The reactions people have to his negative reviews are ridiculous though.

My two cents: MtPain has given a scalding review towards Doom 64, an entry of the series that I like, and while yeah I’m a bit sad he didn’t enjoy it as much as I did, I can come to terms and respect his opinion. I tend to look at his reviews of older wads as a second opinion and as a test of time to see if the wads hold up to this very day. Sure, the tools used back then to make maps were primitive compared to today’s, but I don’t really see that as a proper excuse to the quality of the maps. If a map is good regardless if the tools were pretty limited, then it’s a good map nonetheless imo.
 

At the end of the day, there really is no need to get upset over his videos, much less on a video about an old unorthodox pwad.

Edited September 6, 2023 by VoanHead

[Helm]

The Dean of Doom show over many episodes increasingly feels like an exercise by the (very talented) writer/presenter in coming up with interesting turns of phrase to say much the same range of things, over and over. The overfamiliarity with mappers both current and of a different time comes with the general overfamiliarity with its own package and format, as the show has become ingrained in the subculture. This is a very difficult thing to avoid if you make some sort of serialized content for the internet, and especially if you are successful! The initial creativity that is self-fuelling, the novelty of doing something of depth about something as seemingly simple as Doom maps, and the spontaneity of the initial problem solving wane as the obligations of the format itself become heavier and heavier. "Content" is a self-regurgitating machine. Perhaps a long running (in essence) tv show about megawads ranked against each other has a small hybris at its own core. Art was never meant to be ranked, ranking things actually isn't fun, or at least it isn't as fun as it initially seemed. Getting an outsider's view and ranking about something you made can be an insightful fire-starting thing, a very punk rock thing, a 'fuck you if you don't like it, that's how I felt!' kind of thing. But what if the one ranking you and your creativity is now enmeshed in the community and widely respected? Should the tone change? With more power comes greater responsibility. In essence though, perhaps we get ranked enough - or too much - in our daily lives as it is so there is a hard time limit to such projects no matter how charitable one feels about them.  

If you've ever written coppy for anything that's supposed to be packaged entertainment for an audience you know personally the anxiety of having to come up with interesting language and delivery every single time to basically say the same thing over and over. One can feel like a telemarketer that has to write a whole new fable for every new telemarketing item that comes up on the screen, lest they be exposed, in some strange way as someone engaged in something more cynical than the self-propelled joy of a cultural appreciator sharing observations about a loved thing.

I maintain that Doom maps - though entertaining - are art, especially in the sense that custom wads are made and distributed for free, by amateurs. They should not be held to the rules of the marketplace (or we should protect them in any case from as much of this mentality as possible) and ranking them against each other is a consumer tendency that has been beaten into us by the hierarchical systems that oppress us. Then, additional tensions arise, when any one successful and eloquent authority figure has funny quips for us when he hates a map and in order to get their content across with impact, they get familiar with what is essentially very mysterious people: Not superstar game developers, not John Romero, not paid professionals that sold us a product, but amateurs, teenage mappers, lonely friends from 10, 20, 30 years ago, all with their private stories which we may never really know, who shared their creativity with us for free. And now we have for them a funny turn of phrase and a letter grade for their work, thanks a lot, the past! This is how we repackage ourselves. A deeper humility towards actual human beings that spent parts of their finite lives to make 3d mazes for a myriad of different reasons gets washed away inexorably by the demanding strictures of the format. 

Think of your own self and how many youtube channels you have enthusiastically subscribed to and then for strange reasons, down the line you unsubscribe to even though the content itself has not changed in quality - there's just more and more of it - slowly subsuming its own purpose by its own success. I remember when there was nearly nothing Doom related on youtube and what a rush of Recognition (in the Hegelian sense) it was to start seeing interesting voices pop up and establish themselves but there is a rise and a fall to such things, governed by market strictures and the rules of media content creation that I am describing above. 

 

[xScavengerWolfx]

3 hours ago, VoanHead said:

My two cents: MtPain has given a scalding review towards Doom 64, an entry of the series that I like, and while yeah I’m a bit sad he didn’t enjoy it as much as I did, I can come to terms and respect his opinion. I tend to look at his reviews of older wads as a second opinion and as a test of time to see if the wads hold up to this very day. Sure, the tools used back then to make maps were primitive compared to today’s, but I don’t really see that as a proper excuse to the quality of the maps. If a map is good regardless if the tools were pretty limited, then it’s a good map nonetheless imo.
 

At the end of the day, there really is no need to get upset over his videos, much less on a video about an old unorthodox pwad.

I will agree with you on one thing: I think people should stop throwing up torches and pitchforks over stupid shit like that, i mean for god sakes it's entertainment people, i will never understand why people get offended when mt pain give legit criticism on how good or bad the maps are even if they we're made in the mid to late 90's.

 

I know i know i get it, the map editors we're pretty bad back in those days for mapping but like you said at the end of the day. What's the point of getting pissed off over something that went through so much hell and trouble to get off the ground, i think in my own option that something like this mega wad is a icon of a bye gone era where Quake 1 was ruling the nest and people thought the doom modding community was going to die off because of quake....Well here we are 30 years later and doom modding is still thriving.

 

What my point is yes i agree with you on the fact of people need to stop crying like whinnies piss babies and just get over it. Also I do too

enjoyed mt. pain's  Doom 64 video and i like Doom 64. 

[ReaperAA]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:46 AM, T-Rex said:

While I know that MtPain27's shtick is reviewing wads through a modern lens, I think it does result in him judging a good chunk of the 90s wads and megawads very harshly and giving them grades, whether it be for quality or difficulty, that aren't really accurate. Case in point, Hell Revealed, not a bad review, but he makes it sound much harder and bad than it really is. Yes, taking out groups of barons with a weak weapon like a shotgun, can be annoying and tedious, but that doesn't make it horribly difficult than it is artificial lengthening, plus they do come in useful at times, like in The Black Towers, they are ideal for dealing with the revenants in the outdoor blood fountain and the cyberdemons that are released from their marble boxes, and in Judgement Day, those teleporting barons are to be lured into infighting the sleeping cyberdemon, and speaking of Judgement Day, I like its architecture and theme as it reminds me of Ultimate Doom Thy Flesh Consumed. Personally, I don't believe that just because a wad is hard that makes it a classic, but MtPain27 royally exaggerated the difficulty of Hell Revealed and inadvertently made many players hate on it too much. Meanwhile, he overpraises and undervalues Plutonia's reputation as the hardest of the official wads released by id Software, like seriously, B- Lightly Broiled? I find that to be very misleading and not understanding the Casali Brothers' intentions to make a wad that caters to the veterans coming out of playing Doom 2 and looking for a challenge, and honestly, the incline between Doom 2 and Plutonia, even from TNT: Evilution, is very steep. A good chunk of the wads have traps that are pretty kaizoesque and the maps demand using the exact strategy to take out the opposition as the map layout also works against you, so the Casalis really punish you for going one direction and the other and not the golden mean that you have to find. Sure, it's not like Sunder, but still, I even find Go 2 It to be much harder and sadistic than Resistance is Futile, though barely outdone by Post Mortem. Monster body counts don't necessarily make a level difficult, it's also the types used, and weapons you're given to take them out, and how the level design and terrain gives them an advantage over you.

 

TBF, I don't I think its entirely wrong to review wads through a modern lens. It's a way to see which wad has stood the test of time better than it's contemporaries. Alien Vendetta is from similar era (only 4 years newer than Requiem) and Dean gave it a high score which means in his opinion, AV stood the test of time much better.

 

Also speaking about Plutonia and Hell Revealed, I have different opinion. While the average map in HR isn't super hard or anything, the hardest maps are vastly harder than anything Plutonia throws. Post Mortem isn't just barely harder than Go 2 It. It's magnitudes harder. Resistance is Futile I find to be around the same level of difficulty as Go 2 It (it's shorter and lighter than Go 2 It, but has more nastier Cyberdemon placement), but there are atleast 8-10 maps in HR that I find harder than Resistance is Futile.

[T-Rex]

2 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

TBF, I don't I think its entirely wrong to review wads through a modern lens. It's a way to see which wad has stood the test of time better than it's contemporaries. Alien Vendetta is from similar era (only 4 years newer than Requiem) and Dean gave it a high score which means in his opinion, AV stood the test of time much better.

 

Also speaking about Plutonia and Hell Revealed, I have different opinion. While the average map in HR isn't super hard or anything, the hardest maps are vastly harder than anything Plutonia throws. Post Mortem isn't just barely harder than Go 2 It. It's magnitudes harder. Resistance is Futile I find to be around the same level of difficulty as Go 2 It (it's shorter and lighter than Go 2 It, but has more nastier Cyberdemon placement), but there are atleast 8-10 maps in HR that I find harder than Resistance is Futile.

Yeah, but I really feel that MtPain27 has dunked on wads that are underappreciated nowadays, citing them as not worth playing any more, such as Memento Mori. Granted, it's rough around the edges in a bunch of the maps, but so is TNT Evilution, which he sort of gave a glowing review. I know he has a personal bias, I mean, Mount Pain, a level I dislike greatly as it is a textbook example of fake difficulty, is his favourite. I won't say he's wrong to find something he likes about that map. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Post Mortem is undoubtedly brutal, moreso if you're playing on vanilla and in UV since saving your game is impossible as it triggers the savegame buffer overflow, but in Go 2 It, enemies can easily block your escape routes, and if that happens, you're screwed. The parts I died the most are the arachnotron/spider mastermind barricade where the yellow key pillar lays, the arch-vile nest that gets unleashed after grabbing the red key, and speaking of which, three of the 13 cyberdemons (all appear in all difficulty levels, mind you, compare that to HR where the highest number of cybies below UV are 8 in HMP and 3 on ITYTD/HNTR), are placed in cramped rooms and trying to BFG them without an invulnerability is suicidal. So yeah, I find Go 2 It to be extremely chaotic than Resistance is Futile, so many things can go awry if the RNG doesn't play in your favour, and I find the cyberdemon placement to just be cruel to the utmost degree (though in HR's Resistance is Futile there's that cyberdemon guarding one switch in a cramped room). 8 - 10 maps, I think that's too much as there are only a handful of maps that really lay the hurt on me than Plutonia could, least in my opinion.

Edited September 7, 2023 by T-Rex

[Gez]

Wow that was a lot of words.

 

 

On the pistol start vs. continuous debate, I think there is one thing to consider: there's actually two different kinds of pistol starts. Scenario 1: you're working on a megawad with other people. You received a map for playtesting. You pistol-start it, take some notes, write some feedback, and then go back to doing other things. Scenario 2: you're pistol-starting every single map in a megawad, one after the other, in one long session, and you even do it twice.

 

Is it any wonder that some repetitive grinding situations, like for example shotgunning barons in tight corridors, would be a lot more aggravating in scenario 2 than in scenario 1?

[Akagi666]

I strongly believe that good art doesn't require its audience to make excuses for it. You don't listen to the Beatles and start making excuses about how recording techniques weren't as advanced in the 60s, you just listen to the music. You don't look at a Picasso painting and start making excuses about the kinds of paintbrushes they had back then. As soon as you have to start making excuses about historical context, tools at the time etc. it should be a red flag that the subject isn't actually good. Plutonia came out in 1996 and it's just...good. Not good if you play it a particular way, save or don't save. No excuses are needed about the development tools they used or any thing like that. It stands on its own.

[T-Rex]

1 hour ago, Akagi666 said:

I strongly believe that good art doesn't require its audience to make excuses for it. You don't listen to the Beatles and start making excuses about how recording techniques weren't as advanced in the 60s, you just listen to the music. You don't look at a Picasso painting and start making excuses about the kinds of paintbrushes they had back then. As soon as you have to start making excuses about historical context, tools at the time etc. it should be a red flag that the subject isn't actually good. Plutonia came out in 1996 and it's just...good. Not good if you play it a particular way, save or don't save. No excuses are needed about the development tools they used or any thing like that. It stands on its own.

No one's dunking on Plutonia. Plutonia is by far a good megawad from 1996, for the most part, since I find Hunted to be a crudely done concept of the arch-vile maze, which still makes sense, given the time it came out. However, for someone to make a statement that it is accessible for casual gamers on Ultra-Violence, that doesn't fly as it downplays the intentions of the Casali Brothers. Besides, this isn't about Plutonia, this is about Dean of Doom focusing too much on the worst aspects of some megawads from the mid-late 90s that are classics and even been regarded as the best back in their times without acknowledging that they can be fun just because he pistol-starts all the levels on UV as it just discourages other people getting into Doom to give them a try.

[Akagi666]

6 minutes ago, T-Rex said:

No one's dunking on Plutonia. Plutonia is by far a good megawad from 1996, for the most part, since I find Hunted to be a crudely done concept of the arch-vile maze, which still makes sense, given the time it came out. However, for someone to make a statement that it is accessible for casual gamers on Ultra-Violence, that doesn't fly as it downplays the intentions of the Casali Brothers. Besides, this isn't about Plutonia, this is about Dean of Doom focusing too much on the worst aspects of some megawads from the mid-late 90s that are classics and even been regarded as the best back in their times as it just discourages other people getting into Doom to give them a try.

Plutonia is just an example here, not a reply to your post. I'm talking about people making all these excuses for 90s wads that they were good back in the day and the tools back then were shite etc. Who cares if something was good or not back in the day? If it's good now is what matters. Most of those wads from the 90s are garbage, which is why you see people making all these excuses. Good levels don't need excuses.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Akagi666

[Razza]

What was with all the talk about MtPain "personally attacking" mappers in this episode? You guys made it sound like he was ripping into someone as badly as he did with Gene Bird, but the worst I heard was mild frustration with some very legitimate sounding gripes he had with the wad. Either I went blind and deaf, or people are a bit too sensitive over a bit of criticism. Judging by previous discussions about wads he hasn't liked, it seems to be a lot of the former

[Zulk RS]

1 minute ago, Razza said:

 Either I went blind and deaf, or people are a bit too sensitive over a bit of criticism. Judging by previous discussions about wads he hasn't liked, it seems to be a lot of the former

 

... You've gone blind and deaf?

[whybmonotacrab]

Yeah, can someone please actually cite the alleged personal attacks? I heard some mild ribbing at absolute worst.

[LSC Lasico]

24 minutes ago, whybmonotacrab said:

Yeah, can someone please actually cite the alleged personal attacks? I heard some mild ribbing at absolute worst.

It's either one of the two options.

 

1) Sand in the eyes type o' stuff made to disguise the fact that their argument is very weak.

 

2) They liked this wad, and consider a negative criticism of it to be a criticism towards their tastes, and therefore, to their persona (from their POV) and then project this perception of a personal insult onto the review and MT pain itself.

 

Im only just guessing, in reality I aint know shit about the lives of other people, but what I do know is that I agree with this.

[VaibhavRM]

@Helm, you put into words exactly what I wanted to convey but couldn't find 🫡

[baja blast rd.]

A couple 10x10 clips I had.

 

Here's a comfortable strategy for this area in map05. When enemies are all back-facing, I like looking for approaches that begin by waking one enemy up and making it infight with something else.

 

 

Also reality-ing this part of map09. (I wasn't planning on it but just went with it.) This is not easy to do because it requires controlling movement speed finely on that very bumpy floor, but it shows that 'moving at some speed between walk and a sprint' is a very important skill because it's not really possible especially in the first half without doing that.

 

 

[Uni]

Good review by Mtpain. Requiem is a mixed bag and has more sentimental value than actually being good. It has its moments but the stinkers in it are some of the worst maps I have ever played from a 90's WAD. I replayed it again because of the episode and oh boy is MAP12 a massive speedbump. Aside from its name and kind of cool text file, the map is pretty much a mess. Also as much as I like Capellan's mapping style, his short maps toward the end felt out of place to me.

[Kwisior]

1 hour ago, Uni said:

Also as much as I like Capellan's mapping style, his short maps toward the end felt out of place to me

That's because maps 20, 25 and 26 were intended for Demonfear, but had to be put in to fill the spots and get the project done after a prolonged period of no maps being submitted.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Kwisior