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Jaska

[Release] Lost Civilization 2 part 1, the introduction!

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14 minutes ago, Firedust said:

Recommended settings for best visuals?

 

I use these.

-Bloom On, important.

-If using Vulkan, high dynamic range on.

-Ambient occlusion on.

-Dynamic lights on

-Shadowmaps on -> to the highest quality

-Texture filter trilinear

-Anisotropic 16x 

 

Those might be the most important ones. Propably you can have better visuals adding FXAA etc, but my computer can't handle more than I listed. Actually I did turn ambien occlusion off as it is quite taxing.

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3 minutes ago, Jaska said:

 

I use these.

-Bloom On, important.

-If using Vulkan, high dynamic range on.

-Ambient occlusion on.

-Dynamic lights on

-Shadowmaps on -> to the highest quality

-Texture filter trilinear

-Anisotropic 16x 

 

Those might be the most important ones. Propably you can have better visuals adding FXAA etc, but my computer can't handle more than I listed. Actually I did turn ambien occlusion off as it is quite taxing.

Thanks :3

 

Wanted to get the same level of quality as in your screenies, because they look breathtaking.

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Cool, Lost Civilization I was great.

 

A question. Part 1 means... how many parts do you plan to have?

Will they come fairly soon as they are in progress already or are you waiting to have feedback of Part 1 to start the next ones, to know what you should do?

How many levels does Part 1 have?

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Checking this out now. The first one is one of my very favorite Wads in recent years; impeccably balanced and fun. I will be sure to give you feedback when I am finished. Hopefully my new computer can handle this beauty.

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5 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

Cool, Lost Civilization I was great.

 

A question. Part 1 means... how many parts do you plan to have?

Will they come fairly soon as they are in progress already or are you waiting to have feedback of Part 1 to start the next ones, to know what you should do?

How many levels does Part 1 have?

 

Thanks! At least 2 parts hopefully. I have already made something which I can just expand. I have also lots of ideas. Planning to keep the size down so I won't exhaust myself as can happen on bigger projects. 1st version was too big. No idea when I would release part 2 though. Propably in 1-2 years. Well I had problems on this also as it was getting out of my reach, too big and nonlinear without proper vision. So I started mapping from scratch on May, narrowed the progression. Part 1 has only one level, being an introduction to all new things. Yes, I listen the feedback carefully to adjust the gameplay on part 2. So it was quite important to keep part 1 quite small. Part 2 will be more nonlinear, I think.

 

2 minutes ago, 666shooter said:

Checking this out now. The first one is one of my very favorite Wads in recent years; impeccably balanced and fun. I will be sure to give you feedback when I am finished. Hopefully my new computer can handle this beauty.

 

Thanks!  I'm sure as you have a new one. There can be problems on older ones as it's not too smooth on my computer either. But this isn't too new, heh.

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7 minutes ago, Jaska said:

Part 1 has only one level, being an introduction to all new things. Yes, I listen the feedback carefully to adjust the gameplay on part 2. So it was quite important to keep part 1 quite small.

So, other side, part 1 is only testing how people are gonna give you feedback and how part 2 will look like, interesting.

Gonna play this soon, i love Lost civilization 1 and i'm hyped for this.

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1 minute ago, HitBoi64 said:

So, other side, part 1 is only testing how people are gonna give you feedback and how part 2 will look like, interesting.

Gonna play this soon, i love Lost civilization 1 and i'm hyped for this.

 

Well, world building will be not affected too much on the feedback. Gameplay will. Yeah as part 1 has a lot of new stuff before I add like ledge climbing all over the place it is good to hear if it is needed at all.

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First bug: the camera moves as if I was seasick. It happens even before clicking on New Game. I turned off all my mods and it still happens. I'm using the latest stable GZDoom version.

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19 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

First bug: the camera moves as if I was seasick. It happens even before clicking on New Game. I turned off all my mods and it still happens. I'm using the latest stable GZDoom version.

 

Damn, uploading fix ASAP.

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21 minutes ago, Jaska said:

Well, world building will be not affected too much on the feedback. Gameplay will.

I didn't mean "look" I meant "how it will be".

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I would love to run this for you, but I cannot replace all of the Saves for my GZDoom 4.4.2 right now and this gives me an error for anything less than 4.5. I tried downloading GZDoom 4.5 and running this separately by dragging the file, but there's a "IWAD Info: Bad Syntax Line 107" error whenever I try to start it up. The only way I know to fix that would be to replace all of my existing GZDoom files, and I don't even know if that would work. 

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Amazing stuff! I guess it will not work on LZDoom? I need to play some soccer with the demons!

Edited by Noiser

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8 hours ago, 666shooter said:

I would love to run this for you, but I cannot replace all of the Saves for my GZDoom 4.4.2 right now and this gives me an error for anything less than 4.5. I tried downloading GZDoom 4.5 and running this separately by dragging the file, but there's a "IWAD Info: Bad Syntax Line 107" error whenever I try to start it up. The only way I know to fix that would be to replace all of my existing GZDoom files, and I don't even know if that would work. 

 

So it won't run on clean install of GZDoom 4.5.0? That sounds strange. I tried searching for that error but didn't found anything. 

 

7 hours ago, Noiser said:

Amazing stuff! I guess it will not work on LZDoom? I need to play some soccer with the demons!

 

Well it seems to work on LZDoom also, I haven't been on track on its development at all. Sorry! Good to know there is at least one alterantive.

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I finally got it to work by creating a new folder and launching it via drag and drop from there, and it worked fine. Having gotten it running and finishing the demo, I am going to be very critical in this review. Please don't let my words dissuade you from continuing to develop this project- you have a fantastic start here, and as I've stated on multiple occasions, the first Lost Civ is a masterpiece of modern Wadmaking, so I want to see the sequel become the best it can possibly be. So I will try to be detailed in the hope of offering things to consider as you go forward with your development.

 

Visuals- There are definitely a few moments, such as first disembarking from the boat and when you approach and autosave point, for instance, when the game overwhelms the engine and the framerate tanks, but its not gamebreaking. In that regard, much like the original, it is an absolute feast for the eyes. Your work on small detailing is impeccable and creates a believable environment that is begging to be explored inch by inch. I love the different interiors from the bars to shop windows to the balconies of the hotel, and that genuine feeling of a world of luxury fallen into decay. This is above and beyond your strength, and I have no suggestions to improve. Keep up the great work.

 

Layout- The first game was heavily into exploration, but it takes on a new depth here, thanks to using items in the inventory to progress and the light puzzle elements that this entails. Simply by exploring the environment, I was able to find all the components I needed to solve a puzzle, and sections like the generator in the garage or fixing electrical wiring all seemed intuitive; this wasn't Resident Evil or Silent Hill, and it gave me satisfaction because it made sense.

On the flipside of that, the navigation of the environment can be confusing at times, and while this was occasionally a minor point in the original, here finding my way around proved confusing at first. I wasn't sure what to do in the garage, and I was wandering the alleyways at the start looking for the next area for several minutes. I think perhaps using monster or item placement could make this a bit clearer. Again, not a deal breaker, but some players might find being lost in this civilization more frustrating than others. The only time I was about ready to quit due to confusion was the big fight near the construction site and hotel before the beach near the end of the map; I think your use of crates can be confusing since the environments are so detailed and blocked paths are easy to miss.

 

Gameplay-I'm going to separate gameplay from combat since I have much more to say about the latter, and I'll use this section to touch on the weapons and navigation. I normally hate platforming in Doom Wads- too often it feels forced and clunky, but thanks to your integration of manteling and very simple jumping sections, it never felt frustrating to move around here. The guns are- a mixed bag. I felt woefully underpowered at the start of the map and the initial single shotgun handles atrociously, its accuracy almost completely nullified if you aren't close to point-blank when firing. The slow firerate of the plasma blaster pistol feels terrible when faced down with multiple chaingunners (especially the Uber variants) and the auto-pistol just feels flimsy. The axe is a joke of a weapon in this current build- too slow and weak to be effective in combat, and even a chore to use breaking those surprisingly resilient crates (I think those big ones might have a little too much health, as I whacked away a good six or seven times before they finally broke). In brief, I think the starting weapons could use a little more heft, because I often felt unfairly outmatched with the inaccuracy and lower-power of the weapons combined with the low starting health. Ammo and health themselves were a huge problem in the first half of the map until I got the riot shotgun (the one from Winter's Fury), which improved the combat dramatically, but I was dying a lot and became extremely frustrated by the slow trickle of supplies at the start. I get that it's an uphill battle, but it isn't fun and feels like it could use a lot of rebalancing. Maybe medkits could be a little more effective or enemies could drop more ammo when they die? Sometimes I got a few shells or a clip or two, but this was never consistent.

 

Combat- This brings me to the final section, which I currently feel is the weakest part of the Wad- you've nailed the exploration, the design is excellent (with maybe an additional marker or two so the player doesn't get too confused), but the combat itself ranged from decent to outright infuriating; I was never having a good time. I played on HMP, and I got hurt a little more than just Plenty. I'll be blunt- there were many, many times this Wad left me angry and frustrated, as projectiles came seemingly out of nowhere, I was sniped from all sides, my health dropped from 50 to 0 in a matter of seconds, and I was cursing in the search for better guns, ammo, and more health. The sniper section epitomizes my frustration- the enemies kill you in seconds before you have time to see where the projectiles are coming from. I don't think the custom enemies are the issue here, necessarily- its that its too much, too quickly. From the homing attacks of the new imps to the instant-kill psychic wave of the Arachnorb, to the poison projectiles of the Roach and flying Mancubus, and the hyper-fast stream of projectiles from the former human (the one with the yellow plasma bolts) I just didn't like this very much at all. But being surrounded and fighting off multiple powerful enemies is part of Doom; look at slaughtermaps after all, and those don't necessarily have to feel unfair of unbalanced despite the extremity of the fights being part of their design philosophy, right? Hurt and Bad Religion both use a lot of custom monsters, and those are great maps. So... why isn't it working here? Part of what I think makes things frustrating is how easy it is for enemies to hide in the detailed environments and ambush the player- this was one of the few big problems I had with the first one as well, but since they were standard Doom enemies, once you knew how to spot them, you could get the upper hand because the balance still felt right. With such a complex environment seeping with so much detail, and the homing and high-damage nature of so many of the new enemies' attacks, coupled with the health and ammo restriction that forces constant scavenging, things just never tilted the other way for me, and I spent the entire map annoyed as I was dying and savescumming just to move a few inches. I'm not an expert in this field, but I think rebalancing the weapons and monster damage and attacks could be helpful, and pay special attention to how often RNG puts the player at a disadvantage; my shotgun shells were always dwindling with the chaingunners and Mancubi; the sniper rifle's damage output seems all over the place- RNG might not be the best approach with a weapon like that, or maybe just tighten the range?

 

On a final note, the NPC dialogue might benefit from a dedicated translator or translation app or service. I'm not trying to make fun of you here; I've worked with students in my last job who barely spoke any English and using any language different from your own is very difficult, as I found when trying to speak Spanish to them in return. This again wasn't gamebreaking- I could understand what was being communicated over 90% of the time. It's something to consider addressing, if you have the time, just to create a more polished final project.

To summarize in brief- keep building on what you have here, but maybe consider tightening up the combat, removing a few monsters perhaps or buffing some of the weapons for accuracy or damage or reworking some of the custom monsters' behaviors and attacks. Take some time to reconsider the enemy placement and how health and ammo are distributed, particularly in the first half of the map. Or don't. It's your Wad of course, and at the end of the day, playtesters like me can only offer suggestions, in the hopes that the final project will be even better for it. Thank you for releasing this demo, and I very much look forward to playing more of the game as it develops.

 

Best of luck and success,

666Shooter

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Played it on HMP with puzzles enabled.   

First of all: Beautiful Design. Everything is so detailed and every place looks unique. This is almost on the level of Ion Fury.     

But the gameplay didn't always sit right with me. Maybe it's because it's a demo and you wanted to show what guns will be included in future versions, but I found it irritating and a bit annoying to have three pistols and shotguns. all pistols did similar damage and had similar alt-fires, and one barely had ammo, so it felt obsolete.

   

I also think there are too many hitscan enemies in unfair places. Hitscan chaingunner on far away roofs, balconies, and open places with much foliage are quickly overlooked and melt your hp away, while you still have to figure out where you are being shot from. I would reduce the use of hitscan enemies only to indoor or tighter areas, where you don't overlook them because of tree and flower sprites.   

Also the boss in the fountain-soul sphere area wrecked me so many times. The homing AoE attack is too strong and hard to avoid when you have to take care of other monsters in the area. But the portable chain gun seems to be broken and didn't help me against the boss and sometimes didn't fire at smaller enemies at all either.  

The custom monsters felt a little tanky too or maybe my guns are too weak. The first shotgun didn't one-shot the custom imps and sometimes needs 3 shots for the custom chaingunner. I feel like I would have more fun if I played with a gameplay mod, so at least it's a great thing that you still took care of allowing gameplay mods.  

 

But what I enjoyed the most was the apartments where you can destroy all the walls. You can be strategic with mines and canisters, there's a lot of action, no unfair hitscanners placements and just a lot of fun seeing the place getting destroyed when you shoot something explosive. And killing enemies with collapsing ceilings is hilarious.    

 

Generally I think it was a fun map even with some gameplay issues and every part was impressive with it's visuals. 

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On 11/7/2020 at 12:02 PM, Jaska said:

You should activate "alternate hud" from options before I figure out how to make my own hud.

You might want to just draw a mockup and post a thread on ZDoom's resource request subforum. It's fucking Lost Civilization 2, people will jump up to make a custom HUD in a heartbeat.

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15 hours ago, 666shooter said:

-long text-


Criticism is good. And I think you are right on all the cases.

BTW did you have dynamic lights on? 

 

-Made a bit clearer where to go on the garage section.
-Changed crate placement a bit on the hotel.
-First shotgun is meant to be shitty one, but you're right, I lowered the health of the new imp and changed stronger chaingunners away on most spots. Did you notice plasmabolter had secondary fire?
-Lowered health of the crates. On some cases you could bump crates a bit with secondary attack so you could slip through. Big crates had too much health because I thought them as a gameplay elements in future scenario but I have to think it again.
-Removed the "boss" from HMP. Also changed balance otherwise.
-Have to check out the ammo & health balance.
-Made 1st shotgun slightly more accurate.
-English sure isn't my native language. Going to check dialogs.

Thanks for the very detailed feedback. Gameplay shouldn't feel annoying and now it surely sounds like it. And for normal difficulty it should be just smooth.

 

[edit] And I don't get where the PFS drops come from. Even with renderstats & rendertimes & VM. Should propably record demo or something.

 

11 hours ago, Lampenpam said:

-long text-

 

-I removed one pistol as it was futile.
-There was an idea that you just drop weapons as you get better ones or use different depending you ammo situation. Like you want to drop the 1st shotgun as you get the swat shotgun etc. The plasma shotgun was kind of secret extra weapon and I'm not sure of it's usefulness myself.
-I removed some distant enemies and balancing on general.
-Have to check out the portable turret.

[edit]-Also made mag60 a bit more powerful and first shots more accurate.

 

Thanks for the feedback! I'm going to test it today more and upload updated version quite soon.

Edited by Jaska

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4 hours ago, Chopkinsca said:

That looks amazing. My poor laptop would probably overheat trying to run it.

 

I tried on Lenovo T430 with HD4000-graphics.. With LZDoom, all major graphical imrovements off it's "playable". Last two bigger areas are quite bad though. But hey, original Doom had 35 FPS cap?

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32 minutes ago, Jaska said:

Updated download links. Did some balancing.

Thanks for taking these things into consideration, Jaska. I'm glad me and @Lampenpam were able to provide feedback that was useful to you. I've never recorded a demo before, but if someone can instruct me how to do so, I'd be willing to try it with the updated version for you?

 

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I'm finally playing this. For now it surprised me because well, it's the opposite of Los Civilization 1! That megawad levels were mostly open and nonlinear solid Doom, with a well adjusted difficulty that never went to high, while this is super linear, tight and scripted, more reminiscent of Half Life 1, including small puzzles, with some enemies encounters designed as set pieces too, and the difficulty is a bit too high in the intro, where you  have barely ammo, health or armor.

edit: hell, the style of weapons also reminded me of more 'realistic' FPS, with things like the sniper bolt rifle. It's almost bizarre the weapon don't need to reload, as the entire wad feels like that type of game.

Edited by Turin Turambar

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I've tested on LZDoom 3.87a. It's runs with very bad fps drops making it completely unplayable. I understand that's because of those details you added, but... Good grief! It really needs to improve map's optimization. 

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