Doom 64 - I Don't Get It

[Murdoch]

I tried to play Doom 64 on the Nintendo 64 back in the day, thought it played horribly and felt very un-Doom like.

 

I tried to play the Doom 64: Absolution TC back in the day. Got fed up by MAP13 cause I could not figure out where the hell to go. Also felt that while there were some really atmospheric moments and creative use of the engine, many of the levels were incredibly badly designed. One of the tech levels - MAP05 maybe - in particular seemed expressly designed to be as obtuse as possible.

 

Restarted it again with the Retribution about six months ago. Got fed up in many of the same points as before but yay actually animated shotguns and again, definitely many cool things to admire. I still found it a slog though. But I wanted to complete it. Tonight I finally cracked MAP13 (yes the blue key was temporarily accessible in the middle of the room with the barrage of spears because apparently this is Tomb Raider now?), got to MAP14. Solid map, gorgeous parallax sky, thunder in the background. Wanted more. Felt too short. MAP15, nice atmospheric opening and wtf why am I suddenly getting pounded with homing rockets now? Got killed, reloaded, got to a side area, teleported to a room. Could hear Arachnatrons, figured they were in the next room cause I could not see them but no suddenly I am being hit by plasma fire. Randomly sprayed rockets and killed the bad guys I could not see through a wall because hey that's fun right? Then I hit the switch and a soul sphere appears and disappears over five small pillars. Then switches rise  up. I hit switch, kill the lost souls that appeared after I picked up the armour bonus that appeared on the matching column. Nothing else happens. Can't get the blue key, still to high up, no way out. I notice the initial switch has returned. Hit it, sequence starts again and I think OK do I have to hit the switch across from where the soulsphere last appears? Same as before, armour bonus, lost soul, but this time I get a teleport out even though I can't yet get the blue key. Teleport out, step forward, and immediately get destroyed by the homing rockets I forgot about. Sorry, but how is this sequence of events in any way fun and in any way, well, Doom? I got angry, exited the game, and deleted the WAD. Nearly 20 years and I still just cannot bring myself to stand the frustration for the sake of completing it.

I should clarify, if you like Doom 64, honest to God I am thrilled. This is just one asshole's subjective opinion. We all like different things. I guess I am frustrated because it's so very nearly there. There is a lot to like. I have often said almost good things are more frustrating than just straight up bad things. I have a pretty short fuse when it comes to annoying sections in games. I guess what I want to get insight into by making this post is am I the only one? I am struggling to remember anyone else saying a bad word against the game on these forums. It seems to be pretty well loved. And also, to it's fans, what do you like about it exactly? I genuinely want to know. And what's your take on the annoying parts above that I highlighted? Thank you for your time.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Murdoch

[seed]

1 minute ago, Murdoch said:

And also, to it's fans, what do you like about it exactly? I genuinely want to know.

 

I love its atmosphere and music, plus I find its balance between action and atmosphere to be just right, not too fast, not to slow, and the weapons are punchier. The Unmaker is also a great new toy, but pointless without the keys.

 

It also has a few new tricks up its sleeve, with more aggressive Lost Souls, but weaker and exploding through walls, an actually new boss, and some script shenanigans, like that teleporting blue key. The homing missiles from near the end were... eh, not much to say about them, and no doubt a workaround for the absence of the Revenant. But they added a bit of tension to Unholy Temple.

 

It's my favorite classic Doom game, followed by PSX Doom, and PC Doom.

[Dr. Crowley]

I can understand your frustration - actually I am pretty wondered that you made it so far in this game because I always give up after MAP04. Doom 64 was always a mixed bag for me. Sure, it is "true Doom 3" and whatever and this is very good and solid adventure with its unique style and atmosphere. Unfortunately this is just that kind of style and atmosphere I don't really like. Too many unfair traps and grimness for my taste. I don't mean it is bad, no - it just so happens that I like something different. And for some really weird reason I have much more fun playing "Doom 64 maps for Doom 2" megawad than real Doom 64. Maybe it's because PC Doom is my "childhood memory" (well, I was actually 16 or 17 when I played it) and Doom64 or PSX Doom is not. Or maybe these are all these Hexen-like fireball traps and general deadliness of surroundings. No idea, honestly.

[bfredric]

I'm in a similar camp. I tried Doom 64 on the N64 way back when but it was too dark and the music and sfx really freaked me out. Brutal

Doom 64 brought be around. It's definitely an adventure, and VERY unique, I can say that.

[snapshot]

I played through Doom 64 once, but I have no strong feelings towards it and no desire to replay it, not enough monsters to shoot, dull music that makes me fall asleep, too easy to get lost in the levels. I like the look and the creativity of some of the levels near the end, with all the moving walls and quirky level tricks, but that's where the positives end for me. Oddly enough I ended playing Doom 3 more than Doom 64, I re-visit Doom 3 at least once every other year. Doom 64 was like a one time deal for me.

[Doom-X-Machina]

I've only ever spent about 20 minutes playing Doom64. I never owned an N64 back in the day (was a Sony kid) so never really got to sink my teeth into it. I got a free copy with Doom Eternal on Steam so it's been right in front of me on my desktop since March. I really should take it for a spin...

[leodoom85]

3 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

I tried to play the Doom 64: Absolution TC back in the day. Got fed up by MAP13 cause I could not figure out where the hell to go. Also felt that while there were some really atmospheric moments and creative use of the engine, many of the levels were incredibly badly designed. One of the tech levels - MAP05 maybe - in particular seemed expressly designed to be as obtuse as possible.

You have my sympathies for trying Absolution, the harder version of Doom 64 copycats.

And I get your concerns for those maps. The first time that you play those maps, it's quite infuriating but not as much as map 23, Unholy Temple. That one with the switch combinations....I actually wonder if you reached that map. 

 

Aside of those tiny nitpicks and some more around other maps, what stands more for the game is the atmosphere. Even if the game is somewhat easier due of the absence of some annoying monsters thanks to the cartridge's limitation, the maps are good. That's some of the positive points about the game and counters the negative points easily.

 

PS: try reaching the "fun" maps and Hectic. Probably you'll rage more :D

 

EDIT: BTW, I'd play D64 copycats again, like Retribution and the like (except Brutal Doom 64)

Edited November 13, 2020 by leodoom85

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Doom 64 didn't really click with me the first time I played it until I got about halfway through. Now it is my favorite classic Doom game. It still feels a lot more evil than Doom/2 and even a lot of modern wads. I love things like Doom64, Doom PSX, and Threshold of Pain.

[leodoom85]

2 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I love things like Doom64, Doom PSX, and Threshold of Pain.

Now that you mentioned ToP 1, you should try Fall of Triton, a PSX-like megawad then, which is like if you play PSX Doom but with the chaingunners and archviles added. I wonder if the maker removed that annoying handicap that you move slower if you have below 50 HP.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

2 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Now that you mentioned ToP 1, you should try Fall of Triton, a PSX-like megawad then, which is like if you play PSX Doom but with the chaingunners and archviles added. I wonder if the maker removed that annoying handicap that you move slower if you have below 50 HP.

Based on my understanding the original version was better, but I get an error when loading it with GzDoom. I didn't hear many great things about the "remake" of it.

[idbeholdME]

I finished it once and while I could call the experience somewhat fun due to being new, I have zero desire to ever replay it again. Levels, "music" and pretty much everything just felt pretty mediocre.

[Cacodoomonic]

5 hours ago, Murdoch said:

I tried to play Doom 64 on the Nintendo 64 back in the day, thought it played horribly and felt very un-Doom like.

 

I tried to play the Doom 64: Absolution TC back in the day. Got fed up by MAP13 cause I could not figure out where the hell to go. Also felt that while there were some really atmospheric moments and creative use of the engine, many of the levels were incredibly badly designed. One of the tech levels - MAP05 maybe - in particular seemed expressly designed to be as obtuse as possible.

 

Restarted it again with the Rebirth about six months ago. Got fed up in many of the same points as before but yay actually animated shotguns and again, definitely many cool things to admire. I still found it a slog though. But I wanted to complete it. Tonight I finally cracked MAP13 (yes the blue key was temporarily accessible in the middle of the room with the barrage of spears because apparently this is Tomb Raider now?), got to MAP14. Solid map, gorgeous parallax sky, thunder in the background. Wanted more. Felt too short. MAP15, nice atmospheric opening and wtf why am I suddenly getting pounded with homing rockets now? Got killed, reloaded, got to a side area, teleported to a room. Could hear Arachnatrons, figured they were in the next room cause I could not see them but no suddenly I am being hit by plasma fire. Randomly sprayed rockets and killed the bad guys I could not see through a wall because hey that's fun right? Then I hit the switch and a soul sphere appears and disappears over five small pillars. Then switches rise  up. I hit switch, kill the lost souls that appeared after I picked up the armour bonus that appeared on the matching column. Nothing else happens. Can't get the blue key, still to high up, no way out. I notice the initial switch has returned. Hit it, sequence starts again and I think OK do I have to hit the switch across from where the soulsphere last appears? Same as before, armour bonus, lost soul, but this time I get a teleport out even though I can't yet get the blue key. Teleport out, step forward, and immediately get destroyed by the homing rockets I forgot about. Sorry, but how is this sequence of events in any way fun and in any way, well, Doom? I got angry, exited the game, and deleted the WAD. Nearly 20 years and I still just cannot bring myself to stand the frustration for the sake of completing it.

I should clarify, if you like Doom 64, honest to God I am thrilled. This is just one asshole's subjective opinion. We all like different things. I guess I am frustrated because it's so very nearly there. There is a lot to like. I have often said almost good things are more frustrating than just straight up bad things. I have a pretty short fuse when it comes to annoying sections in games. I guess what I want to get insight into by making this post is am I the only one? I am struggling to remember anyone else saying a bad word against the game on these forums. It seems to be pretty well loved. And also, to it's fans, what do you like about it exactly? I genuinely want to know. And what's your take on the annoying parts above that I highlighted? Thank you for your time.

The answer to your question. It is a horror game. Pure horror in atmosphere, design and sound. Horror is very important to me in Doom. I was brought up with PS1 Doom so Doom 64 is naturally the next step. This is why PS1 Doom, Doom 64 and Doom 3 are my favourite Dooms. I love all doom of course but horror doom is my jam. Keep in mind as a child playing ps1 doom... it was scary. I want that vibe when I play a doom game.

[kmxexii]

I replayed Doom 64 over the past couple of weeks to take a look at the official PC release. It's become something like my favorite flavor of Doom but I wouldn't feel bad for not liking it. The devs were partly informed by the release of Hexen and I feel that this is reflected in its often obtuse puzzle play and trap density (not to forget the highly horror atmospheric soundtrack as continued from PSX). I've heard the original Doom described as more of a dungeon crawler than a first person shooter and while I disagree I can see where the sentiment comes from. It feels like Doom 64 takes this avenue even deeper. This could naturally be at odds with the oft-expressed sentiment that Doom 64 is the "true" Doom 3. It sounds right based on the new engine features but the expectations of players concerning the logical level design extensions from Doom II obviously differ. If the Steam achievements page is to be taken as a reasonable sampling of the overall player base then less than 10% of the people who decided to try it out actually got to and beat the final boss.

[GraphicBleeder]

I absolutely love wads that make it feel like the game is actively against you, which makes it all the more satisfying when you overcome and beat it, and Doom 64 really sells that atmosphere for me.

 

Also, the shotguns feel way punchier and meatier than Doom or Doom 2's shotguns are. 

[chexwarrior]

Like everyone else is saying the dark atmosphere, especially the music which I think is a lot better than the typical Doom 1 & 2 soundtracks, really makes the game for me.  Beyond that, to me it plays like classic Doom albeit missing some of the better monsters which is a shame.

[Serum]

While the level design is somewhat convoluted, I always welcome horror shooters. This one feels especially desolate and unsettling. It makes me feel strange and alone, in a good way.

 

Also this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think the Brutal Doom 64 mod for Doom 2 is by far the superior way to play this game.

[Murdoch]

Edited my post, called it Rebirth when I meant Retribution.

 

Thank you all for your contributions. Very interesting. It seems there is loose correlation between which version you played first as a kid, though clearly it is by no means a hard and fast rule. I am sure plenty of people like both regardless of which version they played first. I played the original Shareware Doom not long after it's original release, and it and it's style of gameplay is pretty much muscle memory for me now. I suppose that plays a part too. Doom 64 is similar and yet different, and that can be disconcerting. People are creatures of habit, if nothing else

I do not feel bad for not liking it, more frustrated because as mentioned there is a lot to like, and not having played it all feels like I am missing part of the Doom story. I like horror shooters. I like Doom 3 a lot even with it's flaws for example. But so many of the Doom 64's maps just seem deliberately dickish. I like challenge, not excessive frustration. The line between the two though is very fine, can be very blurry and will often depend on the player's mentality. My own is definitely not well attuned to it. Ah well.

[Nevander]

Doom 64 requires something that none of the others really do: patience. If you are naturally an impatient and unobservant person, you're gonna have a bad time. Can't simply run into each map guns blazing to win. It takes time to learn the maps, know what's coming, planning for encounters, learning the puzzles and more.

[Juza]

In my opinion, it's awfully overrated. The good visuals cannot save the slow gameplay, non-sensical puzzles and switch-hunting.

[Murdoch]

42 minutes ago, Nevander said:

Doom 64 requires something that none of the others really do: patience. If you are naturally an impatient and unobservant person, you're gonna have a bad time. Can't simply run into each map guns blazing to win. It takes time to learn the maps, know what's coming, planning for encounters, learning the puzzles and more.

 

To me, that is the complete opposite of good game design. If the only way a player can realistically do a puzzle or survive a section of combat is to have already done it, then in my opinion you have failed as a map designer. Spring a trap, sure, but give a player not in the know a reasonable chance to react to it. Constant reloads due to dickish design aren't fun to me. Hiding enemies but still letting them be able to get a shot at you isn't fun. Filling the room with shooting spears  while the blue key appears on the far side while the player does the obvious thing and seek cover so they are unlikely to see it isn't really a puzzle. It doesn't require thought to solve it, more dumb luck that you see it in the distance between trying to figure out the timing. In fact when I first hit that switch in map 13 my first thought was it lowered the obvious switch activated bars on the other side of the map. There was no clue that would suggest the key would be revealed. Speaking of that section, what did I find in there? Another switch. No enemies. Nothing. That's another thing I consider bad map design - wasting the players time.

[seed]

7 hours ago, Murdoch said:

If the only way a player can realistically do a puzzle or survive a section of combat is to have already done it, then in my opinion you have failed as a map designer.

 

There aren't really any such instances in the game, however.

[holaareola]

10 minutes ago, seed said:

 

There aren't really any such instances in the game, however.

Hectic?!  I know, not really part of the game, just being a dick :)

 

I like Doom 64. Its consistent art style (though I also love the collage-esque digital punk of the originals)  and the ubiquitous use of gradient lighting gives it a distinct look versus other 3d games. But while there are some standouts I think the level design is more basic and less imaginative than its forebears at their best. Lots of symmetry, lots of orthogonal walls. Where is anything of the interconnected flow of E1M7? Even Pitfalls has you spending half your time squeezing through self-contained corridors. It also lacks the gonzo Sandy Petersen touches of e.g. E3M6 or MAP24 (love it or hate it, you will not forget it). The trial-and-error switch hunting is tiresome, In my book, calling this stuff puzzles is an insult to puzzles. 

 

But if you fight past the ugly spots, you have some very fun and atmospheric maps, amazing skies and a plasma rifle sound that doesn't break one's ears.

[seed]

32 minutes ago, holaareola said:

Hectic?!  I know, not really part of the game, just being a dick :)

 

Yeah, but that's a super secret map (not even a regular secret map), and it was purposefully designed to bullshit the player.

[Murdoch]

1 hour ago, seed said:

 

There aren't really any such instances in the game, however.

 

The homing rocket section in MAP15 is pretty borderline. I did find cover but took a couple of bad hits. And that's OK. That part of my comments were more general in that response; not directed at Doom 64 specifically. The rest of the comment was though.

 

Quote

The trial-and-error switch hunting is tiresome, In my book, calling this stuff puzzles is an insult to puzzles.

 

Completely agreed. Definitely not puzzles. There was another early tech map where a I missed a switch because the textures were so muddy and indistinct that I actually looked right at it and did not even realise it was a switch until I watched a YouTube walkthrough.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Murdoch

[SF.]

I hear you. I respect Doom 64 for what it is and I do appreciate the new graphics, but the game is way too dark and horror-y for my liking. I'd much rather play Doom 64 for Doom II to be honest. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by paturn : Edit

[jazzmaster9]

Doom 64 is my favorite in the series, because of how creative the levels are thanks to the Scripting system, as well as the unique atmosphere which no other Doom games has achieved thanks to the amazing soundtrack.

 

It felt like it's own thing and not trying to be like the Other releases on the PC. I always end up coming back to this game more than the other IWADs.

 

as for dickish/unfair parts, I never really encountered any of that in this game aside from the Secret level and that One Pit trap where the exit room suddenly sinks. All of the traps were pretty fair and easy to maneuver around with patience and observation, so i can't say a agree with this since I encountered almost none of these.

[D4NUK1]

Like @Nevander says, the key of almost all damage tramps, it's pacience. There's always a way to see the tramp before it's damage you (only exception i trink it's MAP15, where if you stay too long on spawn, the little spawn room get missiled by rockets).

 

There always a hint in the hall, a plataform more high that the floor, a small cable across the room. Etc.

 

 

[Dexiaz]

On 11/13/2020 at 4:08 PM, Murdoch said:

I tried to play Doom 64 on the Nintendo 64 back in the day, thought it played horribly and felt very un-Doom like.

 

Oh dear Lord.

 

 

On 11/13/2020 at 2:18 PM, Dr.Ferret said:

I recently played doom eternal and it feels... off. It is a decent game but it does not feel like the doom I know and love

 

                                                                                                           DOOM IS DOOM

 

 

I'm really getting pissed off from such affirmations about "Doom [Place Any Number or Subtitle] doesn't feel/is not Doom game".

 

What? What the hell? What does it mean at all? Any Doom game is Doom. It's like to say Quake 2 is not Quake game.

[AtomicFrog]

11 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

To me, that is the complete opposite of good game design. If the only way a player can realistically do a puzzle or survive a section of combat is to have already done it, then in my opinion you have failed as a map designer. Spring a trap, sure, but give a player not in the know a reasonable chance to react to it. Constant reloads due to dickish design aren't fun to me. Hiding enemies but still letting them be able to get a shot at you isn't fun. Filling the room with shooting spears  while the blue key appears on the far side while the player does the obvious thing and seek cover so they are unlikely to see it isn't really a puzzle. It doesn't require thought to solve it, more dumb luck that you see it in the distance between trying to figure out the timing. In fact when I first hit that switch in map 13 my first thought was it lowered the obvious switch activated bars on the other side of the map. There was no clue that would suggest the key would be revealed. Speaking of that section, what did I find in there? Another switch. No enemies. Nothing. That's another thing I consider bad map design - wasting the players time.

Depends what you think a good game is I suppose.
Anyone completed Quake on their first run through? Im guessing not. Plenty of map learning required there. Is Quake a bad game in your opinion? 
Is it that Doom64 is a 'bad game' with bad map design? Or is it you find it to be unlike Doom2... and therefore a bad game? If its the latter then you should reconsider your opinion of what a 'bad game' is.
Doom2 is a fast pace shooter with switch 'puzzles' a six year old could solve with ease. The maps are very easy to navigate so stopping to wonder what to do next is uncommon. Doom64 is a slower pace shooter with the emphasis on 'horror' with some switch puzzles that require a little thought to solve.

Personally I love Quake... but I dislike Quake 2. But I dont think Quake 2 is a bad game just because it's not to my liking.

 

 

[Mr.Peanut]

If you had an N64 back in the day, it was the only choice for a doomlike experience. Doom64, with its darker creepier design and its isolationalism ambient soundtrack, delivered. I remember sitting playing at night in my bachelor apartment and having to stop because it was making me feel sick with tension. I had previously played Doom I on a 386 with an internal speaker (never managed to finish as one level was unplayable on that machine unless the screen was reduced to the size a postage stamp). For me it was my first fully playable doom experience so I have a soft spot for it. What I found most irritating is how a lot of ambush traps warped in enemies instead of being hidden behind walls.