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The Strife Commando

Why Is The Original Unreal Not As Well Known As The Unreal Tournament Series And Quake??

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3 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

It was in development for Mac before moving to the Xbox. Aren't there slow shooters released on PC?

 

It might as well have been a different game at that point.  Even whatever PC version might have existed in the past took a back seat to the Xbox version that was released with the launch of the Xbox that was 100% designed around the controller.  It had to be ported back to PC by Gearbox later on.

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On 12/4/2020 at 10:20 AM, The Strife Commando said:

Which Unreal Tournament game is considered the best and why?

 

The original. Level design, sound design, voice acting for the taunts, music, the way the weapons looked and handled.... nothing can beat it for me!

 

I did like 2003 and 2004's (too bad 2003 was not featured on the anthology) though, even if they were not as good as UT99, they're both a lot of fun--I really loved 2003's introduction of Bombing Run, and 2004's Invasion where you fight waves of Unreal monsters.

 

2007 is on the bottom for me, I tried getting into it but could not. The main campaign had some weird story going on that felt out of place so I never even finished it (my dad did though and he hasn't touched the game since), AND..... IT WAS THE ONLY UNREAL GAME I PLAYED THAT HAD DRM. I could live with disc DRM, but it had.... INTERNET DRM. The worst kind! On top of that, the way it felt playing it... just felt the least Unreal out of the previous. I was very disappointed. 

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8 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

I play Quake 3 on console, and arena shooters work well on console. Turok Rage Wars is an arena fps. For god's sake, arena shooters already worked on consoles! Unreal Tournament 3 is an example. Timesplitters proved it too before. Having multiple weapons is better than 2. Halo was a PC game at first, so the whole mentality of it being slower because of the controller is stupid.

 

Yeah sure arena shooters existed on consoles, but none could compare to Halo's accessibility and thus Halo's popularity. Quake 3 and Timesplitters worked because they were released before Halo. UT3 pretty much flopped on consoles, despite being more console-ish that UT99 and UT2004. Halo's template was followed by most console FPS games for years after it's release.

 

And as for Halo being a Mac game at first, you have to realise that was long before it's eventual release. Between 1999 (when Steve Jobs announced Halo for Mac) and 2001 (when the game was released on XBox), a lot changed. Hell, the 1999 version wasn't even an FPS. It was a 3rd person shooter AFAIK.

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The first Unreal game I ever played was Unreal Tournament 3. It was crap then and it's probably even worse today. What a load of bollocks that was. 

Edited by Ajora

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12 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

Agree to disagree here. Arena FPS games are much harder on consoles compared to modern FPS games. It is extremely difficult to do advanced movement like strafejumping using a controller. Also managing/switching between 2 weapons is much easier than cycling through multiple weapons. Pretty much why Halo's 2 weapon system got popular.

 

I didn't mean only that they are tough with a controller. They are. But what I said is simply that that's not an issue specific to them, that's an issue with most FPSes on console.

 

Also speaking of which, Xbox got support for mouse and keyboard some time ago. No idea if the next gen also has it though, and if PS ever did or will.

 

10 hours ago, Baratus II said:

I never understood what was all the rage in Fortnite to be honest. I seen it as a large-scale "Last Man Standing mode with a mixture of Minecraft" and I felt like Epic went downhill for me when they canned (or put on hold) UT4.

 

As for the first Unreal, it is a great classic and still remembered, but I also considered the deathmatch being not as popular as UT's deathmatch. Other than that the singleplayer and the coop games are really great. I honestly wished Unreal got the same love as Half-Life to be honest.

 

Me neither but careful what you wish.

 

Said "love" means we would have gotten a prequel after almost 20 years after the last game, and it would also be platform exclusive, to lock the majority of players out :p.

 

7 hours ago, AlexMax said:

Epic has more money than they know what to do with at this point, not only because of Fortnite but because of Unreal engine.  If they wanted to make Unreal Tournament as a side thing, they easily could.  The fact that they dropped the project tells me that their opposition to the project had nothing to do with the dollars and cents of it, and more to do that they thought making another arena shooter wasn't a productive use of their time.

 

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot about Splitgate, add that to the pile.

 

Yep, precisely my point. They could have simply made both if they really wanted to, but instead chose the easy route once things got rough for UT, and considering who we're talking about here, I very much doubt it was "just" because these games hardly have a place for the market anymore, at worst it would've been played largely by Unreal/UT fans, and that was still miles better than absolute zero.

 

Better have a dedicated cult playing your games than no-one at all. It barely received any attention from the media and outlets as well, it cannot even compare to Fortnite where every other person talks (or talked) about it, it's insulting. Its publicity and attention was on a whole different level. I recall outlets only talked about it when it received a major update or a new map, otherwise, radio silence.

Edited by seed

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3 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

If 2004 had invasion with campaign styled enemies, why isn't that game considered the best like 99?

 

No idea, but I have to chip in with my personal opinion in that I liked 2k4 the most of the bunch. I've never really reflected on why, but I played it to bits (was on translocator-level by the end) whereas the original always felt a bit crude and jerky to me. Then again, if I remember correctly, the original is faster and I think a lot of people like it that way, but I'm not sure.

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4 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

If 2004 had invasion with campaign styled enemies, why isn't that game considered the best like 99?

Because its not as balanced as UT99 and came out in a different time (okay, only 5 years later, but that's a long time in gamesland).

 

UT99 had a perfect mix of maps, weaponry and fun (mutators, Loque the impossible bot). UT2004 iterated on this with wider maps and vehicle support.

 

Don't get me wrong, 2004 is a sublime game (ONS-Torlan allday everyday) but it just is not as refined as 99.

 

However, if i had to organize a weekend of multiplayer gaming, 2004 would be among the first to pick. Its a brilliant game.

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4 hours ago, Kokoro Hane said:

The original. Level design, sound design, voice acting for the taunts, music, the way the weapons looked and handled.... nothing can beat it for me!

 

I did like 2003 and 2004's (too bad 2003 was not featured on the anthology) though, even if they were not as good as UT99, they're both a lot of fun--I really loved 2003's introduction of Bombing Run, and 2004's Invasion where you fight waves of Unreal monsters.

Let's be honest here: The only thing anyone really remembers about UT2k3 are:

 

1) Walldodging.

2) Lightning Gun sucked as a sniper rifle compared to the UT99 Sniper Rifle, because you couldn't be invisible while you sniped anymore.

3) MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMISTER CROW!!!

 

Personally, I hated the entirely different music style (give me Michiel van den Bos and Alexander Brandon anyday, thank you), I hated the whole eSports vibe of it, the Adrenaline system basically punished the crappier players, it ditched the game modes I liked (Assault, Double Domination was a pale imitation of UT99 Domination), replaced the armor system with a dumbed-down universal shield, I hated the Egyptian map theme... could go on and on, really.

 

2k4 was at least a refined 2k3, and while it still had a lot of that stuff, I could at least go and have some fun in VCTF or Onslaught servers, and I literally played Assault on a weekly basis with basically the best Assault clan on Clanbase at the time (EiF/Existence is Futile).

 

Invasion... ehh. It was okay, but I felt the UT99 TallyHo! mod was better.

 

 

That said, I did have fun with some UT2k4RPG Invasion servers.

 

(And yes, that's me playing. Yes I know the bots are set to derp difficulty. Point is to show the gameplay off, not get my ass kicked, you know? But you should be able to tell by the way I move that I know my shit.)

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1 hour ago, Ajora said:

The first Unreal game I ever played was Unreal Tournament 3. It was crap then and it's probably even worse todays. What a load of bollocks that was. 

 

Truth be told, the game became much better 2-3 years after release due to Titan pack and mods like mapmixer, foxmod and community bonus packs. It also has the most balanced weapons of all UT games.

 

So it is actually a very good game when patched/modded. However, all of this came too late when most of the game's playerbase had already left.

 

4 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

If 2004 had invasion with campaign styled enemies, why isn't that game considered the best like 99?

 

Just because UT2004 has the most gamemodes doesn't automatically make it the best UT game. There are many other factors that should be considered. Also UT2003/2004 probably had worse weapon balance than UT99 and UT3. For me UT99 is still the overall best UT.

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On 12/5/2020 at 2:57 AM, Nekr0s1s said:

also, everyone can make their own dedicated servers and call some buddies to join. you're not at the developer's mercy with regards to shutting down servers.

 

Now this, is something I always found intriguing.

 

Why have dedicated servers almost disappeared, and got traded for online-only functionality and developers/publishers hosting them? That is one way to ensure the game dies for good if its developers disappear, and that it will inevitably be shut down at one point, because no-one keeps them running forever, especially once interest eventually vanishes.

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7 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

If 2004 had invasion with campaign styled enemies, why isn't that game considered the best like 99?

 

I think the true reason is because UT99 get's an extra nostalgia bonus from players. UT2004 was really successful, I think it's on par with UT99.

 

I have to install Unreal again, there were some excellent custom epsiodes released for it (for the Unreal version that was accessible through UT99).

 

@ReaperAA: I remember UT99's weapons as extremely spam friendly, didn't the rocket launcher allow to shoot 6 rockets/grenades at once? UT2004 was more balanced really.

Edited by Tetzlaff

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8 minutes ago, Tetzlaff said:

I remember UT99's weapons as extremely spam friendly, didn't the rocket launcher allow to shoot 6 rockets/grenades at once? UT2004 was more balanced really.

 

Well UT99 wasn't really that balanced, but UT2004 was pretty much hitscan galore. Shock Rifle, Lightning Gun and Minigun were the 3 most used weapons in duels. In UT99, we would see plenty of projectile weapon combat.

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5 hours ago, seed said:

Why have dedicated servers almost disappeared, and got traded for online-only functionality and developers/publishers hosting them? That is one way to ensure the game dies for good if its developers disappear, and that it will inevitably be shut down at one point, because no-one keeps them running forever, especially once interest eventually vanishes.

 

Well, a bunch of not-all-bad reasons originally.

Setting up a personal dedicated server requires at least a tiny bit of network understanding and such, and while there was UPNP to try to make it more transparent it was always a coin toss if it'd work or not. So it seemed "easier and more reliable" to host.

It was especially big deal for console gamers who tended to have much more of a "plug and play, just works" expectation back then - today, let's be honest, it's not that different for most PC gamers either.

Some games publishers argued the anti-cheat factor too, in some cases it even had some truth to it.

 

Later on when stuff like permanent player profiles, paid-for and grinded-for unlocks, microtransactions, and the whole nine yards gradually happened, it became even more critical to keep the MP centralized - because private servers would cut into profits.

And mind that many of the publishers are of the mentality of "when we shut down the old game, large part of the playerbase will choose to buy the sequel, more profit". See the mess with Nintendo vs Smash community right now (and how they just hurt Splatoon community for supporting the Smash protests).

 

On 12/4/2020 at 10:06 PM, Dark Pulse said:

And fuck Chizra. That map always made me lost.

 

As a huge fan of Unreal (and UT'99) - preach.

I bet there was a lot of players who stopped playing around there, so early in the game. Sad as hell.

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@Dark Pulse Yeah 2003 had some problems (and without the patch, often crawled). I'm just saying I did have fun with it (unlike 2007 that  burns me up thinking about it lol), but OHMYGOSH YEAH I HATE THAT LIGHTNING GUN. I was also not a fan of how 2004 nerfed the best shield. Assault was my favorite in UT99, so 2003 removing it did make me sad, but 2004 bringing it back was nice. And I do agree, the music is far superior in UT99. And just sound design in general. The SFX in the original Unreal and UT games were so pleasant to the ears. Games after, SFX were meh. I'm also not a fan of the hollow noise for the pills.

 

Also I must check out that mod for UT99. An Invasion-style match for the best iteration of UT? Sign me up!

 

Only issue I have with UT99 is it seems you can no longer buy the original Game of the Year edition. You do get the GOTY edition but stripped down (this version is found in both the Anthology release and by itself like GOG's copy, I know 'cause I own both). No more Rocket Arena and certain extra weapons (like my favorite, the proxy grenades). Luckily I still have the GOTY disc release with all that stuff, I should reinstall that.

Edited by Kokoro Hane

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10 hours ago, Ajora said:

The first Unreal game I ever played was Unreal Tournament 3. It was crap then and it's probably even worse today. What a load of bollocks that was. 

It's way better than shooters of today.

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Out of all the large and confusing maps in Unreal, Chizra is probably the only one I haven't come to like given time. The sunspire is huge and easy to get lost in, but eventually the real path becomes clear and I can do the level pretty good now, but Chizra is just annoying no matter how many times I've tried it.

 

Ah well, I still love Unreal nonetheless.

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23 minutes ago, Ajora said:

 

No. It really isn't. 

 

Nah it is. One of the few instances where I agree with Strife Commando

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1 minute ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Nah it is. One of the few instances where I agree with Strife Commando

 

My playing Unreal Tournament 3 before any of the other Unreal games turned me off of getting any further into the series for years, and then I checked out UT99 and my world was turned upside down. Unreal Tournament 3 is a hideous-looking, joyless, sterile, and inept slog of an experience. It has none of the pizzazz, imagination, and spark that makes UT99 the timeless classic that it is. 

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There is truth in both statements, but honestly I don't get the hate for UT3, and I played that game. I thought it was a pretty solid game. Good, not great, but not the pile of shit some people consider here as far as I see.

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13 hours ago, Ajora said:

The first Unreal game I ever played was Unreal Tournament 3. It was crap then and it's probably even worse today. What a load of bollocks that was. 

Nah, it's not. It does not compare to UT99 by a longshot, but it should rather be compared to UT2004.

 

In which case, its not as legendary as that game, but its still pretty good, predominantly because a lot of the maps are UT99/UT2004 reworks either way.

 

The artstyle however, is rather Gears of War like, which is to say, quite bland, in most of the levels. There are some joyous ones in there though.

 

As X360 owner of this game, its one of my fave shooters on the platform because it manages to achieve a perceptual fascimile of UT2004 and UT99, but on consoles. Its slower paced there, but the gameplay is adjusted for it.

 

UT's gameplay is timeless, no matter if you play UT99 or UT3.

 

54 minutes ago, seed said:

There is truth in both statements, but honestly I don't get the hate for UT3, and I played that game. I thought it was a pretty solid game. Good, not great, but not the pile of shit some people consider here as far as I see.

Pretty much. On console's there is simply no contest really. And a pretty good clone of UT-style gameplay is still a pretty good game in general.

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11 hours ago, seed said:

Why have dedicated servers almost disappeared, and got traded for online-only functionality and developers/publishers hosting them? That is one way to ensure the game dies for good if its developers disappear, and that it will inevitably be shut down at one point, because no-one keeps them running forever, especially once interest eventually vanishes. 

 

Dedicated servers have some serious issues.

 

1. They're good for big servers with ongoing game modes where people can join and leave on a whim.  They are suboptimal for game modes with small playercounts, especially team games, and those are very much in vogue right now.

2. Because server owners want a full server, most of them tend to run only the most popular maps and modes.  Sometimes I just want to play all of the content that the developers created, not just 24/7 dust2 and facing worlds.  When TF2 got valve-server matchmaking, I actually had a blast coming back to the game and actually being able to play the full gamut of available maps for a change.

3. After a few years, popular mods and custom game modes tended to completely take over from the vanilla content, leaving people who want to play the vanilla content out in the cold.  At that point, the game might as well have been dead for me, despite people technically still playing the game.

4. Players have very limited control of dedicated servers.  Most games with matchmaking have some sort of custom game functionality where I can invite my friends to play with me, and as player "in charge" I get to decide what we play.  Dedicated servers _might_ give you limited control with callvoting, but that's about it.

5. Although there were occasionally servers with great communities, most of them either had absentee administrators at best or were incredibly exploitative at worst, charging real life money for server perks or even administrative access.

 

Granted, when the community is tiny, dedicated servers are the best you can hope for, because nobody is going to languish in a queue for an hour waiting for another player.  But at scale, I think they got rightfully relegated to the history books along with arena shooters themselves.

 

EDIT: Almost forgot a big one:


6. Dedicated servers are not "on demand" for the people who run them.  In my experience, when you run lots of servers, 99% of them stay empty most of the time, and that's server time someone is paying for that is essentially being wasted.  TSPG had the right idea, but for all the positives of on-demand hosting it's still being filtered through a traditional server browser, which tells me the problem is with the paradigm itself.

Edited by AlexMax

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@AlexMax The issue with map popularity varies, but yeah I can definitely relate to that. I used to be part of the staff of a community a few years ago - mostly CS - and towards our inevitable demise, the classic server we ran was largely playing dust2_2x2, inferno_2x2 etc. But even with developer hosted servers, it's not that much better. Look at CSGO for instance, how many people are playing Dust and Mirage versus say, Cobblestone. Yeah, night and day difference there too. At least, back when I still cared for multiplayer that's how it was.

 

For big games it may make more sense to not have dedicated servers, but it is not a permanent solution, it is temporary at most. Over time, interest and popularity starts fading away, and once they will no longer be profitable, they will suffer an inevitable death, and once that happens, good luck playing the games ever again, because there will be no more servers at all to try. Same for online-only functionality or game-as-service model, which is a scam, plain and simple.

 

27 minutes ago, AlexMax said:

5. Although there were occasionally servers with great communities, most of them either had absentee administrators at best or were incredibly exploitative at worst, charging real life money for server perks or even administrative access.

 

Granted, when the community is tiny, dedicated servers are the best you can hope for, because nobody is going to languish in a queue for an hour waiting for another player.  But at scale, I think they got rightfully relegated to the history books along with arena shooters themselves.

 

I want to cover this, because this is unclear.

 

Case on point, we also charged money for administrative privileges, both on the forum and the servers. Sure they could be obtained free-of-charge by volunteers and people who met the requirements to apply for such privileges, but payment was also a possibility, and for smaller communities it was of great help since that money could go in all sorts of things to improve the community and the servers, such as boosting.

 

The truth is that running a community requires a lot of time and often funds, and depending on possibilities, such options will inevitably have to be set up. Been there done that. So I'm hoping that your critique is aimed exclusively at communities where this ended up into exactly what you just said: exploiting people. Otherwise this is an extremely narrow perspective on things, and I have first-hand experience here.

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9 hours ago, Tetzlaff said:

I think the true reason is because UT99 get's an extra nostalgia bonus from players. UT2004 was really successful, I think it's on par with UT99.

 

I have to install Unreal again, there were some excellent custom epsiodes released for it (for the Unreal version that was accessible through UT99).

 

@ReaperAA: I remember UT99's weapons as extremely spam friendly, didn't the rocket launcher allow to shoot 6 rockets/grenades at once? UT2004 was more balanced really.

It did, but of course, that was counterbalanced by the fact that loading all six of them took about 5-6 seconds though. Also that once you began loading them, you were locked in until you fired - no switching weapons, or even fire modes.

 

Good players, of course, know about the "third" and "fourth" fire modes, too. Let's see if you know what I'm talking about!

 

9 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

Well UT99 wasn't really that balanced, but UT2004 was pretty much hitscan galore. Shock Rifle, Lightning Gun and Minigun were the 3 most used weapons in duels. In UT99, we would see plenty of projectile weapon combat.

Yes, and this is half the reason I didn't have as much fun with 2kx as UT99 (or UT3).

 

Simply put, hitscan dominated. Shock Rifle -> LtG -> Shock Rifle was THE go-to weapon combo. You could kill a freshly-spawned player dead in about two seconds if your aim was good. 45-70-45 = death in almost all cases.

 

5 hours ago, Kokoro Hane said:

@Dark Pulse Yeah 2003 had some problems (and without the patch, often crawled). I'm just saying I did have fun with it (unlike 2007 that  burns me up thinking about it lol), but OHMYGOSH YEAH I HATE THAT LIGHTNING GUN. I was also not a fan of how 2004 nerfed the best shield. Assault was my favorite in UT99, so 2003 removing it did make me sad, but 2004 bringing it back was nice. And I do agree, the music is far superior in UT99. And just sound design in general. The SFX in the original Unreal and UT games were so pleasant to the ears. Games after, SFX were meh. I'm also not a fan of the hollow noise for the pills.

 

Also I must check out that mod for UT99. An Invasion-style match for the best iteration of UT? Sign me up!

 

Only issue I have with UT99 is it seems you can no longer buy the original Game of the Year edition. You do get the GOTY edition but stripped down (this version is found in both the Anthology release and by itself like GOG's copy, I know 'cause I own both). No more Rocket Arena and certain extra weapons (like my favorite, the proxy grenades). Luckily I still have the GOTY disc release with all that stuff, I should reinstall that.

Strange, I loved UT3 precisely because it actually got back a lot more towards GOTY. Movement wasn't as floaty, you couldn't just pull out the Shield Gun and run away (one of the songs we'd sing on the server I frequented was "Shields up, run away, play the game the pro way!"), weapons like rockets and flak were actually useful again.

 

Not sure if you can find that mod online anymore - should be something like "oWo TallyHo!" If you can't find it, though, I know I still got the files, just holler.

 

And yeah, it is a bit strange they didn't include that, but I guess in fairness the versions of the mods would be outdated compared to online. Though some of those mods might be hard to find online now.

 

It's also lacking the S3TC textures, but to be fair, some of those were bugged (and it wasn't complete, either). Nowadays there's almost certainly better ways to do custom textures, though.

 

12 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

Unreal Tournament 3 was released on PC first, so the whole it was made for consoles statement is wrong. By the way, why is it called Unreal Tournament 3 and not 2007?

It originally was. IIRC they wanted to dump the eSports theme that 2003-2004 had, plus putting a year on it tends to make people believe it will have yearly releases, which, well, it didn't.

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6 minutes ago, Wadmodder RiderPùdu said:

Unreal II was just a mediocre sequel that many gamers just ignored finishing it and went back playing Unreal Tournament 99 or 2003, or the original Unreal instead.

 

Yes Unreal 2 was a disaster. The movement wasssss....soooo....godddammmnnn....sllloooooooooowwwww....

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Unreal is a pretty decent FPS game for its time and has some pretty spooky atmospheric moments throughout, but I honestly think it just fell by the wasteside. Not saying it's bad but it's not exactly aged well over the years.

 

UT(1999)'s AI is surprisingly intelligent for a late 90's FPS and to this day can occasionally pull a sneaky move or two (though people who are familiar with arena shooters can probably mop the floor with them).

 

Personally the unreal series really took off in terms of quality when UT2K4 released. To this day I still occasionally go back and play this gem. For being a mid 2000's arena shooter UT2K4 has some really gorgeous levels and some really funky and cool music (Tokara forest being my favourite stage).

 

 

The less I mention U2, the better... There's a reason it's universally panned.

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2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

It did, but of course, that was counterbalanced by the fact that loading all six of them took about 5-6 seconds though. Also that once you began loading them, you were locked in until you fired - no switching weapons, or even fire modes.

 

Good players, of course, know about the "third" and "fourth" fire modes, too. Let's see if you know what I'm talking about!

 

Yes, and this is half the reason I didn't have as much fun with 2kx as UT99 (or UT3).

 

Simply put, hitscan dominated. Shock Rifle -> LtG -> Shock Rifle was THE go-to weapon combo. You could kill a freshly-spawned player dead in about two seconds if your aim was good. 45-70-45 = death in almost all cases.

 

Strange, I loved UT3 precisely because it actually got back a lot more towards GOTY. Movement wasn't as floaty, you couldn't just pull out the Shield Gun and run away (one of the songs we'd sing on the server I frequented was "Shields up, run away, play the game the pro way!"), weapons like rockets and flak were actually useful again.

 

Not sure if you can find that mod online anymore - should be something like "oWo TallyHo!" If you can't find it, though, I know I still got the files, just holler.

 

And yeah, it is a bit strange they didn't include that, but I guess in fairness the versions of the mods would be outdated compared to online. Though some of those mods might be hard to find online now.

 

It's also lacking the S3TC textures, but to be fair, some of those were bugged (and it wasn't complete, either). Nowadays there's almost certainly better ways to do custom textures, though.

 

It originally was. IIRC they wanted to dump the eSports theme that 2003-2004 had, plus putting a year on it tends to make people believe it will have yearly releases, which, well, it didn't.

So if 99 is Unreal Tournament 1, and UT3 is...well UT3, which is UT2?

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