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Scientist

Christmas = LIES!

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The Atheism-anarchy-thingy
Yep, I was being sarcastic; atheism is no bad thing.

Insomniac said:

Notice how jesus, most of the people in picture bibles, and the nativity scene are white

Indeed people want their god/messiah to look like them. It's not just the white people that do this; look at pictures of gods from India or Asia. These all share features with those that worship them.

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scorpion, the answer to your question (like all answers ;-]) is in the Bible:

Luke 2 6-7
"While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because their was no room for them in the inn."

So the manger (crib) seems to be correct.
manger = an open box from which cattle and horses feed.
But it's not mentioned that the manger is in a stable, or that there's a donkey or ox (or elephant) present.

So basicly all you need to buy is:
-a crib with baby jesus
-Mary
-Joseph
and
-the shepherds (without sheep)
And your collection will be complete. If you bought anything else, you were ripped off.

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Scientist said:
Indeed people want their god/messiah to look like them. It's not just the white people that do this; look at pictures of gods from India or Asia. These all share features with those that worship them.

While we're on that subject, I might point out that the statues of Mary have her dressed in clothing from medieval times and not from biblical times at all, so I find it interesting when people who say they’ve seen Mary in visions always say she dressed the same kind of robes from the statues. let alone the fact that nobody even knows what she looks like.

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When you're done ripping and dissecting Christmas, why don't you do New Year's Day or something next?

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You know what the real meaning of christmas is now: $$$$$
Take a look at christmas advertising, it's just more of the same of normal advertising, add in a touch of sentimentallity about christmas and how good it is to give, then increase the prices on "christmas essentials" Ok, I'm a little cynical, but I just don't think christmas is "christmas" anymore. Having said that, I still like receiving stuff, and giving stuff to a degree, but it's just not all it's cracked up to be IMO.

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Three Kings = two lies

I've been searching for more false claims and found: The Three Kings.
In the bible they're called Magi.

Matthew 2 1:
"After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of king Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

So they are wise men being called Magi. Magi not kings.

Magus meaning:
-Zoroastrian priestly caste of the Medes and Persians.
or
-a sorcerer; a magician

Further there is no mention of the number three. The bible simply uses the term Magi, so all we know is that there was more than one Magus. There could have been two or twenty for all we know.

And yet the Magi are always depicted as three kings.
They could just as easily have been 200 rich astrologers.

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I read a book a while ago. The Science of discworld, with Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart, took a story from Terry Pratchett, and compared it the world and events in the story to our world and it's history.
Anyway, they use a term quite frequently, that I find quite interesting. "lies to children" Ie: when something is too complex to explain, it's simplefied, to make it simple for someone to understand, like a child for example. Common knowledge is that the three kings story. It seems reasonable and seems to fit with common knowledge of the story, until you do some research, and it raises more questions than answers.

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Speaking of the Devil..... and he comes.
I had a visit from a bunch of Jehova's Witnesses today, who tried to recruit me, babbling about how "God would grant me Eternal Life (after Death) if I believed in him".

/Me looks at topic heading

Hmm, that was a bit off-topic...

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Scientist said:

Indeed people want their god/messiah to look like them. It's not just the white people that do this; look at pictures of gods from India or Asia. These all share features with those that worship them.


Which is not even remotely surprising since this god thingy is pretty much a projection of human characteristics onto the "universe." If you look at it clearly, humanism (which kind of started modernism) is just a little step down from there. Then we did take another step but that's another story...

IMJack, the reason Christ's birthday is celebrated at the Solstice is because in the previous cultures (or the ones before the previous ones) it was done to make offerings to appease the Dark and Mighty Winds of Winter so they wouldn't bring misery and damnation (or destruction) to us lowly mortals. And yeah, the role of the Winds was taken by Gods, Priests and Kings, and then by the State and the Market, but (or thus) it's still pretty much the same.

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dsm said:

Speaking of the Devil..... and he comes.
I had a visit from a bunch of Jehova's Witnesses today, who tried to recruit me, babbling about how "God would grant me Eternal Life (after Death) if I believed in him".

/Me looks at topic heading

Hmm, that was a bit off-topic...

Heh. A few weeks ago, a couple Mormon missionaries came looking for my roommate. It's kinda awkward telling people you're from Utah, because everyone assumes you're a Momo (and I'm not).

Anyway, back on topic.

IMJack, the reason Christ's birthday is celebrated at the Solstice is because in the previous cultures (or the ones before the previous ones) it was done to make offerings to appease the Dark and Mighty Winds of Winter so they wouldn't bring misery and damnation (or destruction) to us lowly mortals. And yeah, the role of the Winds was taken by Gods, Priests and Kings, and then by the State and the Market, but (or thus) it's still pretty much the same.

Yeah, that's what I said. The period around the solstice sucks so bad that people need a ceremony or something to give them hope. Whether it's a feast celebrating the new year or some kind of worship in hopes of bringing about a new year. Modern December holidays evolved from that. It's become tradition.

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Over here we celebrate this when it's summer. I guess that helps make the classic sombre/cheerful and cold/passionate contrasts between the charactersistics of people from the north and from the south.

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Scientist said:

Three Kings = two lies

I've been searching for more false claims and found: The Three Kings.
In the bible they're called Magi.

Matthew 2 1:
"After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of king Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

So they are wise men being called Magi. Magi not kings.

Magus meaning:
-Zoroastrian priestly caste of the Medes and Persians.
or
-a sorcerer; a magician

Further there is no mention of the number three. The bible simply uses the term Magi, so all we know is that there was more than one Magus. There could have been two or twenty for all we know.

And yet the Magi are always depicted as three kings.
They could just as easily have been 200 rich astrologers.


the book of luke makes no mention of them, but says that after the shepherds visit the child was taken into the mountains to be circumsised and purified.

according to matthew, the wise men were called by herod privately and asked them to search for the christ child and bring back word of his location. this was after jesus was born. there is speculation that jesus was actually anywhere between 2 and 5 years old when the magi found them.

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I've only kind of skimmed through this thread, so I might be mistaken. But... It seem like a lot of you guys are saying Christianity isn't true because people (Christians/non Christians) miss quote what they are reading in the bible.
If you don't understand what I'm getting at, then climb back up your tree, eat a banana and be happy. Mhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaa!

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heh. Christmas has nothing to do with christianity. 'Christmas' is the time of year when the light returns. It's not even called 'christmas' in scandinavia. In DK we call it 'Jul', which comes very close to 'hjul', which means wheel. The wheel of time.

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In DK we call it 'Jul', which comes very close to 'hjul', which means wheel. The wheel of time.

The word 'jul' (also found in ancient English as 'geohul' around the 6th or 7th centuries), derived from an unknown Gothic or ancient German word, possibly 'jehwla' The actual meaning of this word isn't known, except it was used in reference to the midwinter time. Jul was originally a heathen celebration in Scandinavia, long before the Christians came, so 'Christmas' here doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity. Instead of getting rid of the existing commons, which would have been impossible, the missionaries modified them to Christian alterations.

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Y2theJ: I don't think the comments about religion in this thread should be taken very seriously at all.

Anyway, it's nice to see a discussion about Danish etymology. More, please! So, where did "hjul" come from?

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'Hjul' comes from the ancient German word 'hwehwula' (which also is the source for the word 'wheel' in English).

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Actually all the scandinavian languages are considered part of the germanic language group (I think English is too).

Besides in old english and american christmas songs the holiday is sometimes referred to as "Yule".

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Grazza, can comments about religion be taken very seriously at all?

Little Faith, yeah, and christianity is very Roman as it became the state religion of the Roman Empire before they got old (both the empire and the religion.) I guess they found christianity to be an excellent tool for unification.

Fredrik, cool, probably having something to do with the cycle of seasons...

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myk said:

Grazza, can comments about religion be taken very seriously at all?

Probably not, but I doubt that many of these comments were even intended to be very serious.

myk said:

Fredrik, cool, probably having something to do with the cycle of seasons...

I thought the conclusion was that the modern Danish words hjul and jul were derived from different ancient German words.

Yes, I recall that English, German and the Scandinavian languages are regarded as part of the same family. My impression is that Danish is about as closely related to English as it is to German.

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Happy Hogswatch! We must spill red blood on the white snow so that the sun will come up tomorrow! (If we don't, we'll just have a big ball of flaming gas making light.)

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