[POST DELETED]

[Major Arlene]

7 hours ago, AtticTelephone said:

Brutal Doom just isn't good, that's the problem, I think. Honestly, I think you should try Project Brutality instead, it's much, much better to run.

I really hope you're joking.

[seed]

5 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

You seem to have been describing a very early version. Later versions starting with v20 allows you to choose how much blood you want. Base mod without fiddling with options has not that much blood anymore.

 

True, last time I played BD was way back in 2015 I think, when I returned to classic Doom, no doubt various things have changed since, but this holds true for old versions indeed.

[Redneckerz]

I feel this topic has been overly discussed. As much as Project Brutality and Brutal Doom are highly popular, i wish different mods got the same discussion.

 

Having said that:
 

5 hours ago, Fireseth said:

Well isn't the entire point of a source port to utilize and implement modern hardware to run doom efficiently and in different ways?

The entire point of a source port is:

• Expand features upon the original feature set
• Introduce new features that aren't capable with the original feature set (Extended limits, OpenGL rendering, and so forth)

Some things are however inherent to the Doom engine as it is concieved. This can be readily observed with some of the Cacoward winners that require GZDoom but are also extremely detailed. GZDoom only gets you so far. If a map has extreme detail, any source port will buckle.

 

The difference in source ports in that situation is which source port buckles to an acceptable degree. As in, you still get playable framerates even if the overhead is significant.

 

To fix up issues that are inherent to the Doom engine itself would require a rewrite of how the rendering works. Gooberman's Rum & Raisin Doom does a brilliant job rewriting code to be multithreaded, but for a completely modernized take that takes advantage of everything a modern PC has, you are basically looking at a different engine, that isn't Doom's.

 

Some limits are here to stay forever, or it wouldn't be Doom.

[Gez]

The thing that turned me off Brutal Doom quickly was its soundscape, the constant screaming of the low-tier enemies was just painful. That was v13 IIRC. I'm not really into gameplay mods to begin with, but it had received a Cacoward so I had to give it a try.

[HLRaven]

Kinda surprised how I never saw anyone talk (atleast I think so) about how terrible the blood looks in the latest version, it just feels like he didn't take into account the artstyle of doom and just added a pixelated effect on blood

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

21 minutes ago, Gez said:

The thing that turned me off Brutal Doom quickly was its soundscape, the constant screaming of the low-tier enemies was just painful. That was v13 IIRC. I'm not really into gameplay mods to begin with, but it had received a Cacoward so I had to give it a try.

v22 will have CVARs to disable them. When I release the first beta I will make a thread here and I would like to see people voicing their concerns about things they don't like and want to be given an option to disable.
 

 

18 minutes ago, HLRaven said:

Kinda surprised how I never saw anyone talk (atleast I think so) about how terrible the blood looks in the latest version, it just feels like he didn't take into account the artstyle of doom and just added a pixelated effect on blood

The blood in Doom is pixelated. Previous versions used alpha pixels which trully doesn't fits Doom. You are literally the first person I see saying this.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Sergeant_Mark_IV

[HLRaven]

I don't know just that ever since v21 the blood has felt weird for me, like something was off

[D4NUK1]

1 hour ago, HLRaven said:

I don't know just that ever since v21 the blood has felt weird for me, like something was off

Maybe it's because the old blood of v18 or 20 it's feel more like a model as a sprite based.

[inkoalawetrust]

2 hours ago, seed said:

 

Yeah, the over the top violence is just one of the reasons why BD is no longer my cup of tea. I enjoy graphic violence but I prefer it being done tastefully, like the Build games do, and the MK Arcade trilogy.

 

An Imp bleeding 5 gallons after one shot or getting utterly mutilated/disfigured by bullets? I don't really find much fun in that anymore... There are indeed better violence mods out there, and BD loses its novelty factor way too fast.

As Mark himself has already said (And I did as well in the reply you are responding to, since Bolognese is basically a standalone version of BD's blood and gore.), you can change how much blood enemies produce when shoot/cut/killed/whatever in the mods' settings, so if you don't like the amount of blood you can tone it down or even straight up turn it off by lowering the max amount of blood and gore to 0.

[Bauul]

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Gooberman's Rum & Raisin Doom does a brilliant job rewriting code to be multithreaded, but for a completely modernized take that takes advantage of everything a modern PC has, you are basically looking at a different engine, that isn't Doom's.

 

Very true. For anyone wondering what this is, I strongly recommend reading through the Doomworld thread on Rum and Raisin and the associated Git wiki.

 

Essentially Gooberman has gone back to the very core of the rendering engine and has rewritten it to account for modern PC setups. Of particular note for this thread is his multithreading work: the trick is to split the screen into multiple "miniscreens" and have each core render one miniscreen, and then combine them together.

 

It's a fascinating concept that I'm hopeful will see implementations on in modern source ports.

[The BMFG]

brutal doom runs alot better than project brutality for me 

[The BMFG]

5 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Project Brutality still uses BDv19 code as it's base. You may have notice it to be better because PB uses preload caching to save sounds into the memory and prevent some stuttering. Brutal Doom does not do this because of its intended Zandronum compatibility. But everything on BD is better programed than Project Brutality. 10 minutes into the game after you fired every gun and played every possible sound, the stuttering ceases completely.

Pa1n decided it was a good idea to steal resources from BD's closed beta when I was helping him and I was just about to port v20's systems to PB.
Now he is unable to port the improvements himself because he is a bigger hack than I am (last time I checked it, it even had 2018 v21 beta bugs from stolen code that he couldn't fix yet, such as the dead bodies spawning flies when shot).

Load BDv21 with Okuplok. Then try Project Brutality with it. Then come back here and say this again. :)

personally i use brutal doom because it runs better personally to me project brutality is like the hideous destructer of brutal mods it can be a bit complicated at times i like brutal doom also because its much simpler looks better (map enhancement system) runs better and im a gore hound

[[McD] James]

I've never had any issues with running Brutal Doom on the toaster I used to own. 

[Kachakeño]

28 minutes ago, Ajora said:

I've never had any issues with running Brutal Doom on the toaster I used to own. 

I guess they complain about that because they play it at higher resolutions. I don't even have any problem with (almost) any gameplay and map mods while I'm playing at 800x600. Their PC's even have better specs than mine and I can't believe they have those "problems". 

[HLRaven]

For some reason Project Brutality is more smoother than brutal doom in my case

[Marisa the Magician]

To be honest, my issues with both BD and PB are mostly due to personal taste, but I do have some that are more based on objective fact, such as the code being messy and convoluted because you're targeting Zandronum compatibility (and losing features such as anonymous functions and user variables, which can make for relatively much cleaner code), or the fact that PB just outright has a severe case of creeping featuritis™ and an obscene amount of individual components, sprites, sounds, etc. (As I very loudly tweeted a while back, it contains a whopping TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND lines of DECORATE). I am not surprised in the slightest that it freezes everything when loading a slaughtermap, it probably doubles or even triples the total thinker count, which is definitely going to be a huge issue.

 

I'll also add that the sound mixing is painful, and with the addition of other effects it makes for a rather overwhelming, stressful experience I can only describe as "sheer sensory overload". Others may be able to handle it, but it's definitely not for me.

 

Anyway, my opinions on those mods aside, GZDoom is a heavy duty engine that tries to offer as much flexibility as possible for custom content creation. Having to account for so many moving parts adds more and more overhead. One of the reasons why graf is infamous for saying [No] to so many feature requests arises from having to make sacrifices to not turn the whole thing into a colossus of kitchen sinks.

 

However one thing that could be made to help with massive maps is maybe to try and reduce how much map data has to be re-sent to the GPU. Considering this was suggested a long time ago and it's still not there, it's probably harder to implement than I think.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

42 minutes ago, HLRaven said:

For some reason Project Brutality is more smoother than brutal doom in my case

Read what I said about precaching resources.

I am going to try to address it on my own hacky ways on v22.

[Marisa the Magician]

I'd suggest doing it like Total Chaos, where it has a script on map load that pre-spawns a bunch of stuff and then deletes it.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

 

7 minutes ago, Marisa Kirisame said:

 

I'll also add that the sound mixing is painful, and with the addition of other effects it makes for a rather overwhelming, stressful experience I can only describe as "sheer sensory overload". Others may be able to handle it, but it's definitely not for me.

I see what you mean. By the time I was working on BD's sounds I only had a set of generic shitty sound speakers. Nowadays I have home theater-like subwoofer and a Razer headset and I can clearly hear that these sounds are shit (I noticed the SSG sounds can actually make your ears ring and give you some shellshock if you are using a good headset). V22 will have a total reform on the sound department.
 

 

4 minutes ago, Marisa Kirisame said:

I'd suggest doing it like Total Chaos, where it has a script on map load that pre-spawns a bunch of stuff and then deletes it.

That's the idea. It's what I am currently doing for Brutal Fate. The TITLEMAP is a big texture with the box art and behind it all sorts of fuckery are happening in the background that warms up the memory. Swapping all skies, textures, actors, sound effects being played all at once, etc.
The game freezes for about 2 seconds after it's loaded, but there are zero in-game stutters.
I will do something like that for BDv22.

[The BMFG]

1 hour ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Read what I said about precaching resources.

I am going to try to address it on my own hacky ways on v22.

all the save files im gonna have to delete from my gzdoom when v22 comes out dear god

[Cinnamon]

22 hours ago, AtticTelephone said:

Brutal Doom just isn't good, that's the problem, I think. Honestly, I think you should try Project Brutality instead, it's much, much better to run.

 

TIL those two are different things. I use neither, so I guess that's why I'm a bit out of the loop regarding them.

[AtticTelephone]

Just now, Cinnamon Killjoy said:

 

TIL those two are different things. I use neither, so I guess that's why I'm a bit out of the loop regarding them.

Honestly, I don't even play either, I only played Project Brutality a few times just for fun, and I prefer vanilla or Boom wads all the time.

[Cinnamon]

Just now, AtticTelephone said:

Honestly, I don't even play either, I only played Project Brutality a few times just for fun, and I prefer vanilla or Boom wads all the time.

 

Yeah I like to stay close to vanilla. I think the only things that are altered are a few graphical effects that GZDoom has (I, however, rarely notice such things) and SmoothDoom.

I've only every used PrBoom+ and GZDoom now that I think about it.

[ChopBlock223]

15 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

I see what you mean. By the time I was working on BD's sounds I only had a set of generic shitty sound speakers. Nowadays I have home theater-like subwoofer and a Razer headset and I can clearly hear that these sounds are shit (I noticed the SSG sounds can actually make your ears ring and give you some shellshock if you are using a good headset). V22 will have a total reform on the sound department.

I'm glad that you're admitting and addressing that, because I honestly always really hated the audio in BD.

[nayoz]

On 12/19/2020 at 7:59 AM, AtticTelephone said:

Brutal Doom just isn't good, that's the problem, I think. Honestly, I think you should try Project Brutality instead, it's much, much better to run.

i solved the problem by modding the changes i wanted into the game, thanks to gzdoom accessibility.

it took me about 9 months O_o, but i can say i am about 99% satisfied of what i have now :P

[Marisa the Magician]

Alright, so I decided why not and went and did the okuplok check. PB took a whole long-ass time to load in, pulling a single frame per second. BD seemed a bit better at around 30 fps.

 

Then just to boast I rolled in my own mod (which I'm proud of having optimized the hell out of, and I optimized things even further after posting this), and with all the slaughterwad compat options in order, there's a solid 45 fps (without them, fps start at 10 and then gradually drop down below one, as the heavy lifting of per-tic combat tracking for 23243 shootable actors takes its toll). I should also mention that the entire map is playable from start to finish, and I've actually recorded footage of this.

 

As a control, with no mods loaded I get 50 fps.

 

One thing that bothers me is just how MUCH the mods seem to be doing, judging by the sheer number of VM calls from countless thinkers:

There is something VERY WRONG with those numbers for PB. Not to mention the humongous number of thinkers, which almost quadruples that of unmodded gzdoom.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Marisa Kirisame : Remark

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

3 hours ago, Marisa Kirisame said:

and with all the slaughterwad compat options in order

Oh fuck, you just gave me a brilliant idea.
I can literally just count the amount of monsters at the beggining of the level with an acs script, and make things like projectiles act differently and consume less resources if the script detects the map is a "slaughter".