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Doomkid

Most overdone/played-out Doom arguments?

Most overdone/played-out Doom arguments?  

273 members have voted

  1. 1. Which arguments are you the MOST tired of?

    • Arguments about Brutal Doom
      128
    • Arguments about slaughtermaps
      86
    • Arguments about which source port is the best
      87
    • Arguments about GZDoom / Graf in general
      77
    • Arguments about whether or not Doom is 3D
      115
    • Arguments about which stock maps are best/worst
      85
    • Arguments not related to Doom shitting up Doom sites/boards
      49
    • Arguments about what is or isn't "truly Doomy" (mostly pertaining to custom maps/wads)
      99
    • Arguments about difficulty settings in general / Ultra-Violence being "true Doom"
      101
    • Arguments about whether or not “Doom is Dying!!”
      94


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At the risk of violating my self-imposed rule of posting a maximum of three answers per topic, unless it is a project in which I am really interested...

 

On 12/22/2020 at 6:43 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

"Me and 10,000 other people like this thing over the other thing, therefore other thing is less good." is an argument from authority

 

I think you have mixed up the argument from authority with the argument from popularity. As for the rest of your answer, blind leading the blind, I guess.

 

Speaking about logical fallacies, this scarcely documented one is another very used on online discussions. This special pleading, as it seems it shares its name with a different fallacy. This is about statements in the style of: “You will never understand [x] because only very few people like me have the perspective to do so”.

 

https://www2.palomar.edu/users/bthompson/Special Pleading.html

 

On 12/23/2020 at 10:55 PM, scalliano said:

the community started making maps better than id.

 

Does anyone else remember that bloke? That one really obsessed with the “pros” as far as mapping goes. If I remember correctly, he used to state fundamentally that all user-made maps of Doom are worthless, save for these few ones created by people such as John Romero, Jean-Paul LeBreton, Russell Meakim...

 

=====

 

Ok, said once, if at all...

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2 hours ago, Diabolución said:

I think you have mixed up the argument from authority with the argument from popularity. As for the rest of your answer, blind leading the blind, I guess.

I can comfortably invoke the "mainstream" as an authority if mass-appeal is used as an argumentative basis for the quality of something. So, your point here is moot at best.

 

2 hours ago, Diabolución said:

This special pleading, as it seems it shares its name with a different fallacy. This is about statements in the style of: “You will never understand [x] because only very few people like me have the perspective to do so”.

My argument is not a special pleading, as it isn't making assumptions about the supposed reader's qualifications, credentials, experiences, moral values, or lack thereof... It's simply about personal preference... There is no fallacy you are able to shake a stick at, because the fact that people have different tastes - some of which can be "niche" - isn't something anybody would scrutinize - it's a given... I also didn't inflate that "niche thing" to something "better" by way of arguing that only "a chosen few" are "able" to appreciate it - as if the quality of something were inversely proportional to the quantity of people who enjoy it...

 

If anything, your fallacy here seems to be that something only relatively few people are interested in can only be "defended" by way of logical fallacies...

 

I'd also like to add that the post you took just that one tiny little snippet from (I wonder why that is), didn't aim to "disallow" anybody's opinions on anything. You can have your opinions and your personal preferences all day long for all I care. However, the moment said opinions and preferences are being passed off as an objective metric for how something should be done (or even worse: what should be created or not), you're greatly overplaying the value of your subjective metrics, even if a relatively large number people might agree with you...

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4 hours ago, Diabolución said:

[...]
 

Speaking about logical fallacies, this scarcely documented one is another very used on online discussions. This special pleading, as it seems it shares its name with a different fallacy. This is about statements in the style of: “You will never understand [x] because only very few people like me have the perspective to do so”.

 

https://www2.palomar.edu/users/bthompson/Special Pleading.html

 

[...]


I'm not versed in rhetoric or anything similar, but I think I get what you refer to with special pleading. In that case I'm fairly certain that to read @Nine Inch Heels ' point in regards to "10,000 people like..." or however it was worded, as that, is incorrect. It was merely referring to the fact that the mainstream is one thing, and for most people most of the time, it will be a good indicator of what a random bloke such as me also will like - but that it doesn't mean that things that the mainstream aren't drawn to are therefore "logically" defunct in terms of quality.

I experienced a good parallel to this yesterday - I watched a movie I remembered I enjoyed 15 years ago in my teens, and still found it solid. On IMDB it's listed as a 5.0. RottenTomatoes has it in the dumpster. Already here I could regard myself to be on a high horse or whatever, but I don't. Maybe I just see things differently from the masses in this specific instance. It varies incredibly from individual to individual; when it comes to music, I'm largely mainstream within my genre and I get fucking nauseous when people are faffing on about why I should like "advanced" stuff or whatever or it indicates that my brain is lagging.

I also happen to like DOOM 2's MAP13 - Downtown.* Shoot me.

So rather than call it "special pleading," I'd just call it "pointing out individual tastes" or something...

*Just get rid of the arrow.

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On 12/25/2020 at 8:46 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

[...]

 

After giving myself some thinking time before replying, here goes my sophisticated answer:

 

Ok, if you say so, then you say so...

 

I do not like your style of argumentation when treating certain topics, it is unnecessarily aggressive and antagonising, for my taste. And I did not expect that overreaction, sincerely. But well, I learnt the lesson, I guess.

 

@Doomkid: I apologise for the slight derail, I should have known better. That will not happen again, I promise.

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Thanks!

 

What is funny is that in the second paragraph, about the special pleadings, I was actually speaking about forums, Twitter, Facebook, you name it... in general, not directed towards her (or anyone else) particularly. Also, it seems that she did not get I was actually agreeing with her, hence my comment about blind leading the blind as summary of her initial post.

 

Sorry for any grammar error and whatnot, however many times I read it before publishing it. It’s 05:18...

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Diabolución said:

What is funny is that in the second paragraph, about the special pleadings, I was actually speaking about forums, Twitter, Facebook, you name it... in general, not directed towards her (or anyone else) particularly. Also, it seems that she did not get I was actually agreeing with her, hence my comment about blind leading the blind as summary of her initial post.

Not a fan of discussing things that could get sorted out via PM in threads, but since this seems to be way this is supposed to be going, let's clarify a few things...

 

If you make a nitpicky comment about what's an argument from authority or popularity (not to mention that both arguments are similar in nature pretty often), and immediately follow it up with "the blind leading the blind", you set a tone that makes it very easy to assume the follow up is directed at me as well...

 

The reaction I gave you, which was a very direct albeit not a particularly hostile one as far as I'm concerned, was a pretty clear signal that the way I read your comment did not go down very well. At that point, I would have liked it better if you actually reached out to me directly, instead of publicly framing the exchange we've had in a way that makes it seem like I was the aggressor, because to me it seemed to be pretty much the other way around...

I was scratching my head at the sight of being lumped in "with the blind" in your post there, and then seeing you complain about a response that I felt was adequately tempered - assuming my interpretation was correct...

 

Look, if all this is in the end is a misunderstanding, that's A-okay... I'm not one to hold grudges because communication in text only can be problematic... If you wanna talk more about this, by all means, I'm cool with that... If not, and I explained why I reacted the way I did thorough enough, let's just move on and do better next time. I'm sorry that I got this backwards in any case...

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Poll is missing "Doom 16/Eternal/Unity port sucks and Bethesda literally destroyed the Doom franchise!".

 

Otherwise, the worst are definitely any of the gatekeeper discussions about what is "true Doom." Yeah the debate about 3D/best maps/slaughtermaps can get old but it's pretty benign, but gatekeeping just makes us look like assholes.

 

Also, I'm honestly surprised that Brutal Doom threads are the most voted answer here. That's kind of old news IMO, I remember when that was an issue (even more so over at ZDoom forums) but not so much these days, especially with channels like Mr. Icarus giving more diverse ZDoom mods exposure while Decino, Dwars, and Civvie give vanilla gameplay more appreciation.

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7 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

Also, I'm honestly surprised that Brutal Doom threads are the most voted answer here. That's kind of old news IMO, I remember when that was an issue (even more so over at ZDoom forums) but not so much these days, especially with channels like Mr. Icarus giving more diverse ZDoom mods exposure while Decino, Dwars, and Civvie give vanilla gameplay more appreciation.


Well, it's only 7 votes of differences, to Brutal Doom, to What's really it's Doom (And that's sound Gatekeeping).

So, is possible to say they are the most preparated.
.

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I think source port wars bug me the most. There's no need to bicker when we should be thankful Doom has so many viable source ports. Not every 90's FPS is as lucky, I say as I look mournfully in Rise of the Triad's direction.

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3 hours ago, Sotenga said:

I think source port wars bug me the most. There's no need to bicker when we should be thankful Doom has so many viable source ports. Not every 90's FPS is as lucky, I say as I look mournfully in Rise of the Triad's direction.

 

We should never find ourselves in a position where we want to claim that someone else's fun is wrong. Am I right? :)

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On 12/23/2020 at 12:13 PM, Gustavo6046 said:

 

Precisely. It's attractive to get the Russians and their massive tracts of land out of the game at first, but you quickly realize it's usually impractical and pointless.

 

"You're huge! That means you have huge landmasses! Depose the czar!"

 

...err, but anyway.


I mean in the sense of unattainable objective.
It's something so many others have tried before and failed (from Napoleon to Hitler). It's a stupid idea from beginning. But many people still try it.
Everyone advices you against it, but you want to do it anyway. You dismiss those who failed before you as "not motivated enough."

You start with a single sprite of a Cacodemon or an Imp's frontal sprites.  It looks easy at first and you believe you can succeed. (it's the equivalent of Operation Barbarossa).
The first reality shock is when you reach Pinky Demon (that's like Stalingrad). The Hell Knight and Baron of Hell are Kursk and Narva respectively.
When you notice how much work it actually involves, it's already too late, you are already being overwhelmed. The realization of having to do a hundred frames for an Arch-Vile alone hits you like a million soviet conscripts bayonet-charging your futile dreams.

Edited by Sergeant_Mark_IV

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17 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

do better next time.

 

¡De puta madre, niña!

 

My private messaging has been locked out entirely by myself recently. Leaving aside a pair of honourable exceptions (tip: they both host the PDFs of Wadazine), my experience with the private messaging is not good, productive, useful... I think it just generates bad vibes, or amplifies already existing bad vibes.

 

By the way, I am interested more or less exclusively in official / semi-official maps, so there is no way I could feel identified with that initial post of yours, at any rate.

 

Case closed, I would say.

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1 hour ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

You start with a single sprite of a Cacodemon or an Imp's frontal sprites.  It looks easy at first and you believe you can succeed. (it's the equivalent of Operation Barbarossa).
The first reality shock is when you reach Pinky Demon (that's like Stalingrad). The Hell Knight and Baron of Hell are Kursk and Narva respectively.
When you notice how much work it actually involves, it's already too late, you are already being overwhelmed. The realization of having to do a hundred frames for an Arch-Vile alone hits you like a million soviet conscripts bayonet-charging your futile dreams.

If only all the people who tried this would have worked on different enemies every time, rather than doing the Imp in HD over and over and over. We'd be able to Frankenstein together a full HD monster sprite set by now!

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Should we include how some people shit on nuDoom fans? Or just shitting on the newer titles? Because, yes, I agree some of the Eternal fans can be insufferable, but yk what also is getting insufferable? People who purposefully have nothing new to add and just continue to clown on the newer fans like it "funny" the first time but now it's just getting fucking annoying the 100th time, no?

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Definitely agree. I think it's too late to modify the poll by now and get a meaningful result, but I think it's safe to say most anyone who voted for "Arguments about what is or isn't "truly Doomy" wold generally agree. Gatekeeping the franchise is absolutely moronic no matter what direction it's done in.

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if i have to hear someone talking about how "BrUtAl DoOm IsNt ThE WaY ItS MeAnT tO Be PlAyEd!!" [or anyone just commenting on how they dont like brutal doom] im gonna lose it.

why does everyone bad mouth brutal doom to begin with? its a good mod! i dont hear them saying this crap about hdoom!

but even though i like brutal doom, i always find myself returning to classic doom with nashgore [and smoothdoom as well] but im not one [anymore that is] to bring up this stupid topic!

look, i get it, everyone can have their own personal preferences, but we dont need every member here at doomworld telling us how they dont like brutal doom.

also, thanks @Endless for telling me how overdone this damn topic is

 

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yeah. if you HAET Doom Eternal with a passion (like me, for example), there is a great way to deal with it: just don't go to topics where people are talking about Doom Eternal. BOOM! problem solved: you saved yourself from alot of frustration, and won't spoil the fun for others.

 

p.s.: the same thing works for Brutal Doom, Project Brutality, and any other such topic. ;-)

 

p.p.s.: hdoom is a masterpiece of coding. no, really. it's one of the best written mods i've ever seen in my life.

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13 hours ago, VoanHead said:

Should we include how some people shit on nuDoom fans? Or just shitting on the newer titles? Because, yes, I agree some of the Eternal fans can be insufferable, but yk what also is getting insufferable? People who purposefully have nothing new to add and just continue to clown on the newer fans like it "funny" the first time but now it's just getting fucking annoying the 100th time, no?

 

"Your fun is wrong" is a sentiment that should die agonizingly in a septic dumpster.

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4 hours ago, ketmar said:

 

 

p.p.s.: hdoom is a masterpiece of coding. no, really. it's one of the best written mods i've ever seen in my life.

i havent even played it i just watched a video..........for research..........

dont look at me like that

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22 minutes ago, Deathclaw886 said:

i havent even played it i just watched a video..........for research..........

dont look at me like that


Let's do research, like a science team!

 

 

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On 12/29/2020 at 11:01 AM, Sotenga said:

I think source port wars bug me the most. There's no need to bicker when we should be thankful Doom has so many viable source ports. Not every 90's FPS is as lucky, I say as I look mournfully in Rise of the Triad's direction.

yeah, that sucks, ROTT is a great game.

 

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The obvious number 1 answer should be the "People are arguing about something involving my favorite game" complaint threads.

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We need to raise the bar in the fine craft of the diffusion of the appreciation of tiddies. Because nature has given the living being the ability to lactate, and milk is severely underrated.

 

...Wh-what, you thought I was talking about HDoom?

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*prepare for a long replie*

Before reading my replie, please note that all of what it's written is my opinion, you can replie to it, if you want to.

I once replied to a topic about which source port I liked the most and I asked why do some people hate GZDoom, I seriously don't understand why it has gotten haters, since (in my opinion) is one of the best source ports, also, what are the statements that say that UV is the best way to play, or it is the "true-doom"? I dont get it. As @Doomkid said in one of his videos, the dificulty that makes one comfortable is the best way to play, sure the demos are usually recorded with the UV difficulty, but that doesn't mean everybody should play like that, I played with my brother in HNTR with respawning monsters, and we had fun. That's the objective, having fun. About source ports, I say it really depends on your choices. I'm not a fan of slaughter maps, but I think that who make them and those with the skill to beat them deserve a ton of respect. No, in fact, the whole community and playes deserve a lot of respect. I really don't care if doom is whether 3D or not, I actually like it. I hadn't seen any disscusions about Brutal Doom, I say it's a good mod. And no, Doom is not dying, not after the revival that Eternal and 2016 gave to the franchise. Now that I think about it, I've never sayed that the stock levels are bad (but the chasm).

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2 hours ago, Gustavo6046 said:

We need to raise the bar in the fine craft of the diffusion of the appreciation of tiddies. Because nature has given the living being the ability to lactate, and milk is severely underrated.

 

...Wh-what, you thought I was talking about HDoom?

tenor.gif

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I clicked everything, but what's really annoying, and I think EVERYONE can agree is the worst, whether or not Doom causes violence. I don't think it does for two reasons:

1) Doom helps me take my anger out on something, which is the opposite

and

2) Video games have scientifically been proven NOT to cause violence. Sorry Karens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ LOL

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3 hours ago, :[Lol 6]: said:

Now that I think about it, I've never sayed that the stock levels are bad (but the chasm).

Well, It depends, I've seen and heard people complaining about E3 of The Ultimate Doom, and some maps of TNT. I actually like all The IWADS (including FreeDoom AND Heretic), and I really don't know how to criticize a map, I just play them, whether they're good or not.

I think that the only maps I consider bad are E3M5 and The chasm.

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