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freygeist

old games modded still better

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Hi,

 

Honestly i really like the the new Dooms. 2016 as well as Eternal. 2016 was more atmospheric, Eternal is more arcade-like, but both are great games. They also both have design decisions that i didn't really like at first, but got used to like the glory kills etc.

But i still think that modded Doom for example Project Brutality or Brutal Doom with Dox or Tomtefar Extension, combined with a nice megawad, are still better than the new games. They also modernized the gameplay, but have the best ascpects of the old school gameplay. And you have more options how you can customize it.
Thats what i find a bit sad about the new Doom, i wish there were more options to customize the game to youre liking, for example turning off the colors when chainsawing or stuff like that.

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It's technically like apples vs oranges, at times.

Because of course mods are always going to be better than commercial products, specially for Doom modding.

It's like "playable fanfiction", specially for a series where wads and mods were technically "expanding the Doomverse" with what people thought could fit the aesthetic, gameplay or "lore" of old Doom.

But also because of engine differences too.

 

Mods also felt like exploring and experimenting to see what can or can't work.

 

With mods influenced by the new games (D4D, D4T, D4V, Kar En Tuk, MetaDoom, GMOTA's Doomslayer, Doom Zero (oops spoilers), Embers of Armageddon, even Hunter's Moon), it's like playing with these features for fun, noticing the differences between old and new or even just welcoming brand new features to a series.

 

I also think of Doom being a series that works with experimentation and trying new things, whether or not something even has a new art style or fits a certain canon.

Not so much of a "painting" but more of a brush and canvas, hence its staying power.

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2 hours ago, Loud Silence said:

Original Doom games does not need any gameplay mods to be better than new entries in franchise IMO.

I can agree with this, having a modern source port is all you need to get into the guts of doom :)

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Original Doom is more versatile than the newer games. 

sure, i heard about that creative feature in Doom 2016 [was it called snapmap or something?] but i also heard that it didnt do too well.

the original games will always be better than what ID/Bethesda is going to throw at us nowadays, with so much fan made content for the classic games, there is a whole universe of maps that we can play, and probably wont finish....

the best part about it is that it is very easy to make a map [not to mention free too, for the editing tools, that is]

and with gameplay mods like @Nashs gore mod and @wildweasels nazis mod, there is a minimum chance of being bored with Doom

all of these things combined make Doom and Doom 2 two of the greatest games ever to this day.

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They're entirely different games really, and debating which is "better" is pretty much solely down to which you enjoy more.

 

It's like comparing Super Mario Bros to Super Mario Odyssey: despite both being platformers in the same series, they're such entirely different experiences built for entirely different audiences in entirely different periods you can't directly compare them, because they set out to do such entirely different things.

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9 hours ago, Loud Silence said:

Original Doom games does not need any gameplay mods to be better than new entries in franchise IMO.

 

i agree that the old Dooms stand for themselves and cant be really compared. Thats why i compared modded Doom to the recent games, because they are more or less from the same period.

 

 

5 hours ago, Deathclaw886 said:

and with gameplay mods like @Nashs gore mod and @wildweasels nazis mod, there is a minimum chance of being bored with Doom

all of these things combined make Doom and Doom 2 two of the greatest games ever to this day.

 

Why play the inferior Nashgore when you have bolognese? but i guess thats taste. But i wouldnt want play to anything from wildweasel. He is a communist and responsible for banning one of the most talented modders from the zdoom forums for nonsense.

 

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5 hours ago, Deathclaw886 said:

Original Doom is more versatile than the newer games.

Yes a car is more versatile than an airplane. Comparing the mod-ability of the old vs. the new is pointless and a waste of time.

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14 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

Yes a car is more versatile than an airplane. Comparing the mod-ability of the old vs. the new is pointless and a waste of time.

Why? A game is a game no matter when it was made. Doom 1 & 2 were arguably better games, especially when modded, which in his opinion(and my mine) are more fun then Eternal. 

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36 minutes ago, freygeist said:

 

 

 

Why play the inferior Nashgore when you have bolognese?

im not the biggest fan of sgt marks blood decals. they dont really appeal to me.

but i really like the blood fountain effect in nashgore. its soooo fun!  ฅ•ω•ฅ 

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12 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

Why? A game is a game no matter when it was made. 

That is wrong. Games have come a long way and are far more complex. Comparing 25 years of applying mods to a now primitive engine to a not even 1 year old modern engine is not a fair comparison in the least. Modding modern games is objectively harder, especially when there is no source code to reference. The other point is not relevant to my reply.

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Just now, Super Mighty G said:

That is wrong. Games have come a long way and are far more complex. Comparing 25 years of applying mods to a now primitive engine to a not even 1 year old modern engine is not a fair comparison in the least. Modding modern games is objectively harder, especially when there is no source code to reference. 

This is why I can fairly say you don't understand games. Games are simply meant to fun. The complexity of the mechanics or the tech is not relevant. The newer engine not being moddable is a downside to the product, which is a fair thing to bring up especially when talking about replay value. Again games are meant to be fun, it doesn't matter that games are "more complex" 25 years later, if the end result isn't as fun as something made 25 years ago, that's worth bringing up. 

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Doom 2016 and ethernal does not support modding thus they will be denied their place in history

Doom 3 from 2004 also does not have as much mod support as older doom games

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4 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

This is why I can fairly say you don't understand games. Games are simply meant to fun. The complexity of the mechanics or the tech is not relevant. The newer engine not being moddable is a downside to the product, which is a fair thing to bring up especially when talking about replay value. Again games are meant to be fun, it doesn't matter that games are "more complex" 25 years later, if the end result isn't as fun as something made 25 years ago, that's worth bringing up. 

The point is you are comparing apples and oranges. The idTech1 engine has existed for 25 years with a public source code and a primitive engine. Naturally there are endless mods to enhance the game. Conversely Doom Eternal is modern, technical marvel. It is also not even a year old. How, then, is it fair to compare the versatility of a game with 25 years of community iteration to a game that doesn't have modding tools? "They should just make mod tools" some might say. Who's supposed to be doing that with DLC and general maintenance, and multiple ports to consider? I believe Marty Stratton gave a non specific answer but still said some kind of modding in the future was not out of the question. Until then comparing the versatility of these two products is folly.

 

And to reiterate, what is better or more fun is not the point of this specific argument I am making.

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21 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

The point is you are comparing apples and oranges.

No its not.

 

Quote

The idTech1 engine has existed for 25 years with a public source code and a primitive engine.

I don't understand this argument. What's a "primitive" engine? Minecraft could be considered a "primitive" game, but it sold lots and lots of units. "Primitive" doesn't makes sense. You can make a fun game on any engine, and it doesn't matter as long as it moves units.

 

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Conversely Doom Eternal is modern, technical marvel. 

idTech 7 is about on par with Unreal Engine 4, but this comment has no relevance to the topic.

 

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How, then, is it fair to compare the versatility of a game with 25 years of community iteration to a game that doesn't have modding tools?

Because its another entry in the same franchise? They made technical choices early on that prevented modding, but it does hurt the fun value of the product. Were talking about fun here, so its very valid to bring up. 

 

Quote

"They should just make mod tools" some might say. Who's supposed to be doing that with DLC and general maintenance, and multiple ports to consider?

The data got made some how, they could, in theory, release idstudio and the tools they used to make Doom Eternal.

 

Quote

Until then comparing the versatility of these two products is folly.

Wrong, again we are comparing the fun value of two games in the same franchise, and the technical choices made in Eternal do hurt the fun value of the product because you can't make user content. 

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Doom Eternal was a fun game, but I could tell you exactly why it won't end up as timeless as Doom 1 and 2, and technology doesn't have so much to do with it. Modding, does, definitely to an extent, that really has done wonders for Doom 1 and 2 to persist. And I think that also ties into it; it's the simplicity and elegance of their original design. Doom Eternal is not a simple game anyone could pick up and play and get almost immediately. Id made that for a hardcore audience. That's fine. But I think if you got someone with no experience to try both games, upfront they may think "well obviously this newer looking game is going to be better" but assuming they give both a solid try, Doom Eternal would probably give them a lot more frustration whereas Doom they'd probably get more enjoyment from.

 

I'm not exactly a platformer guy but it's like Super Mario Bros. Anybody could pick up and play that. For the FPS genre, Doom is the closest to that. It's not really Wolfenstein 3D because that was too basic. Doom hit the sweet spot that Super Mario Bros. did.

 

Also even if Doom Eternal did allow modding, the complexity of the game would make it difficult but for all but the most determined to do something with it. And nobody without a lot of experience would probably even be able to begin with it. That isn't the case with Doom because even I have managed to grasp the basics of making a map for Doom. One day I might even actually make one. And if I have any luck with that and want to expand, I'd say, Quake, Dusk, Overload and Prodeus all look like good places to go. 

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3 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

No its not.

 

I don't understand this argument. What's a "primitive" engine? Minecraft could be considered a "primitive" game, but it sold lots and lots of units. "Primitive" doesn't makes sense. You can make a fun game on any engine, and it doesn't matter as long as it moves units.

 

idTech 7 is about on par with Unreal Engine 4, but this comment has no relevance to the topic.

 

Because its another entry in the same franchise? They made technical choices early on that prevented modding, but it does hurt the fun value of the product. Were talking about fun here, so its very valid to bring up. 

 

The data got made some how, they could, in theory, release idstudio and the tools they used to make Doom Eternal.

 

Wrong, again we are comparing the fun value of two games in the same franchise, and the technical choices made in Eternal do hurt the fun value of the product because you can't make user content. 

 

Super Mighty G vs. An actual brick wall

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I think Eternal/2016 will have their place in history but stuff like putting skins and cosmetics behind some time based system and some online features like the upcoming Invasion could be up to debate on whether or not those could live.

Same for SnapMap and 2016's MP.

I also think one particular reason why Carmack even released his games' source codes came from his fascination on hacker culture, so he had this mindset that just isn't present in a more professional industry.

 

Something i do think helped with Doom's longevity is somehow the art style, at least as seen in most wads and mods with custom content that already tried to "expand the Doomverse".

Both classic and new games could have some era-related reason for how the aesthetics even came to be, though.

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8 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

No its not.

 

I don't understand this argument. What's a "primitive" engine? Minecraft could be considered a "primitive" game, but it sold lots and lots of units. "Primitive" doesn't makes sense. You can make a fun game on any engine, and it doesn't matter as long as it moves units.

 

idTech 7 is about on par with Unreal Engine 4, but this comment has no relevance to the topic.

 

Because its another entry in the same franchise? They made technical choices early on that prevented modding, but it does hurt the fun value of the product. Were talking about fun here, so its very valid to bring up. 

 

The data got made some how, they could, in theory, release idstudio and the tools they used to make Doom Eternal.

 

Wrong, again we are comparing the fun value of two games in the same franchise, and the technical choices made in Eternal do hurt the fun value of the product because you can't make user content. 

I'm not going to repeat myself again. So our discussion has reached an end.

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28 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

I'm not going to repeat myself again. So our discussion has reached an end.

I’d love to continue the discussion with more logic and reason but seemingly I can’t change your beliefs, and arguing beliefs is a waste of time :) 

 

idtech 7 can be moddable if they released idstudio in the same manner as they did Rage. 
 

idtech7 is not a technical marvel, it’s a good engine, but so is unreal 4.

 

Hopefully idtech 8 will be more moddable with idstudio so whatever direction they go in for the next Doom, people can change it to however they like.

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its pretty much Apples and Orange comparison here, and overall pretty pointless.

Classic and Modern doom are so different from each other that direct comparisons will be sketchy at best.

Moddability helps longevity, but It does not have any effect on the games overall quality.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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56 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

its pretty much Apples and Orange comparison here, and overall pretty pointless.

You guys keep saying its apples and oranges, but have failed to explain why. It's two products from the same franchise, its perfectly reasonable to compare the original doom and doom 2016 and eternal. 

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11 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

You guys keep saying its apples and oranges, but have failed to explain why. It's two products from the same franchise, its perfectly reasonable to compare the original doom and doom 2016 and eternal. 

i agree with this, its comparing two doom games, its not like hes comparing perfect dark and touhou sky arena matsuri climax or anything.

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lol even if the new DOOM games were as close to originals as possible in terms of moddability and the core game, we'd still have a ton of people on here exclaiming "classic DOOM better!!!1".

 

Even now, no matter your opinion on which vanilla experience is better, comparing id Tech 1 and id Tech 7 is completely unfair and ignores the differences and levels of complexity between those two engines. Not exactly the same engine; but have any of you tried to use RAGE 1's modding tools?

 

I'm completely sick of this circlejerk from "purists".

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Just now, chemo said:

Even now, no matter your opinion on which vanilla experience is better, comparing id Tech 1 and id Tech 7 is completely unfair and ignores the differences and levels of complexity between those two engines.

How does the complexity of the two engines matter at all?

 

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I'm completely sick of this circlejerk from "purists".

Stop trying to deflect. I prefer Doom 2016 over Doom 1 and 2, but I prefer Doom 1 and Doom 2 over Eternal. 

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6 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

How does the complexity of the two engines matter at all? 

How could you possibly say that modding for a relatively simple 2.5D engine from over 25 years ago is the same as one from this year that has a multitude of modern features? Could you seriously compare screenshots from DOOM 1 and Eternal and tell me that mapping for those two games would have similar learning curves?

 

6 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

Stop trying to deflect. I prefer Doom 2016 over Doom 1 and 2, but I prefer Doom 1 and Doom 2 over Eternal. 

I wasn't directing my post towards you, specifically.

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8 minutes ago, chemo said:

How could you possibly say that modding for a relatively simple 2.5D engine from over 25 years ago is the same as one from this year that has a multitude of modern features? Could you seriously compare screenshots from DOOM 1 and Eternal and tell me that mapping for those two games would have similar learning curves?

That entirely depends on how idstudio works in idTech 7, and modular the environment art pieces are in Doom Eternal. If the art pieces are meant to be repeatable with custom decals splatted on the geometry, then it should be pretty simple to flush out a maze and add set dressing. Doom Eternal has beautiful composition, but the environment set pieces by themselves aren't that complex. 

 

Truth be told the biggest issue I see from Doom community is lack of understanding on setting up proper lighting rigs. I haven't seen many people on Doomworld that have a good understanding of stage lighting, and how to properly light your scene. I think that would be the biggest learning curve for most modders here. 

 

Quote

I wasn't directing my post towards you, specifically.

Fair enough : )

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2 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

You guys keep saying its apples and oranges, but have failed to explain why. It's two products from the same franchise, its perfectly reasonable to compare the original doom and doom 2016 and eternal. 

They did not fail to explain, you have failed to understand. A comparison, from a technical standpoint, between two software products of the same brand designed in a time difference of 25 years is just unfair in general. 

 

Comparing the original Doom to Doom RPG or Crash Bandicoot to Crash Team Racing from any aspect just because they are from the same franchise or share the same brand makes no sense. Also, comparing Doom mods to official releases is pointless as well because not everything created in the Doom engine can be considered a Doom game. Basically what you are saying is you can compare apples and oranges because they are both fruit.

 

Also this

3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Moddability helps longevity, but It does not have any effect on the games overall quality.

 

Edited by Hofmann

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23 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

That entirely depends on how idstudio works in idTech 7, and modular the environment art pieces are in Doom Eternal. If the art pieces are meant to be repeatable with custom decals splatted on the geometry, then it should be pretty simple to flush out a maze and add set dressing. Doom Eternal has beautiful composition, but the environment set pieces by themselves aren't that complex.

Let me put it this way - this is what an average city level is supposed to look like in DOOM II:

1449908623_doom2downtown.PNG.9b6f7a02652e2da5100f6aa73b5b2a55.PNG

 

And this is what an average city level is supposed to look like in DOOM Eternal:

dehellonearth.jpg.365c8edc37eba597c6568585610726ce.jpg

 

Clearly, one looks way more complex than the other, and I don't see how it would be less of a time-consuming process to create a map of such fidelity.

 

In addition, the modding scene in classic DOOM is the result of years of experience gained and progress made with hardware and tools. You think that all the impressive maps and mods made for the older games today are of similar quality to those in the 90's?

Edited by chemo

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