old games modded still better

[dewmguy]

Damn

even though new iphones are sleek

I hate the fact that I can't replace or repair my new iphone's bits like I could with them old ones of the same company from 10 years ago.

They just don't make them like that anymore and therefore are worse.

/s

[Ziad EL Zein]

LETS SIMPLY PUT IT THIS WAY 

DOOM & DOOM 2 ARE BETTER BECAUSE 

They give you more room to breathe in terms of level design!  Thus they have more creative levels and

Better overall gameplay and atmosphere.  Why .....?

Because it is not an arena open….arena closes …. arena open….arena closes ….    Rinse & Repeat.

No matter how creative you are using this structure is not as good as the old period.

Even if they manage to create a better level segmenting it into little arenas messes up the experience altogether

Plus I really do not like to chainsaw an enemy in order to reload!  Why!

See gameplay in the modern Dooms is built around the arena-based combat which is not as versatile and

varied as the original ….

Still Doom 2016 & Eternal are good

By the way,

I finished Doom 2016 on nightmare back in 2018 (when I finally got the chance to play it)   

halfway  Doom eternal ... simply not finding the time :(

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Ziad EL Zein : added some info

[Cantleylads]

On 1/4/2021 at 8:38 AM, Ziad EL Zein said:

LETS SIMPLY PUT IT THIS WAY 

DOOM & DOOM 2 ARE BETTER BECAUSE 

They give you more room to breathe in terms of level design!  Thus they have more creative levels and

Better overall gameplay and atmosphere.  Why .....?

Because it is not an arena open….arena closes …. arena open….arena closes ….    Rinse & Repeat.

No matter how creative you are using this structure is not as good as the old period.

Even if they manage to create a better level segmenting it into little arenas messes up the experience altogether

Plus I really do not like to chainsaw an enemy in order to reload!  Why!

See gameplay in the modern Dooms is built around the arena-based combat which is not as versatile and

varied as the original ….

Still Doom 2016 & Eternal are good

By the way,

I finished Doom 2016 on nightmare back in 2018 (when I finally got the chance to play it)   

halfway  Doom eternal ... simply not finding the time :(

 

 

Whilst it's tough for a couple of recent releases to compete with games that have over 25 years of post-launch content, I prefer the combat in Doom Eternal over say, BTS-X, for example.

 

Then again I was always more of a Quake MP guy and the newest Doom caters to that quite hard.

 

Modern Doom's level design never bothered me, I always prefer combat over key hunting. Map pacing is secondary to combat for me at least.

 

Chainsaw in DE serves a greater purpose than in classic Doom. It can also be kept to minimal usage as you learn to maximise ammo efficiency. Plus, I appreciate the small break from the intense combat that it provides. More importantly, it promotes greater weapon variety than Doom 2 - something that's important in a game that has a more complex set of enemies, in smaller numbers.

 

I'm coming from the perspective of playing classic Doom on UV and DE on Nightmare.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Cantleylads : Grammar

[xdarkmasterx]

3 hours ago, Ziad EL Zein said:

LETS SIMPLY PUT IT THIS WAY 

DOOM & DOOM 2 ARE BETTER BECAUSE 

They give you more room to breathe in terms of level design!  Thus they have more creative levels and

Better overall gameplay and atmosphere.  Why .....?

Because it is not an arena open….arena closes …. arena open….arena closes ….    Rinse & Repeat.

No matter how creative you are using this structure is not as good as the old period.

Even if they manage to create a better level segmenting it into little arenas messes up the experience altogether

Plus I really do not like to chainsaw an enemy in order to reload!  Why!

See gameplay in the modern Dooms is built around the arena-based combat which is not as versatile and

varied as the original ….

Still Doom 2016 & Eternal are good

By the way,

I finished Doom 2016 on nightmare back in 2018 (when I finally got the chance to play it)   

halfway  Doom eternal ... simply not finding the time :(

 

 

I do wish the levels were a bit less linear in Eternal, but still, the focus on arena fights allows much more depth in gameplay than if you could beat everything by standing around a corner and shooting everything.

 

If "freedom" trumped everything else, then I suppose we have to concede that Fallout 76 is better game than Devil May Cry, Classic Doom and every other "restrictive" game. After all, it offers you more freedom, doesn't it? ;)

[mammajamma]

I mean to be fair the sheer amount of mods for classic Doom are part of the reason people are fine with Eternal not having modding tools (at least at the moment). And id's damn well aware of it too, considering how Unity Doom includes modern vanilla megawads like BTSX and limit-removing episodes like Double Impact and Sigil, or how Eternal's most recent demon skin pack references Ancient Aliens, or how the purple goo in certain Eternal levels pretty much function the same way as Boom's mud sector effect.

 

[Rytrik]

On 12/27/2020 at 2:39 AM, CBM said:

Doom 2016 and ethernal does not support modding thus they will be denied their place in history

Doom 3 from 2004 also does not have as much mod support as older doom games

 

While Eternal doesn't CURRENTLY have mod support, that doesn't mean that it can't have mod support in the future. The team / resources are currently being driven to get DLC2 released on time, and then add in Invasion. Both of those take precedence over creating official modding tools for the game (DLC2 being for legal reasons, and Invasion for being something they've said they plan to do) and I think it's wise for them to devote the energy there first. Also, the pandemic has made their game development more challenging.

 

 

Btw, Marty has said that they are aware of the community wanting modding tools. So it is on their radar.

[CBM]

16 hours ago, Rytrik said:

 

While Eternal doesn't CURRENTLY have mod support, that doesn't mean that it can't have mod support in the future. The team / resources are currently being driven to get DLC2 released on time, and then add in Invasion. Both of those take precedence over creating official modding tools for the game (DLC2 being for legal reasons, and Invasion for being something they've said they plan to do) and I think it's wise for them to devote the energy there first. Also, the pandemic has made their game development more challenging.

 

 

Btw, Marty has said that they are aware of the community wanting modding tools. So it is on their radar.

good to know, however doom 2016 never did get any interesting modding tools as far as I know

 

and doom 3 never became the success it could have been because they waiting far too long to make it open source

[QuaketallicA]

On 12/26/2020 at 1:07 AM, freygeist said:

Hi,

 

Honestly i really like the the new Dooms. 2016 as well as Eternal. 2016 was more atmospheric, Eternal is more arcade-like, but both are great games. They also both have design decisions that i didn't really like at first, but got used to like the glory kills etc.

But i still think that modded Doom for example Project Brutality or Brutal Doom with Dox or Tomtefar Extension, combined with a nice megawad, are still better than the new games. They also modernized the gameplay, but have the best ascpects of the old school gameplay. And you have more options how you can customize it.
Thats what i find a bit sad about the new Doom, i wish there were more options to customize the game to youre liking, for example turning off the colors when chainsawing or stuff like that.

You can customize the HUD quite a lot, more than in most in other shooters.

 

For me personally, I always disabled things like objective pointers/compass, glory kill highlights (you'd be surprised how good you are at knowing when they're glory killable just from knowing how much damage you've done/if they're standing still), interaction prompts (after I've beaten it once), and any crosshair/reticule.

 

As for Brutal Doom, it is pretty much the inspiration for the new Doom games' power fantasy/ANGRY MAN/glory kill ideas. Now, I usually stick to vanilla, but I generally find BD works best in HellonEarthStarterPack, since it was designed with that wad in mind. (Don't like some of the Extermination Day changes, even though HOESP is still unfinished in some areas) The combination of maps and gameplay works well, but it is a fundamentally different experience from what the new ones or even vanilla classic Doom provide. I think if one thing can be said about the Doom series, no two games are really identical, except maybe Doom 64 (very similar to PSDoom), but that was a console game from a time when you didn't usually have ports of consistent quality across all platforms. What I'm saying is, comparing Doom Eternal to Doom 3 to Ultimate Doom is really apples vs oranges vs pears. Even Eternal and 2016 feel radically different, despite being so similar on the surface.

Edited March 10, 2021 by QuaketallicA

[QuaketallicA]

Classic maps and wads are better in the sense that they offer non-linear level design over Serious Sam-esque arenas, and the nature of id Tech 1/upgraded GZDoom engine really allows a creative mind to conjure whatever the author desires. The limitations of the engine, frankly, only help with the creative process, because it forces you to think about how to make the idea work within those limitations.

 

However, 2016 and Eternal especially also offer a different experience that you can't properly imitate in a classic wad. There is so much going on between the upgrade system (Preator suit points, weapon mods, mastery upgrade, etc.), the movement system, the blood punch/grenades, the various ways to gain health/ammo/armor back, that is all very finely tuned. It's really a testament to the devs that they give you just barely enough time to play around with and get the hang of a new gun before giving you some new fun thing to toy around with. 

 

Like most linear shooters, this sort of game works best when  a good "director" finely tunes the experience to feel just right as the player moves through it. Where the freedom and fast-paced decision-making of ol' Doom comes in is when you're in those arenas, particularly on UV and Nightmare.

 

That said, I think the arenas can and do get old fast if the game doesn't do as good a job of balancing them out with enemies that are NOT in arenas, or having other interesting things to do. And the arena fights themselves need to have different combinations of enemy types (like Serious Sam) to keep the combat interesting. I think in this regard, (and many, many others), Eternal learned from the mistakes of its predecessor and refined the formula. 

[whatup876]

To me, the main inspiration of the new games is just a general take from the public's eyes (which is why i sometimes mention Death Battle and 4chan related culture, even if it sounds like a conspiracy theory/rabbit hole) and even if Brutal Doom has a take on it, both BD and official Doom reboots seem to have a source of inspiration, being a reinterpretation from the public.

I always wonder if, had BD never been made, someone else would have made a mod that tried to "gameplay-ify" the Doom comic, while making Doom more absurd in the process.

 

A lot of gameplay mods have gone far with how they can mimick modern game and advanced features but, if there ever was a Doom game that tried to literally fuse "old and new", i thought a low poly engine could allow for the best of both worlds.

[Koko Ricky]

I'd like someone to propose how exactly a non-game developer (i.e. a hobbyist) would ever hope to make levels from scratch for an advanced engine like Doom Eternal?

[Gothic]

On 12/26/2020 at 6:57 PM, Loud Silence said:

Original Doom games does not need any gameplay mods to be better than new entries in franchise IMO.

I disagree, they're good games, but them alone wouldn't be as popular if modding wasn't a thing.

 

EDIT: I really need to check the dates on some of these posts, I though this was a recent thread

[Chezza]

I personally only enjoy classic Doom with gameplay mods now, and I did play it as a child for all of its nostalgic value. I play modern Dooms more than classic as the evolution of gameplay satiates my desire to have new content, challenges and introduction of new mechanics.

 

Also Doom was a product for its time. It was incredibly innovative game in nearly all fields and was made (and for its time, could be made) by a small team of dedicated and talented people. But that's almost impossible to accomplish today with all the complexity of games, more resources required, higher expectations from gamers and evolution in taste especially with new generations.

 

In a way, I compare it to the music industry. I have my doubts we will see another Elvis, Michael Jackson or Beatles. Today's environment won't allow it due to the saturation of the music industry (which to me isn't a bad thing for listeners). At best you get Eminem's and Justin Beavers which are more flavours of the year and gets a lot of hate with it.

 

There are exceptions to the rule for games. If a game becomes incredibly accessible and innovative then it can become huge even with a micro team / individual. Minecraft is a great example. Doom was a big game for its time, but has become quite accessible with modding / map creation.

 

So yeah, despite subjective opinions you can't really say older games are superior to newer ones, even with mods. New games will rarely be as legendary for the reasons I provided above.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Chezza

[Loud Silence]

31 minutes ago, Gothic said:

I disagree, they're good games, but them alone wouldn't be as popular if modding wasn't a thing.

Popularity and quality are not the same thing.

[TheRedTide]

Specially Brutal Doom. *runs for cover*

[icecoldduke]

On 3/10/2021 at 1:30 PM, Chezza said:

Also Doom was a product for its time. It was incredibly innovative game in nearly all fields and was made (and for its time, could be made) by a small team of dedicated and talented people. But that's almost impossible to accomplish today with all the complexity of games, more resources required, higher expectations from gamers and evolution in taste especially with new generations.

I disagree honestly; Doom 1 shareware episode was the best episode in the Doom franchise from official releases. Something got lost in the episode 2 and 3 bits in terms of quality. Doom 2 had some way better monsters, but the level design was also kinda lacking in the same way episode 2 and 3 of the original game. I think what kept Doom alive over the years was us, the modding community. Doom provided a fun, baseline game, that could easily be tweaked and expanded upon by just about anyone. But objectively speaking, community made content was a lot more fun to play then the original levels(with the exception of episode 1 of Doom 1).

 

The problem with modding modern games, is it takes a lot more development time to see results; so I agree in a sense we won't see another Doom, but that's not because the market is saturated, but because developers aren't spending enough time creating more user friendly tools to pass on to customers to make mods. 

[Rytrik]

1 hour ago, icecoldduke said:

The problem with modding modern games, is it takes a lot more development time to see results; so I agree in a sense we won't see another Doom, but that's not because the market is saturated, but because developers aren't spending enough time creating more user friendly tools to pass on to customers to make mods. 

 

Are you referring to Doom Eternal? If so, see my previous post. Marty has addressed this. id is aware of the community's desire for modding tools, but have higher priorities (DLC2 & Invasion) for where to allocate resources. 

[icecoldduke]

55 minutes ago, Rytrik said:

 

Are you referring to Doom Eternal? If so, see my previous post. Marty has addressed this. id is aware of the community's desire for modding tools, but have higher priorities (DLC2 & Invasion) for where to allocate resources. 

No I get they want to focus on DLC2, but I believe that’s a mistake. I think Eternal was very controversial for a lot of reason and mods would open up the game to a wider audience. 

[jazzmaster9]

15 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

No I get they want to focus on DLC2, but I believe that’s a mistake. I think Eternal was very controversial for a lot of reason and mods would open up the game to a wider audience. 

There are already mods for Eternal out that rebalances them game to be more difficulty. I can't see how that can't also be used to make the game easier (less spawns, changed enemy health etc) 

 

also id is really focusing on the DLC since those were promised for people who have pre ordered.

[omx32x]

8 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

No I get they want to focus on DLC2, but I believe that’s a mistake. I think Eternal was very controversial for a lot of reason and mods would open up the game to a wider audience. 

i dont think that is going to be the case

mods for new games dont have the same impact because a huge part of the audience doesnt play on the pc where they can have full enjoyment of not only the best mods but also the best mod creation tools

while i would like to see mod tools soon i dont think it would open them to a wider audience just make the community happier

[icecoldduke]

45 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

i dont think that is going to be the case

mods for new games dont have the same impact because a huge part of the audience doesnt play on the pc where they can have full enjoyment of not only the best mods but also the best mod creation tools

while i would like to see mod tools soon i dont think it would open them to a wider audience just make the community happier

I completely agree about the console part, but in theory you can make data mods(new maps in idStudio, decl changes, etc) and have it work across platforms. Didn’t Skyrim have mods on consoles, I can’t remember. 

[Rytrik]

11 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

No I get they want to focus on DLC2, but I believe that’s a mistake. I think Eternal was very controversial for a lot of reason and mods would open up the game to a wider audience. 

 

It's fine if you believe it was a mistake. That's your prerogative. However, 2 DLCs were promised, pre-launch, to Deluxe+ / Year 1 Pass customers. There would be legal and financial ramifications for them not fulfilling their promise to customers. If customers did not receive their 2 promised DLCs, they could demand refunds, which would cost id Software millions of dollars in refunds. That's slightly more important than creating mod tools for the community.

[seed]

3 hours ago, Rytrik said:

That's slightly more important than creating mod tools for the community.

 

Especially since they were not promised, they were considered. That's two very different things, especially in relation to the DLC.

[Sinael]

There's a key difference between classic Doom and nuDoom, and that's how progression works.

In classic Doom you progress by exploring environment, and finding means to open up more of the environment to explore, whether via switch or a key. Enemies are an obstacle to exploration, but you are generally not explicitly REQUIRED to kill them to progress, unless it's a boss encounter. That's the same structure as Metroid, and gives same kind of satisfaction from exploration, at least for me.

 

In nuDoom, killing enemies is required for progress and you can't progress further until you clear an encounter. The exploration, while "there", is much more streamlined and is not the focus. It tries to scratch a different itch, and as such does not scratch that "explore 3D environment" itch at all.

[Duke of Pathoris]

Anyone think it's wrong to compare two games that were made for totally different reasons with totally different experiences in mind? 

[scalliano]

Y'all lost me at "brutal"...