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xvertigox

PSX Doom is actually really good

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Psx doom is great, it's basically a re-telling of the events of the classic doom duology, well atleast in my opinion.

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10 hours ago, DRMman said:

Psx doom is great, it's basically a re-telling of the events of the classic doom duology, well atleast in my opinion.

 

I get what you mean, it's similar to D64 in that regard. It's not just a cheap console knockoff, it's it's own thing. I wonder if any other ports are similar?

 

My understanding is that they used the Jaguar levels because they ported that version rather the PC version. I'm curious if the PSX hardware could handle the full maps. I'm sure it has enough grunt, given it can run more demanding games, but maybe the engine wasn't optimized for the PSX architecture.

 

Edit: Interesting info from this thread that explains why the maps can't 1:1 match the PC version
 

Spoiler
On 12/21/2020 at 10:59 AM, Dark Pulse said:

Very much so.

 

In short: the PS1 CD-ROM is, at most, a 2x speed drive. That means a maximum sustained data transfer rate of 300 KB/sec, and that comes at a ~300 millisecond seek time just to begin to read data. The system does have 2 MB of RAM, but the game EXE itself is some 400-odd KB, and of course a bunch of other data must be maintained, so effectively each level has to run in approximately 1 MB of RAM space, and there's only about 1 MB of VRAM as well (which is where all the textures, sprites, screen buffers, etc. are stored).

 

The Jaguar also has 2 MB of RAM, but only 4 KB of internal RAM on the chip that does most of the graphics processing, and all graphical effects are software-based and not hardware-accelerated like on the PS1. However, it has one advantage the PSX does not: It's on a ROM cartridge, and ROM access times are on the nanosecond scale - several orders of magnitude faster, being perhaps 200ns for a read. That would be 0.0002 milliseconds. As a result, you can just easily set up a texture paging scheme, dynamically allocating textures when they're needed, and swapping them out extremely quickly when they aren't needed anymore. The ultra-fast access speed makes this virtually seamless, and you only really need a relatively small amount of RAM needed to store basically what's just currently in view and maybe a little bit extra for stuff you recently saw. Anything else can be freed up and re-allocated when some texture that's not currently in view is about to be drawn.

 

The PS1 has no prayer of this. Every texture (flat and sidedef) must be stored in VRAM, ready to go, because if you have to go hunting for even a single texture, you're talking a third of a second just to get to a point on the disc where it could be read, then even longer to do the actual read. And since it must all be stored in VRAM, you're ultimately limited by the capacity of your RAM and VRAM.

 

This is also why in the Jaguar version, you could, for example, have a Spider Mastermind and Cyberdemon duking it out. Those of us who've worked on the GEC Master Edition project for the PS1 know there is absolutely no prayer of us being able to do that. We simply do not have the RAM space for it; a Cyberdemon takes up about 500 KB of the main RAM space alone, and then all sprites must fit into approximately a 384 KB dynamic window (and they are the only thing that can essentially be paged, unlike textures - but this comes at the cost of having to all be loaded into RAM first), so very little other sprites can be in-view along with it or you will literally bomb out with a "Texture Cache Overflow" error.

 

Ditto for having to compromise on level textures - it will be impossible for us to 1:1 texture the levels like the PC version. Partially because not all the same textures are included, but even if they were by us adding them back in, we simply do not have enough VRAM space to do all of them. We can't do more than 16 flats per-level, and while texture space does vary depending on what size textures you pick (in PS1 Doom, they are all 128 high, and either 16, 64, 128, or (skies only) 256 wide), essentially you can think of the wall texture space as being approximately 768x256. So you have to mix and match, and work like a jigsaw puzzle, fitting in as much of the main textures as you can, and compromising when you begin to run out of room.

 

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It's an interesting challenge. But it means any cartridge-based version will be absolutely superior in that respect.

 

Edited by xvertigox

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3 minutes ago, xvertigox said:

 

I get what you mean, it's similar to D64 in that regard. It's not just a cheap console knockoff, it's it's own thing. I wonder if any other ports are similar?

 

My understanding is that they used the Jaguar levels because they ported that version rather the PC version. I'm curious if the PSX hardware could handle the full maps. I'm sure it has enough grunt, given it can run more demanding games, but maybe the engine wasn't optimized for the PSX architecture.

It's quite a thought.

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3 hours ago, xvertigox said:

My understanding is that they used the Jaguar levels because they ported that version rather the PC version. I'm curious if the PSX hardware could handle the full maps. I'm sure it has enough grunt, given it can run more demanding games, but maybe the engine wasn't optimized for the PSX architecture.

Thanks for pimping my explanation. I'll give you an explanation here as well.

 

Geometry-wise, most of the original maps would be workable - that's part of what the GEC Master Edition project restores, after all, and I believe some mappers (such as Dexiaz) are working on their own little pet projects to restore the original PC versions of the maps to the PSX engine as faithfully as possible (unlike GEC, where we're only re-inserting the ones that were cut). Where it would potentially have to differ is in a few areas:

  1. Flats/Textures, for the aforementioned VRAM reasons
  2. Monster variety, for the aforementioned RAM reasons
  3. Heights - the original engines have a bug where a texture can only vertically tile once, and exactly once. Effectively this means there's a 256 height limit on a wall; any higher and the textures will stretch. There are some workarounds (like carving out a new plane 1px in at a 256 height and continuing from there) but obviously that's a workaround, not a solution, and not something you can easily use if the player is going to actually see the area up-close. Erick has actually fixed this now that the engine is reversed, so this is more of a limitation of the original games than the GEC project once a new version is out.
  4. Some visual effects (such as invisible bridges and other effects that rely on self-referencing sectors) aren't workable as-is due to the different renderer, and some workarounds must be used as a result.
  5. Obviously there's a number of textures, flats, decorations, and monster types (namely the Arch-vile) that are missing.

Things get trickier once you go up to more complex maps. Limit-removing stuff is likely to run up against a sidedef limit (indeed, I have this issue in the eventual conversion of Romero's E1M8B I'll be doing). Obviously anything that'd rely on Boom types or effects is totally out. And let's not get started on anything more advanced than that.

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22 hours ago, xvertigox said:

I'm playing it on my Xbox Series X via emulator but the controls feel so much nicer than the Unity port. It might be the fact that I'm using the dpad and always run is off so I'll have to test that in the new port.

 

Shameless plug, but just in case you haven't seen it you might be interested to hear about PsyDoom - a new native port of PSX Doom for PC. It supports the Xbox controller by default, analog controls for smoother movement, and a fully uncapped framerate. A new high resolution renderer is also in the works and planned the next release.

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Back when console versions of PC games were actually new games that had the same or similar gameplay. A great version of Doom I tell you. I am now wondering why they used Aubrey Hodge's music instead of remixed ones from the PC version for PlayStation Doom.

Edited by The Strife Commando

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13 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

I am now wondering why they used Aubrey Hodge's music instead of remixed ones from the PC version for PlayStation Doom.

 

Because they did not fit the atmosphere and tone they were going for.

 

Those clashed artistically quite badly with what they had in mind.

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I always appreciate the change of music tone. Wouldn't have the same impact if it had some remixed versions of the soundtrack.....basically, it could have been a copy of the 3DO port.

 

Guess that the folks who played it on the original hardware, me included, were fortunate to discover such version of the game.

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5 hours ago, seed said:

I am now wondering why they used Aubrey Hodge's music instead of remixed ones from the PC version for PlayStation Doom.

 

5 hours ago, seed said:

Because they did not fit the atmosphere and tone they were going for.

Those clashed artistically quite badly with what they had in mind.

 

Another possible reason is licensing. Perhaps it was cheaper or less complicated to get Aubrey to do the music & SFX rather than figure out licensing terms with Bobby Prince for the music and for some of the SFX. A lot of the original SFX came from sample CDs also, so that might have complicated licensing as well. Thought I saw this point mentioned before somewhere but I can't recall where... (maybe just my imagination :P)

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5 minutes ago, intacowetrust said:

Another possible reason is licensing. Perhaps it was cheaper or less complicated to get Aubrey to do the music & SFX rather than figure out licensing terms with Bobby Prince for the music and for some of the SFX. A lot of the original SFX came from sample CDs also, so that might have complicated licensing as well. Thought I saw this point mentioned before somewhere but I can't recall where... (maybe just my imagination :P)

 

Possibly, but I am inclined to believe it was a conscious and deliberate design choice.

 

If you play PSX Doom with PC Doom sfx and music, it loses all its magic and the game is at odds with itself that way. The reverse is also true, playing PC Doom with PSX Doom sfx and music is equally strange to say the least.

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I wish we could see more unique spins on Doom like PSX Doom. I love that there exists a version of Doom that's similar but very different, it offers another way of  playing the same game you love in a different light.

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On 1/25/2021 at 2:18 PM, intacowetrust said:

Another possible reason is licensing. Perhaps it was cheaper or less complicated to get Aubrey to do the music & SFX rather than figure out licensing terms with Bobby Prince for the music and for some of the SFX. A lot of the original SFX came from sample CDs also, so that might have complicated licensing as well. Thought I saw this point mentioned before somewhere but I can't recall where... (maybe just my imagination :P)

 

I remembered something like this as well, Aubrey states in this old interview that id was in some sort of "dispute with their original composer" which seems like a primary reason for the change. Still this whole dispute thing seems a bit odd when both SNES and 3DO Doom were released within the same time period as PSX Doom with the original PC music and SFX intact.

 

I also remember reading somewhere that Sony was pushing for a lot of early PSX games to have new exclusive content to make the system stand out in the very crowded console market of the mid 90s, so this might have been a valid reason for the change as well. I know of at least two other titles besides PSX Doom with the "Custom/Exclusive PlayStation Version" text on the cover, so this could have been some kind of campaign that Sony was trying to push in the early days.

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On lundi 25 janvier 2021 at 8:25 PM, seed said:

Possibly, but I am inclined to believe it was a conscious and deliberate design choice.

It can perfectly be both.

 

The story of Bobby Prince's lawsuit against Gearbox shows that Prince (who, after all, had been a lawyer before his game composer career) certainly knew how to get better terms in his contracts than probably most other musicians, and that he isn't shy about defending the rights he's secured.

 

Then combine that with the need to slow down gameplay a bit for the console -- to accommodate lower framerates and less precise player input -- and you easily come to the decision that you need the game to have a darker, more sinister ambiance to compensate, and that goes with a very different soundtrack direction. Romero originally wanted just non-stop hard rock/heavy metal, and Prince himself had convinced him that the soundtrack also needed slower, creepier songs, so the PSX soundtrack is just cranking the low-tempo creepiness to 11.

 

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5 hours ago, Mattfrie1 said:

I remembered something like this as well, Aubrey states in this old interview that id was in some sort of "dispute with their original composer" which seems like a primary reason for the change. Still this whole dispute thing seems a bit odd when both SNES and 3DO Doom were released within the same time period as PSX Doom with the original PC music and SFX intact.

 

Thanks for digging up that article, was an interesting read! (and for confirming I didn't just imagine this :P)

 

Pure speculation on my part, but it's possible that the console ports might have had something to do with the disagreement as well. Maybe there was a royalty issue there of some sorts... Only the parties involved would know for sure though.

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Absolutely the best rendition/port of DOOM that has ever been made. It looked better than all the others, and it performed better than them all, too.

 

 

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PSX DOOM was my first exposure to the game, and it's such an incredible version of the game. The music, SFX, and graphics are so "dirty" and just feel fresh and almost like a new game all together.

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First version of Doom I ever played. I still go back to it frequently because even though things are changed it's nice to have the option of a different experience for Doom 1 and 2.

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On 1/25/2021 at 2:25 PM, seed said:

Possibly, but I am inclined to believe it was a conscious and deliberate design choice.

 

If you play PSX Doom with PC Doom sfx and music, it loses all its magic and the game is at odds with itself that way. The reverse is also true, playing PC Doom with PSX Doom sfx and music is equally strange to say the least.

I guess that depends on the mapset. I think Aubrey Hodges' soundtrack works well with Knee Deep In ZDoom.

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On 1/21/2021 at 12:04 AM, xvertigox said:

I'm playing it on my Xbox Series X via emulator but the controls feel so much nicer than the Unity port. It might be the fact that I'm using the dpad and always run is off so I'll have to test that in the new port.

 

 

When Doom came out on the PSX there wasn't any support for the analog stick controls, so in retrospect when I go back to PSX Doom (I still have my original copy I bought new) the controls show some shortcomings. The PS1's d-pad (and arguably all PS console's d-pads) isn't really easy to flick or more dynamically move like a thumb stick would be as the d-pad would have been what you used to move both forward and side to side (along with strafe on the L1 and R1). Most modern console FPS games don't function with that control scheme as you would probably be using one to 'look' around and the other to move. Ideally it's nice to have two sets of thumb sticks or a thumb stick and a d-pad present so that you can move forward and backward with one and side to side with the other.

 

Playing the PSX Doom on an actual PS1 with just one d-pad can be a bit of a shock for first time players that aren't used to that sort of control.

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Definitely a "duh" statement, it's great! But it's also great to see people enjoy it that otherwise didn't think they would. :)

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Posted (edited)

What version does someone recommend that most closely replicates the PSX experience but with the luxury of high res, mouse control, and freelook?

 

And what version that has all the best benefits of the PSX and PC combined (like above playing on PC but with some PC stuff restored into it without cutting PSX's added content)?

 

Somewhere on Zdoom forums I found an old Brutal PSX Doom v1.0 combining Brutal Doom v1.9 and PSX Doom v2.133.  It works in Zandronum but not newer GZDoom.  Besides that, it has Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Master Levels, TNT, and Plutonia altogether as an episode selection.   Aside from the obvious missing architecture in Doom maps, they're apparently all conversions of the PSX as there's the colored lighting in all of them.   Pretty great, impressive, immersive project with 8 difficulties.   However, I'd like to cruise through at least the Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 of PSX more vanilla on skill 4 without the Brutal to see all the changes and Doom 2 stuff put into Doom 1 maps.

 

And I just got trapped in Hell Beneath (E4M1 is now map 24) at the secret that used to be the NIN logo.   Ran into some 64 wide opening in the wall as walls were rising up behind me and the switch to lower them is inside them.  Had to idclip out.

 

EDIT: It looks like GEC Master Edition for GZDoom and PSX Doom: The Lost Levels are what I'm looking.   Funny enough, I was searching for any fixed, overhauled, actually good versions of Sewers and Betray from X-Box rather than PSX but they seem to be in the Lost Levels.

Edited by Gokuma

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Hmm. I have to admit that despite growing up with Doom on PC, I don't really have any idea what it actually looks like anymore. I play it on GZDoom with just the software rendering (although that's so I don't interfere with the mining going on my graphics cards) but I have to assume I'm getting a very, very optimized Doom, on a giant flatscreen no less. Because when I watch PlaystationDoom youtube videos I'm always surprised by how poor it looks, and how clunky the player's movement is compared to PC Doom - but again, this was a different era, one that I don't know that I'm remembering fairly, being played on a primitive controller. I do like the colored lighting tricks I see, certainly doesn't diminish it to me. I like the music too, I'm not a big midi music guy. Or at all actually.

 

 

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I wish there were more experiences like PSX DOOM. It makes me ponder about how other games could utilize much of the same design as the original, but with differing lighting, textures, sounds, etc, to make something fresh, yet familiar. Kinda like alternate cuts of feature films.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Gokuma said:

What version does someone recommend that most closely replicates the PSX experience but with the luxury of high res, mouse control, and freelook?

 

And what version that has all the best benefits of the PSX and PC combined (like above playing on PC but with some PC stuff restored into it without cutting PSX's added content)?

 

Somewhere on Zdoom forums I found an old Brutal PSX Doom v1.0 combining Brutal Doom v1.9 and PSX Doom v2.133.  It works in Zandronum but not newer GZDoom.  Besides that, it has Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Master Levels, TNT, and Plutonia altogether as an episode selection.   Aside from the obvious missing architecture in Doom maps, they're apparently all conversions of the PSX as there's the colored lighting in all of them.   Pretty great, impressive, immersive project with 8 difficulties.   However, I'd like to cruise through at least the Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 of PSX more vanilla on skill 4 without the Brutal to see all the changes and Doom 2 stuff put into Doom 1 maps.

 

And I just got trapped in Hell Beneath (E4M1 is now map 24) at the secret that used to be the NIN logo.   Ran into some 64 wide opening in the wall as walls were rising up behind me and the switch to lower them is inside them.  Had to idclip out.

 

EDIT: It looks like GEC Master Edition for GZDoom and PSX Doom: The Lost Levels are what I'm looking.   Funny enough, I was searching for any fixed, overhauled, actually good versions of Sewers and Betray from X-Box rather than PSX but they seem to be in the Lost Levels.

PsyDoom is literally a reverse-engineered port of PSX Doom back to PC. The other two are recreations/imaginations.

 

(To be fair, the guys who made the GEC Master Edition for GZDoom did the reverse-engineering work, though, so their version is pretty close itself.)

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2 hours ago, StalkerZHS said:

PSX Doom has a unity port?

No.

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3 hours ago, StalkerZHS said:

PSX Doom has a unity port?

I'm curious how you even come to that thought.

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2 hours ago, ZeroTheEro said:

I'm curious how you even come to that thought.

I suppose it was this:

On jeudi 21 janvier 2021 at 7:04 AM, xvertigox said:

I'm playing it on my Xbox Series X via emulator but the controls feel so much nicer than the Unity port.

But it compares the controls to the Unity port of the Doom & Doom II.

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