Final thoughts on Doom 2 after completion?

[Nights]

After 3 years of putting it off and ragequitting, I finally conquered Doom 2 just minutes ago.

You're free to call me a newbie or just plain bad if you deem Doom 2 as "easy", idc honestly, I'm just happy I beat it.

For me, it wasn't the difficulty that was so off putting, but just the inconsistent level design and the dicketry that some of these levels contain. I don't think I'm coming back to Doom 2 for a bit.

[D4NUK1]

I feel the same when i completed Doom II in Doom95, it's feel like after level 15 it's just a pushover of tramps and weird progression, until level 29 and 30.

I feel i just got better at playing Doom 2 was with the custom wads and Plutonia, where i learned to play like the best.

[Nights]

1 minute ago, jamondemarnatural said:

I feel the same when i completed Doom II in Doom95, it's feel like after level 15 it's just a pushover of tramps and weird progression, until level 29 and 30.

I feel i just got better at playing Doom 2 was with the custom wads and Plutonia, where i learned to play like the best.

I enjoy Final Doom more than Doom 2, I don't know what it is. I think it's just because Final Doom is all new to me, but I find myself playing TNT (not Plutonia, because chaingunners) because I have more fun doing so

[forgettable pyromaniac]

10 minutes ago, Warp said:

I enjoy Final Doom more than Doom 2, I don't know what it is. I think it's just because Final Doom is all new to me, but I find myself playing TNT (not Plutonia, because chaingunners) because I have more fun doing so

Word.

I like TNT the best, not that the original IWads and Plutionia are any bad, it's just what I find the most fun.

[ReX]

In 1994, when DooM2 was released, there were virtually no other FPS games. Perhaps as a result of that, all of DooM2 was a major treat for me. At that time I played the game purely for fun, with not the slightest interest in critically evaluating it. Ah, the innocence of youth.

[continuum.mid]

After completing Doom 2, my impression was that the levels were actually fairly good, for an FPS game developed in less than a year and released in 1995. I had fun playing it. But the creations of the community today are miles better, and Final Doom (particularly Plutonia) has way more consistent level design.

[Nights]

38 minutes ago, forgettablepyromaniac said:

Word.

I like TNT the best, not that the original IWads and Plutionia are any bad, it's just what I find the most fun.

It's crazy how TNT gets bashed all the time and Plutonia gets such high praise. I haven't played Plutonia yet, so I wouldn't know. But I just played Hell Revealed and I loved it

[D4NUK1]

Plutonia levels are really well made and just offer that kinda of arcade and difficulty progressions that fit well with Doom 2 Gameplay. It's not that TNT it's not that bad, it's just like a  normal custom wad in comparation with the work and level desing of Plutonia.

[Rudolph]

My take on Doom 2 is that it could have definitely benefited from Doom 1's episodic format; whenever I play Doom II, I tend to get bored with it by MAP08 or MAP09 and as such I am nowhere near as familiar with the latter half of the game as I am with the former.

 

I know I can always warp to a specific level through the console, but this feels like cheating.

 

If you want a better take on the whole "Hell on Earth" premise, I highly recommend Doom 2 Reloaded and Hellbound.

[continuum.mid]

31 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

Plutonia levels are really well made and just offer that kinda of arcade and difficulty progressions that fit well with Doom 2 Gameplay. It's not that TNT it's not that bad, it's just like a  normal custom wad in comparation with the work and level desing of Plutonia.

TNT and Plutonia both feel like custom WADs to me, but for good reasons mostly. Actually, they pretty much are custom WADs, just that they were released commercially as IWADs.

 

TNT is like an early community project with its variety in both quality and styles of levels, while Plutonia is like a single-author WAD (in reality, two authors) with its more consistent style and narrative.

[Stupid Bunny]

My thought is simply that Plutonia is more consistent in its architecture and design, and probably better for a marathon playthrough (for pro players anyway).  TNT's worst levels are bad bordering on absurd but the best TNT maps are just so memorable, striking, atmospheric and unique in my mind, and the whole set just has that elusive "personality" that Plutonia doesn't quite reach.

 

Doom II is a mixed bag, I don't think anyone will dispute that--although as always, some people's most hated maps are others' very favorites (The Chasm, anyone?)

[smeghammer]

1 hour ago, Warp said:

After 3 years of putting it off and ragequitting, I finally conquered Doom 2 just minutes ago.

You're free to call me a newbie or just plain bad if you deem Doom 2 as "easy", idc honestly, I'm just happy I beat it.

For me, it wasn't the difficulty that was so off putting, but just the inconsistent level design and the dicketry that some of these levels contain. I don't think I'm coming back to Doom 2 for a bit.

 

I wouldn't worry about it. I don't recall if I finished it at all. And I got it on CD when it first came out...

 

It feels like I started playing megawads that had much better design and play way before I even came close to completing the game. Maybe hindsight is compressing the timeline, but it seems like I was playing things like P:AR and UAC Ultra from like forever ago (probably not though). I also think that Doom is more consistent than D2 (I know I tried really hard to complete that - kbd only! That was HARD and very satisfying...)

[P41R47]

2 hours ago, Warp said:

After 3 years of putting it off and ragequitting, I finally conquered Doom 2 just minutes ago.

You're free to call me a newbie or just plain bad if you deem Doom 2 as "easy", idc honestly, I'm just happy I beat it.

For me, it wasn't the difficulty that was so off putting, but just the inconsistent level design and the dicketry that some of these levels contain. I don't think I'm coming back to Doom 2 for a bit.

Congratulations!

And also, welcome to Doomworld!

Hope you have a great time over here!

:D

 

Doom 2, in comparison to Ultimate Doom, feels more convulted for me.

The maps throw away any possible resemblance to a real place, and instead, they went with a highly abstract design that favored gameplay.

Everything is designed to challenge the player. And design was implemented based on functionality and clear progression.

 

For that reason, people that first played Doom 2 tend to like more gameplay focused megawad.

And people that first played Ultimate Doom (or simple Doom before it had Thy Flesh Consumed) tend to prefer more narrative driven mapsets with good challenge.

Probably this is a generalization, but is also something i found after researching around here.

 

Vanilla mapping for Doom comes to almost perfection with Final Doom, branching on two really distinctive styles.

-TNT being more in line with UD narrative driven style and so, trying to go with more creepy maps, heavy enphasis on atmosphere and mood, and semi realistic areas for more inmersion with high detailing.

-Plutonia being more in line with Doom2 gameplay oriented style. That means that all on the map is designed for the challenge. But to difference it from Doom 2, the monsters are use as tools, thats why there are soo much number of the three most problematic monster: Chaingunners, Revenants and Arch-Viles.

 

For that reason, the community go with two distinctive style of maps for a long time.

And after 27 years of mapping, people reached a new standar that mixes both styles for a great experience. Giving players a high challenge on UV, a moderate one on HMP, and something like UV of Doom 2 on HNTR for those players that prefer to look and enjoy the maps and not challenge themselves to the limit. 

 

[Omniarch]

@Warp, you have every right to feel that way. I detested Doom II the first time I played it, coming off of high-quality PWADs and Ultimate Doom. The difference in quality and philosophy was jarring as all hell. Its grown on me since, however, though I still prefer it in small quantities.

 

4 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Doom 2, in comparison to Ultimate Doom, feels more convulted for me.

The maps throw away any possible resemblance to a real place, and instead, they went with a highly abstract design that favored gameplay.

Everything is designed to challenge the player. And design was implemented based on functionality and clear progression.

 

For that reason, people that first played Doom 2 tend to like more gameplay focused megawad.

And people that first played Ultimate Doom (or simple Doom before it had Thy Flesh Consumed) tend to prefer more narrative driven mapsets with good challenge.

Probably this is a generalization, but is also something i found after researching around here.

Preach it, brother! Your analysis is dead on, from my experience anyway. While I have come to deeply appreciate combat-centric wads (and even create some myself), narrative will always be king to me.

 

7 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Vanilla mapping for Doom comes to almost perfection with Final Doom, branching on two really distinctive styles.

-TNT being more in line with UD narrative driven style and so, trying to go with more creepy maps, heavy enphasis on atmosphere and mood, and semi realistic areas for more inmersion with high detailing.

-Plutonia being more in line with Doom2 gameplay oriented style. That means that all on the map is designed for the challenge. But to difference it from Doom 2, the monsters are use as tools, thats why there are soo much number of the three most problematic monster: Chaingunners, Revenants and Arch-Viles.

Well, now I know which IWAD I will be playing when I'm done with Plutonia! You'll make a TNT stan out of me yet!

[Nights]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

My take on Doom 2 is that it could have definitely benefited from Doom 1's episodic format; whenever I play Doom II, I tend to get bored with it by MAP08 or MAP09 and as such I am nowhere near as familiar with the latter half of the game as I am with the former.

 

I know I can always warp to a specific level through the console, but this feels like cheating.

 

If you want a better take on the whole "Hell on Earth" premise, I highly recommend Doom 2 Reloaded and Hellbound.

I've noticed the episodic point brought up in a lot of discussions about Doom 2, and I have to say I wholeheartedly agree with it. The "intermissions" every few maps just isn't enough of a real break in the monotony. If the game was broken up into 2 episodes and no more than that, like how Shadow Warrior is, I think the game would be much better for it. 

[GarrettChan]

11 minutes ago, Warp said:

I've noticed the episodic point brought up in a lot of discussions about Doom 2

I have to say whether Doom 2 is in episodic format has no impact at all, and I don't know why people keep saying this could benefit Doom 2.

 

Nobody points a gun in your head to force you play all 32 maps continuously or in one session, and every map is well designed enough for you to do pistol start to begin with. If you really don't like to play it continuously, take a break when the intermission shows up and do a pistol or whatsoever.

 

I found this one is pretty funny and maybe will fall into the "youtuber celebrity effect" in the future where just a bunch of *relatively good* Youtuber saying D2 and Final Doom should be in episode formats like UDoom.

 

Or you can disagree with me and hit me with some reasonable points about how this benefits Doom 2.

[Sunnyfruit]

3 hours ago, Warp said:

I enjoy Final Doom more than Doom 2, I don't know what it is. I think it's just because Final Doom is all new to me, but I find myself playing TNT (not Plutonia, because chaingunners) because I have more fun doing so

 

Maybe the music? TNT's music is some much more memorable than Doom 2. Doom 1 too, by the way.

[Azuris]

Don't worry, as you can see you are not alone.

I also like Doom much more than Doom 2.

Like the Levels more and also that there is more Variation in the used Colour Schemes.

Doom 2 is just sooooo brownish.

 

But i like the new Enemies of Doom 2.

 

About Final Doom, i really dislike Plutonia.

Tried it again last Month and it is just so annoying.

 

There are so much better Wads out there.

Every single Wad that is in the Unity Release.

 

Oh and don't forget about Doom 64.

[Nights]

22 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I have to say whether Doom 2 is in episodic format has no impact at all, and I don't know why people keep saying this could benefit Doom 2.

 

Nobody points a gun in your head to force you play all 32 maps continuously or in one session, and every map is well designed enough for you to do pistol start to begin with. If you really don't like to play it continuously, take a break when the intermission shows up and do a pistol or whatsoever.

 

I found this one is pretty funny and maybe will fall into the "youtuber celebrity effect" in the future where just a bunch of *relatively good* Youtuber saying D2 and Final Doom should be in episode formats like UDoom.

 

Or you can disagree with me and hit me with some reasonable points about how this benefits Doom 2.

I'm not gonna hit you with a 12 long page essay saying why it would benefit the game. Nothing is forcing me to play all 32 maps back to back in one sitting, and I didn't do that. All I'm saying is that Doom 2 would be better if they split the game into to episodes, like UDoom, which I prefer to Doom 2. It builds suspense on what the next part could hold, and there's no fatigue starting a new map after something like "The Chasm" or "Gotcha" or "Dead Simple" 

[Nights]

2 minutes ago, Azuris said:

Don't worry, as you can see you are not alone.

I also like Doom much more than Doom 2.

Like the Levels more and also that there is more Variation in the used Colour Schemes.

Doom 2 is just sooooo brownish.

 

But i like the new Enemies of Doom 2.

 

About Final Doom, i really dislike Plutonia.

Tried it again last Month and it is just so annoying.

 

There are so much better Wads out there.

Every single Wad that is in the Unity Release.

 

Oh and don't forget about Doom 64.

Trust me, Doom 64 is up there with my favorite Doom games. And while on the subject of other megawads, how is No Rest For the Living? I've heard so many good things about it, but I've never played it. I have the Unity ports on PC and PS4 and the BFG Edition on PS3, but I've just never gotten around to playing it.

[GarrettChan]

2 minutes ago, Warp said:

I'm not gonna hit you with a 12 long page essay saying why it would benefit the game. Nothing is forcing me to play all 32 maps back to back in one sitting, and I didn't do that. All I'm saying is that Doom 2 would be better if they split the game into to episodes, like UDoom, which I prefer to Doom 2. It builds suspense on what the next part could hold, and there's no fatigue starting a new map after something like "The Chasm" or "Gotcha" or "Dead Simple" 

I didn't say you have to hit me with a 12 pages essay, but you said nothing about why it would be beneficial to Doom2. That's why I wanted the reasons because so many people said this, but none of them actually gave any type of reasons.

 

I don't mind subjective reasons because everybody is subjective, but it has to be at least some reasoning behind this instead of just saying a concept with only emptiness in it.

[Nights]

7 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I didn't say you have to hit me with a 12 pages essay, but you said nothing about why it would be beneficial to Doom2. That's why I wanted the reasons because so many people said this, but none of them actually gave any type of reasons.

 

I don't mind subjective reasons because everybody is subjective, but it has to be at least some reasoning behind this instead of just saying a concept with only emptiness in it.

I did but ok then. Let's just agree to disagree, I don't want this to turn into a flame war.

[Doomkid]

I don't remember what I first thought other than "wow", and wondering who that impaled woman behind the IoS was (lol).

 

The late 90's are a little blurry to recall back to at this point but I must have loved it because I've replayed it about a million times since.

 

EDIT: I've replayed Doom 1 numerous times as well, but less so. It has better music, but I find most of the level design to be rather flat/uninteresting compared to some of the larger, more sprawling and more challenging maps offered by Doom 2. Not to mention the final boss being more than just "haha fire the bfg twice to win". Both are fantastic to me, I wouldn't be here mapping for 20 years otherwise.

[ReX]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

The late 90's are a little blurry to recall back to at this point ....

I, on the other hand, have a clear recollection of playing DooM 1, especially the Inferno episode. I took forever to play each episode, as it sometimes took me several days to complete even one map. By the time I reached Episode 3 it was summer and the room I played in would become hot. This was perfectly complemented by the hellish environment of the E3 maps. To this day, playing an E3 map instantly transports me back to that summer, hunched over a keyboard and sweating and cursing at those hellspawn.

[Rytrik]

2 hours ago, Warp said:

I'm not gonna hit you with a 12 long page essay saying why it would benefit the game. Nothing is forcing me to play all 32 maps back to back in one sitting, and I didn't do that. All I'm saying is that Doom 2 would be better if they split the game into to episodes, like UDoom, which I prefer to Doom 2. It builds suspense on what the next part could hold, and there's no fatigue starting a new map after something like "The Chasm" or "Gotcha" or "Dead Simple" 

 

The game just gets started after Dead Simple.... it would be a major letdown to have THAT be the end of the 'episode', then have the next episode start on Tricks and Traps. Total momentum killer.

[Nights]

4 minutes ago, Rytrik said:

 

The game just gets started after Dead Simple.... it would be a major letdown to have THAT be the end of the 'episode', then have the next episode start on Tricks and Traps. Total momentum killer.

I used Dead Simple as an example level, I really don't think that cutting the episode off at map 7 would be good. I honestly think that ending the "episode" after Downtown would be better, or after like one of those slog maps 

[P41R47]

31 minutes ago, Warp said:

I used Dead Simple as an example level, I really don't think that cutting the episode off at map 7 would be good. I honestly think that ending the "episode" after Downtown would be better, or after like one of those slog maps 

I would went with unbalanced approach.

All episode one up to map11

Episode two from map12 to map20.

And map21 to 30 for hell.

 

Two secret maps, and both consecutive to each other is what killed the ''secret reward'' for me.

Still, the secret maps on Final Doom are just awesome for sure.

[Azuris]

7 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

I didn't say you have to hit me with a 12 pages essay, but you said nothing about why it would be beneficial to Doom2. That's why I wanted the reasons because so many people said this, but none of them actually gave any type of reasons.

 

I don't mind subjective reasons because everybody is subjective, but it has to be at least some reasoning behind this instead of just saying a concept with only emptiness in it.

 

As the Episodes are more or less themed, it is easier to jump right into a Part of the Game you are in the Mood for.

Also the Endscreens are giving you a bit of Motivation to Progress further.

The Map with your next Location is also a nice little Thingy.

Those three Points makes that the Game doesn't feel like a Marathon, even if it is the same Amount of Maps.

So it is something psychological.

 

My personal Opinion about the brownyness of Doom 2 could have been different maybe, because i could jump in easy in a hellish Part and the brown would not have burned into my Brain.

 

(Just to clarify, i like Doom 2, we are only talking about the Parts i/we did not like :P)

 

8 hours ago, Warp said:

Trust me, Doom 64 is up there with my favorite Doom games. And while on the subject of other megawads, how is No Rest For the Living? I've heard so many good things about it, but I've never played it. I have the Unity ports on PC and PS4 and the BFG Edition on PS3, but I've just never gotten around to playing it.

 

Hmm i have never played it, maybe something should also do haha

Beeing on PC only and using my old Version again and again i somehow forgott about it.

 

 

[Orchid87]

People give Doom 2 too much flak here. Let's check the facts.

 

1) There was no better FPS game in 1994 and 1995 period and that says something. I remember reviewers gushing over Dark Forces but it didn't age well.

 

2) New enemies give the much needed variety. Chaingunners, hell knights, arachnotrons, revenants, mancubi add to the game. Fuck the pain elementals though.

 

3) Super Shotgun is another perfect addition. I'd say it should probably be introduced in a later level, for how powerful it is, but this doesn't break the game.

 

4) As much as I love KDITD, replaying Doom 1 without these additions feels stale.

 

5) Doom II introduced much loved American McGee maps.

 

6) Final Doom arrived in 1996. After Duke Nukem 3D and merely a month before Quake shareware. Without any additions to the arsenal and bestiary, FD is nothing more than a couple of community map packs. By 1996 there were some free PWADs that are just as good, like Memento Mori. We might as well compare Ultimate Doom to some great recent community PWADs and declare that UD is worse. But we won't because UD is the classic, just as Doom 2.

 

7) Episodic structure has a disadvantage in that every starting level in an episode has to be dumbed down for a pistol start, as opposed to only one level in Doom 2. Also, Doom 1 episodes are too damn short.

 

8) People dislike some of Sandy's late game levels like Doom 1 didn't suffer from the same problem. At least his Doom 2 maps were better textured and didn't suffer from Tom Hall wolfensteinsque mapping as much, except for maps 31 and 32 obviously.

[Omniarch]

14 minutes ago, Orchid87 said:

People give Doom 2 too much flak here. Let's check the facts.

 

1) There was no better FPS game in 1994 and 1995 period and that says something. I remember reviewers gushing over Dark Forces but it didn't age well.

 

2) New enemies give the much needed variety. Chaingunners, hell knights, arachnotrons, revenants, mancubi add to the game. Fuck the pain elementals though.

 

3) Super Shotgun is another perfect addition. I'd say it should probably be introduced in a later level, for how powerful it is, but this doesn't break the game.

 

4) As much as I love KDITD, replaying Doom 1 without these additions feels stale.

I agree with all these points. Doom 2 is mechanically the better of the two, this is beyond doubt. I also partially agree with point 5, simply because I personally like McGee's contributions.

 

I disagree with point six. At the very least, one has to admit that Plutonia was a revolution in level design within the Doom community, and left a greater mark on history than any of its contemporaries, even though it adds nothing to the base mechanics.

 

I strongly disagree with point seven, however, mainly because I always play from pistol start, since almost all Doom maps are balanced that way. For me, the problem with D2's structure has nothing to do with being 'forced' to play 32 maps back-to-back. I don't even play D1 episodes that way, let alone entire megawads.

 

The problem is a thematic one. D2 doesn't have the same feeling of visual progression as D1, nor the same sense of place. Most maps feels like total abstractions, and those that try to be something else (MAP13) tend to run into problems. This is of course totally subjective, and I actually think D2's design sensibilities (especially Romero's) are actually far more interesting than D1's, mainly due to far greater use of the third dimension and a generally experimental attitude. Frankly, the main thing that drags the game down are the monotonous visuals.

 

Point eight is also fair, though I don't really agree with most of the criticism leveled (heh) against Sandy's (regular) maps in either game (except Limbo, fuck Limbo).