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Karl515

Do you consider mouselook as a cheat?

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I want to know what your opinion is about mouselook. I personally don't see it as a cheat, as it's very annoying to shoot monsters above your head. But some maps use shootable buttons and that might ruin the flow of the map. 

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Yes if the map is vanilla or Boom.

 

However, of course, you can play however you want, but just don't comment on the map is broken when you don't really follow the rules.

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Mouselook can, on somewhat rare occasions, allow for sequence breaks in maps that are not designed with it in mind. Whether or not that causes softlocks is a different question, but if you want to play with freelook, it's usually a good idea to ask yourself whether or not you are supposed to be able to reach a shootswitch at that time...

 

What makes mouselook a disqualifying feature for speedruns in most cases is that it allows you to hit targets in fights that would be way harder or impossible to reach for some length of time when you compare it to what the autoaim would do if you didn't override it...

 

All things considered, mouselook is "breaking" in rare cases, but for a somewhat skilled player it tends to lead to many small advantages of the course of an entire map.

 

That being said, it isn't "cheating" if you don't compete in some official manner, because who are you going to cheat if you play for your own amusement and nothing else, but take a look at doom2 map 30 and tell me mouselook doesn't make the icon of sin easier by an order of magnitudes...

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I barely consider it unless it lets you hit a switch or helps you take out monsters that you normally can't or seeing stuff that you aren't supposed to until later. But I fon't think its really a cheat

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3 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

What makes mouselook a disqualifying feature for speedruns in most cases is that it allows you to hit targets in fights that would be way harder or impossible to reach for some length of time when you compare it to what the autoaim would do if you didn't override it...

I've recorded a few casual demos back in the day with mouselook in GLBoom+. It's purely cosmetic in that port while recording and does not affect or override autoaim. Having said that, it obviously makes walking down steep stairs, downward platforming, or shooting enemies below you easier. But so does increasing your FOV, using the advanced HUD for more vertical screen space, having a crosshair etc.

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9 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

That being said, it isn't "cheating" if you don't compete in some official manner, because who are you going to cheat if you play for your own amusement and nothing else

 

I feel like it boils down to this in a lot of ways.  Mouselook might indeed cheapen the experience of certain levels (again, the example of MAP30), but it's not going to matter unless you, the player, then go and complain to the wad author "0/5 was able to beat in 5 seconds with freelook" when you were warned in advance that freelook will break the map.  There was a recent thread thoroughly litigating the subject.

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3 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

I've recorded a few casual demos back in the day with mouselook in GLBoom+.

That's fair, but I'm generally going under the assumption that people use a port like GZDoom (simply because it's the one most people tend to grab), where it's not necessarily "cosmetic", but actually "functional", which puts it leagues above any quality of life feature PrBoom-plus offers.

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it depends of the type of mouselook. If its the mouselook that allows you to see up and down, but the aiming is still controlled my the autoaim, isnt a cheat. But if its the mouselook with aiming with the mouse, yes, you can kill IoS very easily with mouse aiming.

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in my opinion while it does allow you to play DooM in a more modernized fashion unless you are using it in a vanilla only run or something like that it's not cheating because while there is an autoaim you have to be so precise with it that it just makes it a chore to even shoot an enemy above you. there are other mods like d4d, d4t, brutal wolfenstein, and samsara which require or recommend mouselook. sorry if anyone disagrees with me it is my opinion.

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10 minutes ago, Yeethawed64dot7z said:

sorry if anyone disagrees with me it is my opinion.

 

We are preparing your crucifix as I speak

 

No jk I probably agree with you actually, like I do think mouselook confers a slight advantage to the player that uses it but it's never going to be as gamebreaking as jumping and crouching, and...again, I don't see the sense in policing how other people play if it's outside of some kind of competition or tournament or anything like that.  We might as well shit on anyone who plays ITYTD (also the subject of a recent thread now that I think about it).

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ik i shouldve mentioned this earlier but now that we have the technology we do we can make doom look better and break some of the limits that came with the original source like source ports can now support dehacked features, zscript, decorate, bigger maps (nuts3.wad big and getting bigger) and 3d models. why would mouselook really be a cheat when ever you are trying to hit an elevated enemy is a pain without mouselook if you are like me.

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If you use freelook to shoot a switch high up or against Icon of Sin, yes it's a cheat and can potentially break things.

 

If you just use it to more accurately chaingun snipe or aim vertically for enemies, it's a bit of a gray area but I say it's not a cheat in that context.

Edited by Nevander

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If theres an Icon of Sin fight with traditional design in mind and you decide to just aim at the ''hole'' of the IoS, then yes, I do consider that a cheat. I love playing with mouselook yet I know Doom design well enough to know when something was made on purpose for traditional players and I try to do it the traditional way. So, let's say there's a shootable switch about 5 meters above me, I could probably just go back a bit and aim at it, easy. But I know thats not the way the mapper intended it to be, so I follow the usual route until I reach that switch by clean means.

 

Yes, I'm a pure boi.

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I think it depends on the map. I personally don't like mouselook on if I am playing any of the original Doom maps or maps that were designed in a fashion where you don't need it (or in some cases, should have it off). I basically only have it on if, and only if, it's required, otherwise it stays off. But it's basically only cheating if having it on and being able to shoot things you're not supposed to yet may break the game. 

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Depending on how you prefer to play the game, or your reason to play, it may or may not be cheating. Speedruns, yeah probably. "Original release" playthroughs, maybe. Maps/mods, depends on what the creator intended or if it does or doesn't break the game. 

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Hmmm.. The majority of the posts says that it is cheating map-wise. How about gameplay-wise? Like focusing your firepower on a specific enemy instead of the nearest demon. OR shooting a chaingunner that can shoot you right above your head.

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15 minutes ago, Karl515 said:

Hmmm.. The majority of the posts says that it is cheating map-wise. How about gameplay-wise? Like focusing your firepower on a specific enemy instead of the nearest demon. OR shooting a chaingunner that can shoot you right above your head.

Did you not read my previous post, or some of the ones that followed...?

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If it gives you a substantial advantage, it is cheating. But there is no problem with cheating in singleplayer, non competitive games. Just play however you like. My first ever Doom II playthrough was done with iddqd and I didn't try to justify it because it was my own business.

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1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Did you not read my previous post, or some of the ones that followed...?

Oh I read it. I just want other's opinion as well.

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On 2/22/2021 at 2:36 PM, Karl515 said:

I want to know what your opinion is about mouselook. I personally don't see it as a cheat, as it's very annoying to shoot monsters above your head. But some maps use shootable buttons and that might ruin the flow of the map. 

Nah, but I think jumping is a cheat in the classic dooms. (for example, final doom doom1 doom 2 hexen, etc) but not in doom mods, this is my opinion by the way.

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If the map was designed against it, yes.

 

Otherwise play how you want.

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Leaving gzdoom wads and stuff where freelook is considered to be a default setting out of the picture, if you mean cheat in the sense that it gives the player an advantage that isn't attainable in the normal limits of the game, then yes, I'd say it is. People make a lot of bones about shootable switches and stuff but I think there's way more broken stuff about it, particularly the ability to fire the rocket launcher and BFG into horizontal surfaces completely changes the way those weapons are supposed to work. With RL you can splash the floor and hurt enemies even if you miss, and shooting the BFG ball into the floor to proc the hitscan whenever you want can't be compared to default aim where aiming the ball precisely at monsters and walls is a core mechanic and missing a ball will ruin the shot. It's not really a big deal how people prefer to play casually, but anyone trying to claim that freelook mechanics are basically equivalent or don't give a large gameplay advantage are clowning.

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doesn't the BFG ignore autoaim and manual aim in GZDOOM? been a while since I tried it though.

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Not cheat, but:

 

If mouselook=on, then set autoaim=0 for max pleasure.

 

Now I play only online and is better on survival and coop modes.

 

On DM, mouselook=on and autoaim=0 may will against you.

 

If you use software renderer, mouselook=0 and autoaim=0 may limit you on certain cases.

 

Personally, I have: 

bind o "autoaim 0" 

bind i "autoaim 5000" ( if I remember right, 35 is the max on gzdoom )

 

So I can change when needed. (high caco over your head I change to autoaim to 5000 because mouselook will limit the aim, for example)

 

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I've been playing shooters since Wolf3D. I like mouselook, and I'm not going back no matter how the mapper "wants" me to play. Mouselook on, autoaim off. When I design my maps, I play with mouselook, and if I really want to have a shootable switch, I'll put it where it can only be shot from where I want it to be shot.

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One thing not yet mentioned is that mouselook also allows for vertical rocket jumping, which can break many maps given the height you can gain from it

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not a cheat but a first step

i dont like mouse look but when im showing doom to someone activate it because its easier for them to play this way and if they get deep enouth into doom then they may decide if they want it or not

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On 2/22/2021 at 5:36 PM, Karl515 said:

I want to know what your opinion is about mouselook. I personally don't see it as a cheat, as it's very annoying to shoot monsters above your head. But some maps use shootable buttons and that might ruin the flow of the map. 

mouselook can make the game easier in some places (like the city levels or that stair part in final doom that's a bitch to play) but honestly unless the map uses the lack of freelook for secrets.

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