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Murdoch

Conspiracy Theorists Make My Brain Hurt

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Yeah that's fair.  And also there's still been far less petty name-calling futility into page 8 than I might've expected from a thread like this (which isn't to say there hasn't been any) so good on everyone for that

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On 2/27/2021 at 8:44 AM, Gokuma said:

Everyone here overestimates the importance of their opinion...   Except me.  I have the best facts, opinions, and ideas.

 

Speaking of cancel culture...   How about instead of trying to get someone fired because what they said hurt your butt, how about canceling someone truly horrible like Monsanto?   Boycott them forever and also General Mills until they do something about the horrific levels of glyphosate in Cheerios.    Why isn't that front page news?   There's only the occasional commercials by lawyers who want to cash in on a class action lawsuit or settlement for lawnworkers.   But who knows how many cases of pediatric cancer are the fault of glyphosate loaded Cheerioes people think is a good healthy food staple for their little kids.   Or I don't know.   Maybe some people like cancer and taking their kid to chemo treatments and watching their hair fall out.  Different strokes for different folks.

 

Pro-Tip: Honey Nut Cheerios only have somewhat lower levels because they're over 50% sugar.

 

Realistically, glyphosate does not cause cancer. Especially so in the amounts found in food residues.

 

The whole “glyphosate causes cancer” thing came about due to the WHO listing it as a “possible human carcinogen” which is the same category as “consumption of red meat” (no joke, look it up - group 2A).

 

So pretty much what they are saying is spraying it everyday gives you the same risk of developing cancer as eating a steak everyday. To put that in context, I don’t know many people that are worried about getting cancer from their hot dog even though processed meats are in the “known to be carcinogenic” group 1 category :-P

 

Also, the levels of pesticides / herbicides found in food (at least in first and second world countries with regulations on residues) are so low that it really isn’t a concern even if it was to be scientifically proven that it could cause cancer in the people who apply it all day everyday (and that is still disputed).

 

Don’t get me wrong, I strongly dislike all multinational companies as they have huge incentives to no be forth coming with damaging information on their products and have no doubt Monsanto definitely has done some seriously shady shit over the years but glyphosate is by far one of the safest herbicides we have :-)

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Pardon me while I try to put this train back on the rails: I think one of the most astoundingly stupid revelations regarding the spread of conspiracy theories across the internet and human stupidity is the QAnon stuff. I swear, 4chan shitposters and their ability to organise ways to manipulate dunderheads into believing their bullshit and mainstream media picking it up is both hilarious and exhausting to watch. I guess until the day literally everyone is Terminally Online™ once the internet has woven itself into every aspect of our lives and 4chan's nonsense becomes basic common knowledge, morons will continue to fall for their antics. Whoever came up with the QAnon joke must be utterly beside themself seeing just how far the thing has gotten out of hand to the point that even some elected US officials are taking it seriously.

 

What a time to be alive.

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17 hours ago, dei_eldren said:

If they do, maybe you should one day talk with one and ask why they actually think what they think.

 

 

Interesting that you seem to automatically assume I have not. Well, I have. And they are among some of the most close-minded people I have ever had the displeasure to talk to. Now I have changed my opinions on things many times when being presented with evidence to the contrary. In fact when I was younger I was a sucker for all that Alternative History nonsense. The mystery nut in me gobbled that up good and proper. The first introduction was the idea that the Great Sphinx was eroded by rain water and therefore must be much older than suspected. However, some time later I read a book that pointed out that the effect was caused by wet sand leaching salts out of the soft layers of the limestone, causing it to flake off. The Sphinx spent a lot of it's life up to it's neck in sand. Confirmation is given by the head itself which has never been covered - only wind blown sand erosion, no signs of undulation. And well, I got over it. Clinging to easily disproven ideas is a sign of weakness in one's thinking. You tell a Flat Earther that you have seen the sun actually sink with your own two eyes and the moon in the sky at the same time as the sun, two basic naked eye observations that irredeemably slaughter their hypothesis, and you get mumblings about refraction and perspective and other nonsense. You tell the clowns that think fake snow is being dumped on Texas that such an operation is completely implausible due to the sheer scale and power required (not to mention that SOMEONE would have seen something even if it were true) and it will fall on deaf ears. 

 

The concept of being on the inside of some special knowledge has rendered many people beyond reason. They lash out, insult you, automatically assume you swallow the government and media's crap wholesale, call you a sheep etc. Their lack of originality for insults is rather sad. I concede that some conspiracies like JFK are harder to definitively bust. Oswald being setup is plausible, and such a plan could be enacted with a relatively small number of participants, lessening the chance of it leaking out. However, if you believe the Flat Earth, Fake Snow and the more crazy, obviously wrong stuff then in my opinion you are making a solid case that you are likely beyond reason.

 

9 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

Whoever came up with the QAnon joke must be utterly beside themself seeing just how far the thing has gotten out of hand to the point that even some elected US officials are taking it seriously.

 

What a time to be alive.

 

Yeah the ship has well and truly sailed on "Just a prank bro". Even if they did come forward, it would make little difference.

Edited by Murdoch

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@Murdoch What are you referring to when you say you used to be into that Alternate History nonsense? Asking because by my understanding, Alternate History is basically historically backed/based fan-fiction which are fun to read/listen to/think about but otherwise just fiction. Like "Imagine a world if Germany won World War 1/2", "Imagine a world where the dinosaurs never went extinct.", "Imagine a world where the British Colony of India never split up into Pakistan, India and Bangladesh after the British rule ended." You know, fun to think about and has some roots in actual history but at the end of the day is just fiction. The example you gave about the sphinx does not sound like historical short stories so I'm confused what you are referring to by Alternate History.

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14 hours ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

1015485.jpg?yocs=17_1c_
 

 

Gee, mate, that is a pimpy ride ya got there! Yo, have space for one more, plus two babes on the backseats?

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13 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

What are you referring to when you say you used to be into that Alternate History nonsense

 

It's a catch all term for a wide range of hypotheses that suggest the accepted history of man is either majorly wrong or at least missing significant chunks. The primary one is the idea of an advanced sea faring civilization predating any other known ones currently. Now history is an evolving thing. We should be open to changing our perception of it when sufficient evidence comes to light.

 

A couple of cases that come to mind are Troy being seemingly real and Columbus not being the first European to discover America. These are now generally accepted, as they should be. However some of the stuff i fell for like the Sphinx case falls apart when one considers the total evidence; that there is an alternative explanation for the undulation and how the Sphinx fits with known Egyptian history and culture. Given the latter, it stands to reason the Egyptian explanation is more probable. It was a good lesson for me to consider all points on a topic before forming a conclusion and trying not to let my bias guide my thinking. People who start with a conclusion and work backwards from there can be very convincing and its easy to be taken in.

Edited by Murdoch

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11 hours ago, DooM Bear said:

So pretty much what they are saying is spraying it everyday gives you the same risk of developing cancer as eating a steak everyday.

tbf that is really unhealthy

 

17 hours ago, northivanastan said:

The concept of being on the inside of some special knowledge has rendered many people beyond reason. They lash out, insult you, automatically assume you swallow the government and media's crap wholesale, call you a sheep etc. Their lack of originality for insults is rather sad. I concede that some conspiracies like JFK are harder to definitively bust. Oswald being setup is plausible, and such a plan could be enacted with a relatively small number of participants, lessening the chance of it leaking out. However, if you believe the Flat Earth, Fake Snow and the more crazy, obviously wrong stuff then in my opinion you are making a solid case that you are likely beyond reason. 

from what i've seen, it really depends on the conspiracy theory. some of them can really bring up thoughtful, open-minded discussion, while others, like the ones you mentioned, yeah no lol

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1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

 

It's a catch all term for a wide range if hypotheses that suggest the accepted chronology is either majorly wrong or at least missing significant chunks. The primary one is the idea of an advanced sea faring civilization predating any other known ones currently. Now history is an evolving thing. We should be open to changing our perception of it when sufficient evidence comes to light.

 

A couple of cases that come to mind are Troy being seemingly real and Columbus not being the first European to discover America. These are now generally accepted, as they should be. However some of the stuff i fell for like the Sphinx case falls apart when one considers the total evidence; that there is an alternative explanation for the undulation and how the Sphinx fits with known Egyptian history and culture. Given the latter, it stands to reason the Egyptian explanation is more probable. It was a good lesson for me to consider all points on a topic before forming a conclusion and trying not to let my bias guide my thinking. People who start with a conclusion and work backwards from there can be very convincing and its easy to be taken in.

 

Thanks for explaining that to me. I did not know about this Alternate History. Sounds interesting though less fun than historical fanfiction.

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6 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

 

Thanks for explaining that to me. I did not know about this Alternate History. Sounds interesting though less fun than historical fanfiction.

 

It is an interesting topic. The idea that there is more to history that has been lost, quite big things, is fascinating and exciting. But sadly when one cross checks the things stated by it's proponents, they almost invariably come up short, having misinterpreted something or outright lied about it in order to further their own theories and agendas. Another great Sherlock Holmes quote comes to mind - "When a fact appears to be opposed to a long train of deductions, it invariably proves to be capable of bearing some other interpretation". One should keep it in mind when considering things that would appear to contradict established and documented history.

 

There is indeed much we still do not know about history, and I hope there will always be at least one more mystery, one more story waiting to be told out there. Knowing everything would suck. But we must let the evidence guide us, not what we hope to be true.

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22 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

Whoever came up with the QAnon joke must be utterly beside themself seeing just how far the thing has gotten out of hand to the point that even some elected US officials are taking it seriously. 

 

My initial thought was that it was started by Sacha Baron Cohen, and he was going to reveal footage of himself creating it in the new Borat movie (post-credits or something).

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12 hours ago, roadworx said:

tbf that is really unhealthy

 

If you ate nothing but steak all day every day, I would definitely have to agree with you XD

 

Although I think you would probably die from not being able to poop due to the lack of fibre in your diet well before the cancer ever gets you XD

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On 2/27/2021 at 2:56 PM, Biodegradable said:

So when people aren't drudging up old debunked conspiracies from 7 years ago, they're just giving even older conspiracies a new paint job. The lack of originality among conspiracy whackjobs is simply outrageous, I say!

 

I guess at least the light bulb conspiracy can be put to rest then, as -by now- technologically irrelevant?

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26 minutes ago, Maes said:

 

I guess at least the light bulb conspiracy can be put to rest then, as -by now- technologically irrelevant?

 

Give it time, I am sure someone will resurrect it for LEDs.

 

It is interesting to note that this one has a grain of sort of truth given the oddities of some recorded lifespans of older bulbs, even if the newer designs are still overall better when you consider every factor.

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On 2/27/2021 at 4:21 AM, NoXion said:

Witness, by contrast, how when conspiracy theories like QAnon make predictions like "The Storm" and turn out to be utterly wrong. Or when a bunch of Flat Earthers spent tens of thousands of dollars on a ring laser gyroscope that ended up demonstrating what we already know about the Earth's rotation.

 

Missed this comment earlier. This was just too damned funny, all that money wasted. There is a YouTuber SciManDan who does various science related stuff included conspiracy debunking. The voice quote of Bob Knodel (or Noodle as I call him) saying "A... 15 degree per hour drift" has become a meme on his channel. He runs the clip pretty much every time the rotation of the Earth comes up and says "Thanks Bob." Makes me laugh every time. Yes, I am easily amused.

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On 2/26/2021 at 7:34 AM, Szymanski said:

I've only encountered peoples speculation on the location, North Africa, Doggerland or Hy Brasil. 

 

Regarding Atlantis, yes it was an allegory written by Plato to demonstrate a philosophical point. He was a philosopher after all, and never made any pretense of being a historian. The principle inspirations appear to be Minoan Crete and Santorini. Minoan Crete was an advanced for the time civilization that flourised between about 2700 - 1420BC. Santorini was known as Thera back in the day, and around 1600BC a volcanic eruption nearly wiped it off the map entirely. Even today you can see it was probably roughly circular before it blew apart, and one is forced to wonder if it inspired Plato's description of Atlantis being circular with concentric rings. It is believed this may have been the trigger for the eventual downfall of the Minoan Civilization. This all happened long before Plato's time, but stories of that time came down to the Greeks as oral history and Plato likely picked up on them.

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49 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

Regarding Atlantis, yes it was an allegory written by Plato to demonstrate a philosophical point. He was a philosopher after all, and never made any pretense of being a historian. The principle inspirations appear to be Minoan Crete and Santorini. Minoan Crete was an advanced for the time civilization that flourised between about 2700 - 1420BC. Santorini was known as Thera back in the day, and around 1600BC a volcanic eruption nearly wiped it off the map entirely. Even today you can see it was probably roughly circular before it blew apart, and one is forced to wonder if it inspired Plato's description of Atlantis being circular with concentric rings. It is believed this may have been the trigger for the eventual downfall of the Minoan Civilization. This all happened long before Plato's time, but stories of that time came down to the Greeks as oral history and Plato likely picked up on them.

Agreed, it's interesting to talk about and shouldn't be thrown on the conspiracy heap. Afterall 'Conspiracy theory' is just a slogan to dissuade discussion. 

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1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

 

Give it time, I am sure someone will resurrect it for LEDs.

 

It is interesting to note that this one has a grain of sort of truth given the oddities of some recorded lifespans of older bulbs, even if the newer designs are still overall better when you consider every factor.

 

Well, conventional lightbulbs can last a lot longer if you underdrive them, but at the cost of light output and luminous efficacy. I remember from some data sheets that while light output goes up -more or less- with the square root of applied voltage, life decreases according to its fourth power of voltage, for a given filament construction. Ouch, quite a tradeoff there, no conspiracy actually needed -other than good old engineering to a price/bill of materials- ;-)

 

For the rest, IMO the real "conspiracy" (or rather, hoax) is in the actual realized life of LED and CFL lamp replacements: they come nowhere near the advertised figures of 10.000, 30.000 or 100.000 hours. I don't know exactly how they came up with these figures, but the electronics in their bases will go ElectroBOOM (or poof) waaaaay before the actual light-emitting element fails. And at least with some kinds of CFLs you can have separately replaceable tubes/hardened ballasts/electronics. With LEDs nope, everything is "hitched" to everything else in the complete lamp, and often in the luminaire itself.

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20 minutes ago, Szymanski said:

Agreed, it's interesting to talk about and shouldn't be thrown on the conspiracy heap. Afterall 'Conspiracy theory' is just a slogan to dissuade discussion. 

 

Oh yes, it is definitely not a conspiracy at all. Personally, I believe that most myths likely have some element of truth in them, even if that truth bares little resemblance to what actually happened. For instance I have wondered if maybe all the stories of wizards, sorcerers and other types were just people who mastered aspects of chemistry and the like before it was fully understood and documented, and then the story got exaggerated as the less informed locals told stories of the crazy eccentric man whose home lights up at night with funny colours and random explosions.

 

18 minutes ago, Maes said:

For the rest, IMO the real "conspiracy" (or rather, hoax) is in the actual realized life of LED and CFL lamp replacements: they come nowhere near the advertised figures of 10.000, 30.000 or 100.000 hours. I don't know exactly how they came up with these figures, but the electronics in their bases will go ElectroBOOM (or poof) waaaaay before the actual light-emitting element fails. And at least with some kinds of CFLs you can have separately replaceable tubes/hardened ballasts/electronics. With LEDs nope, everything is "hitched" to everything else in the complete lamp, and often in the luminaire itself.

 

Ah, interesting. I keep meaning to learn more about electronics, it's on "The List". "The List" is very, very big.

Edited by Murdoch

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9 minutes ago, Maes said:

For the rest, IMO the real "conspiracy" (or rather, hoax) is in the actual realized life of LED and CFL lamp replacements: they come nowhere near the advertised figures of 10.000, 30.000 or 100.000 hours. I don't know exactly how they came up with these figures, but the electronics in their bases will go ElectroBOOM (or poof) waaaaay before the actual light-emitting element fails. And at least with some kinds of CFLs you can have separately replaceable tubes/hardened ballasts/electronics. With LEDs nope, everything is "hitched" to everything else in the complete lamp, and often in the luminaire itself.

It's the heat that lowers the lifetime, if you can effectively heatsink the circuitry (or move the control elsewhere) the LED light will last a long time. Semiconductor lifetime degrades with temperature however capacitor lifetime (electrolytics use a wet electrolite which dries over time) can be far lower (eg 1000 hours) and also degrades with heat. Modern LED's are very efficient but they are far more difficult to recycle.

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Yeah, I know about the importance of heat dissipation (...or not) in electronics MTBF. The problem specifically with light bulbs is that they try to shoehorn/retrofit a fundamentally different technology, with completely different cooling and power demands (e.g. LEDs would be happier with straight DC, CFLs are happy with AC provided they have adequate ballasting etc.), into bulb holders/bases designed for incandescents, and usually with the same shape/size constraints.

 

Hence the warnings not to use LEDs/CFLs into "completely enclosed luminaires", the awkward shapes, the ridiculous designs (esp. automotive LED retrofits are the worst) and, ultimately, the paradox of their premature death by heat, even though they're supposed to waste less energy overall O_o

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Not sure why I decided to catch up to all this dross - the levels of delusion, hypocrisy and hyperbole are through the roof and all these smarmy attempts at sarcasm only confirm what I was saying. Have fun in your echo chamber.

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6 minutes ago, frag enabler said:

Not sure why I decided to catch up to all this dross - the levels of delusion, hypocrisy and hyperbole are through the roof and all these smarmy attempts at sarcasm only confirm what I was saying. Have fun in your echo chamber.

 

I strongly suspect that the irony in your post will be forever lost on you.

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Wasn't there some studies that showed that providing factual evidence to conspiracy theorists only further affirms what they believe?

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14 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Wasn't there some studies that showed that providing factual evidence to conspiracy theorists only further affirms what they believe?

 

I'd believe it. As I have said, bias is an integral part of human psychology. We all have them. We are if nothing else creatures habit. Add paranoia, the thrill of being "in the know" and maybe a side order of a sense of persecution by the "sheep" to the mix and it's really not surprising that any efforts to present an alternative point of view only steels their resolve.

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55 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Wasn't there some studies that showed that providing factual evidence to conspiracy theorists only further affirms what they believe?

 

As an old Chinese proverb said: "You cannot wake up someone who's pretending to be asleep".

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2 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Wasn't there some studies that showed that providing factual evidence to conspiracy theorists only further affirms what they believe?

 

I have never heard that before!

 

I hope that is one of those “fake facts” but it really does feel like something that would be real XD

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3 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Wasn't there some studies that showed that providing factual evidence to conspiracy theorists only further affirms what they believe?

That's not just true for conspiracy theories, it's true for all sorts of beliefs, especially if one forms part of their identity around them as a conspiracy theorist would. It's called the backfire effect, I believe. It affects everyone and it takes some effort to defeat.

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