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HombreSal

Is playing the original/vanilla iwads without infinite height cheating?

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I won central processing (TNT map 20) today, but only because the spectres' infinite height in that round damaging floor area didn't block my way and I ran over them. Otherwise I would've died for sure.

 

Well... was that cheating?

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21 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

It's not playing as intended and using an advantage that shouldn't be available in normal gameplay, so, yes. But play how you enjoy the most. :P

i always play with that off and as vannilla as possible, unless wad creator leaves specific instructions

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Just now, Orchid87 said:

What's up with all these threads lately? Do we need justification for the ways we play Doom?

lol i have noticed an influx of these threads.

and no.

PEOPLE PLAY DOOM HOW YOU WANT

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Is it cheating or just playing Doom in modified form?

 

I personally think that cheating gives player clear advantage compared to normal gameplay while using mods like removing infinite height mainly just changes how the gameplay works without giving clear advantage in most cases. Things like freelook or jumping have much more potential breaking the balance and being cheating than modifying just how the game's physics work. I mean, playing vanilla IWAD maps with PrBoom's Boom/MBF compatibility or even with GZDoom is not the same experience as playing with Chocolate Doom but it isn't cheating just because it is different.

 

Cheating requires clearly breaking the game's balance and small gameplay changes like removing infinite height or freelook (when used with caution) are usually at most just assists that can help with Doom's accessibility.

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Because surfing over monster's heads, being able to skip entire maps by a single jump (lol map07), being able to aim at sniper-position monsters with freelook despite how autoaim would normally enforce a crowd of monsters closer to you to be shot first, being able to crouch to avoid any fireball you want, etc is totally not a clear advantage.

 

Again, I'm an advocate for playing how you want, but these small extra features are very much a gamechanger.

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Well, according to my theory, it's basically "0th cafegory of cheating". To clarify, here's my classification:

0th category: Exploiting built-in game or features (or features added by source ports) that are regularly and visibly available (i.e. through menu or specific controls) to have advantage over how the game was intented do play

1st category: Using built-in game cheats (which were meant to be "cheats" and were somehow hidden, i.e. you must know how to activate them)

2nd category: Exploiting game or level design bugs

3rd category: Hacking or modifying the game, using external tools (trainers) etc.

 

More examples of 0th category of cheating: Jumping, crouching, exploiting freelook, rocket-jumping, seeing teleport lines marked with blue line on automap

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34 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

Because surfing over monster's heads, being able to skip entire maps by a single jump (lol map07), being able to aim at sniper-position monsters with freelook despite how autoaim would normally enforce a crowd of monsters closer to you to be shot first, being able to crouch to avoid any fireball you want, etc is totally not a clear advantage.

 

Small changes to the gameplay often give small situational advantages, that is pretty much unavoidable so these should be used with caution freelook being good example of this despite having also some disadvantages. Removing infinite height also does give player some potentially gamebreaking advantages but also comes with it's own disadvantages. But jumping and crouching have no real disadvantages and are little to nothing of value outside of cheating to the vanilla maps outside of being used to cheat, while being able to aim freely and enhanced physics (turning infinite height off and gzdoom physics in general) do actually help many people enjoy Doom much more and giving only some very situational advantage in vanilla maps that can be avoided by using them with caution.

 

There is no clear line between just playing modded Doom and cheating, it does get very complicated. I do personally advocate playing vanilla maps with classic autoaim controls and with the original physics but everybody should play Doom the way that makes them feel most comfortable. Cheating or not, it doesn't really matter outside of the competitive Doom scene. For somebody, even playing Doom with god mode on could be perfectly valid way to enjoy Doom because this doesn't remove challenge completely. It is clearly cheating but also it could be only way somebody is able to play Doom and there is nothing wrong playing like that in casual context.

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I don't think its cheating considering it was an engine flaw to begin with, although it CAN be used to your advantage in some Doom 2 maps where monsters block you. Why do I say it's not cheating? Well, my favorite port (And way to play Doom 2 still) Doom II GBA actually HAS turned off the infinitely tall monsters, making it the only official release of Doom where such a thing happens. And thus, in that version it's not cheating.

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7 hours ago, HombreSal said:

I won central processing (TNT map 20) today, but only because the spectres' infinite height in that round damaging floor area didn't block my way and I ran over them. Otherwise I would've died for sure.

 

Well... was that cheating?

I don't understand why you would even ask that question...

 

You used source port features that were not present back when TNT was made. TNT ran on DOS. You only survived because you employed these features, which drastically altered the gameplay in your favour, by your own admission.

 

Nobody cares if you label it as "I play how I want", or "I used a feature in the engine", or "It matters only situationally"... The bottom line is that you had an advantage that wouldn't be present under normal circumstances (considering it's a vanilla megaWAD those normal circumstances would be vanilla settings)...

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7 hours ago, HombreSal said:

I won central processing (TNT map 20) today, but only because the spectres' infinite height in that round damaging floor area didn't block my way and I ran over them. Otherwise I would've died for sure.

 

Well... was that cheating?

 

When I played hard wads like Hell Revealed 2 in 2010 in doomsday, I even used vertical mouselook (it was hard even with mouselook btw, even with savegames), because I had strong habits like "I really want to look down and see whats happening and don't like when they forbid me to do this"

 

But now, when I started streaming, I always disabling freelook and enabling "infinitely tall actors" feature, because I want to play as intended (in this specific context) and those settings makes game more fun, challenging and with more surprises, this is especially good for streaming. My friend, Invisible Warrior, made some challenges for me (with Bloodstain wad for example), and one of his requirements was "actors should be infinitely tall". We had long discussions with him about "should we use infinitely tall and why" (and also about other settings).

 

I am a modder, so created a mod to show these settings at startup (this is only displayed once per ESC / NEW game, and not displayed per each map):

 

https://i.ibb.co/4Fwx4VN/Screenshot-Doom-20210225-142921.png

https://i.ibb.co/wWktz5n/Screenshot-Doom-20210225-143050.png

https://i.ibb.co/kXs9Hbj/Screenshot-Heretic-20210225-143310.png

https://i.ibb.co/7gZNfbJ/Screenshot-Hexen-20210225-143441.png

https://i.ibb.co/pyq58ZD/Screenshot-Strife-20210225-143556.png

 

So when I stream the game (or other guys are streaming my challenges with my specific requirements), any viewer (including me) can see what settings are applied.

 

Also there is another interesting question: should we allow ghost monsters or not? I'm always allowing them in GZDoom, but sometimes it can produce good surprises

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1 hour ago, leodoom85 said:

Next thread: by having autoaim off, is considered cheating?

 

Calling it.


Is this thread close enough?

I play vanilla wads in Chocolate anyway, otherwise I assume that the authors of custom wads are expecting tall actors to be turned off. Most of the time tall actors are just an annoying blockage in gaps that are supposed to be crossable. In the IWADs it rarely comes up, as far as I remember.

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1 hour ago, leodoom85 said:

Next thread: by having autoaim off, is considered cheating?

 

Calling it.

 

Most interesting question people continue asking me again and again is "should we consider fov 120 as cheat?"

 

One day in 2017 I streamed hexen with fov 120, and some viewer tried to prove me that fov 120 is cheat, and we discussed this with him during 2 hours:)

 

I use fov 120 because fov 90 for me look like fov 70 or 50 for you, I feel it like I play with sniper zoom, and it's make pain for my eyes (that's why I use 120, even for 4:3 screen ratio). This is related to all shooters, not only to id tech 1. The only exception is vanilla and chocolate-like source ports, for example Russian Doom, which dont have fov functionality, so I forced to use 90 there

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I'm something of a purist and try to make it my mission to play everything the exact way it was intended (because it becomes frustrating as a mapper that your works aren't being played as intended), although since GZDoom is the source port that to me is the easiest to configure while still in-game, I must admit I fall back on it in almost all cases. Its compatibility modes do a good job of emulating the original game's behavior, and while that's not a 1:1 faithful experience, the difference I feel is negligible. Even if not playing on those compatibility modes, you can easily acknowledge when something happens that shouldn't, which commendably, OP has done.

 

To be honest, I don't blame anyone for playing without infinite height, because:

(1) it's the default setting in GZDoom, and a lot of people may not immediately pick up on that, which is no fault of their own,

(2) it's a terrible and frustrating limitation which frankly I'm glad they got rid of once Heretic came around!

 

Also, Central Processing is uh, an IWAD level. What, you think Drake O'Brien is gonna swirl out of the ether and rip out your soul for not playing the map, his map made in 1996, the way it was intended? With the innumerable options for how to play the game that are available to us as a community, do we owe every single IWAD mapper the courtesy of staunchly only playing their way old Vanilla maps in Vanilla? I think not. :P

 

Mappers like me may occasionally get up in a tiff about how you play our maps, but I think if you're just waltzing casually through the base game (or Final Doom, a set equally known for getting many people introduced to game back in the 90s), then I don't think we can stand to be that snobbish about the exact way these things are played nowadays! What are we, the fun police?

 

Don't feel bad.

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2 hours ago, Dragonfly said:

Because surfing over monster's heads, being able to skip entire maps by a single jump (lol map07), being able to aim at sniper-position monsters with freelook despite how autoaim would normally enforce a crowd of monsters closer to you to be shot first, being able to crouch to avoid any fireball you want, etc is totally not a clear advantage.

 

Again, I'm an advocate for playing how you want, but these small extra features are very much a gamechanger.

people really forget how much these changes alter the gameplay overall

like jumping in plutonia you can skip a bunch of rooms and sometimes even levels because the exit sometimes are already visible

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Yes, because infinite height makes a huge difference for the gameplay in Doom.

 

But, play however you wish.

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You know...infinite height is the original behavior for the game...but that behavior fucking sucks balls!!!

 

However, I've played sets recently WITH infinite height thanks to the ironman competition that happens here in this forum and, I don't mind it. In fact, I sometimes forget that the behavior is there.

 

@magicsofaClose enough but nope. People can use freelook and autoaim on though in combat. I prefer having it off for more precise shots.

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14 minutes ago, theleo_ua said:

Most interesting question people continue asking me again and again is "should we consider fov 120 as cheat?"

I like having a FOV of 105. 120 would be weird for me because, while I'd have a better view of whatever projectiles or enemies on range, it'd be a bit difficult to "calculate" your distance between an actor or a wall.

 

Do.yourself a favor and try it with a value of 180 :p

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7 hours ago, Dragonfly said:

It's not playing as intended and using an advantage that shouldn't be available in normal gameplay, so, yes. But play how you enjoy the most. :P

It's not only an advantage. Fliers can swarm you much more easily when they can form a multi-layered wall whereas in the original, they could only come one at a time. Fighting a horde of monsters with a Pain Elemental behind them is much more dangerous where the Lost Souls can easily get behind you and flank you without colliding immediately with the first monster at the end of the horde. And many more such situations.

 

Yes, you can potentially run over monsters (usually requires an Arch-Vile), drop in radiation pits where a Specter would otherwise block you by being 50 meters below you etc. But infinite height is a double edged sword, not just an advantage.

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As I play in GzDoom for the most part, but map in Boom format, I test in both PrBoom+ and GzDoom, and I'm conscious to make sure it plays well and looks good in both. I will sometimes also add little things just because, such as church pews or small crates which you can crouch down behind for cover if you want, you don't need them, there's other things to use for cover, like pillars and corners, but I like the detail and the opportunity.

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It is indeed cheating, but it also doesn't matter. Play however you want. The IRS isn't going to audit your Doom option menu

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11 hours ago, HombreSal said:

I won central processing (TNT map 20) today, but only because the spectres' infinite height in that round damaging floor area didn't block my way and I ran over them. Otherwise I would've died for sure.

 

Well... was that cheating?

My friend told interesting thoughts on this, let me translate:

 

This should be turned off in wads that have been made for limit-removing ports, because otherwise there may be softlock situations. In old vanilla-wads, turning off allows you to get some advantage, but I would not call it a straight cheat. I played Requiem, Memento Mori 1-2 with infinite tall turned off, and I don't remember any situations in which I would have been an imba chuck norris. Although it probably depends on the structure of the level. Maybe there are some levels where it will be cheat-like.

 

And about the softlock, a good example: a hole with a bunch of pinkies, through which you have to run, and you are not allowed to fall down. By the way, about the "pinky-pit" situation: I remember well how frustrated I was because something prevented me from jumping into the dark hall at the end of MAP11 O of Destruction! : ZZ01_BW_trollface: And there is a cacodemon from below rose to me

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4 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

 

Removing infinite height also does give player some potentially gamebreaking advantages but also comes with it's own disadvantages

 

 

What exact disadvantages? Could you please provide some examples?

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I had a map from a while ago that teleported a shit ton of revenants into the map, when playing in pr-boom+ (the port it was intended for) these revenants forced the player to carefully decide how to get to the other end of the small map and grab the rocket launcher. There was a player who recorded their playthrough showing them simply running over the revenants in order to grab it, essentially breaking a core gimmick to the map. Now, I'm not one to force my playstyle on other people, but I do believe many maps can be cheesed in such a way that you are destroying the intended experience. For example, when I first got into Doom, I had no idea jumping wasn't intended as it is enabled by default in the first source port I used. This meant, when I first played Limbo from Ultimate Doom, I was really confused about why so much of the map was optional and what the point in raising a bridge to the exit was if I could simply jump there. All this to say, yes, I believe, in a way it is cheating. That doesn't mean you can't play it how you want.

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