Is playing the original/vanilla iwads without infinite height cheating?

[theleo_ua]

3 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

I like having a FOV of 105. 120 would be weird for me because, while I'd have a better view of whatever projectiles or enemies on range, it'd be a bit difficult to "calculate" your distance between an actor or a wall.

I understand, so 105 for you is something like 120 for me, and 120 for you is like 140 for me. But again, the question is - should we consider this as cheat?

3 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

Do.yourself a favor and try it with a value of 180 :p

Till 2018, I used fov 160 in doomsday, because those versions of Doomsday had strange camera render:

 

fov90 you feel like fov40

fov120 you feel like fov90

fov160 you feel like fov120

 

I bet, if you try that versions of doomsday, you will want to set higher fov than 120

 

But now they are fixed those camera rendering issues, so I use something like 135 for now (in current Doomsday version)

 

Here is an example of how I streamed in fov160, feeling it as fov 120: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zinx1oStuz0&list=PL5QwAqOy7WADrvFI9vZEQL9NY00InRXXX&index=1&t=2h49m56s#t=2h49m56s

 

Watch it from 2:49:56 to 2:50:47 and from 2:44:41 to 2:45:08 to see how I changed to fov 90 and 120, and watch any other part of the video to see, how it looks like on fov 160

 

Here is the example of how fov90 look like (the default doomsday fov value, for which the 3dmodels were created, tested and polished): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekgKPkloo3Q&list=PL5QwAqOy7WACZbw4OKosShl_Jzyeq_FMv&index=106&disable_polymer=true&t=0h00m00s#t=0h00m00s

 

For me, this is total "sniper zooming gameplay", and 160 is much better (even 120 is better)

 

But for other non-doomsday ports (or non id tech 1 games) 120 is enough (130 sometimes, for example for Eternal). Also, games like Eternal is good example of games where fov is not a cheat because you can choose it in ingame settings (and this is not the same as settings in GZDoom, because Eternal is not a source port)

 

[leodoom85]

@theleo_uaI'll take a look when I get to home. Thanks.

 

And, now that you mentioned that FOV is an option in DE, Minecraft has also a FOV option to suit the player's taste. So yeah....not a cheat.

[Dubbag]

I mean I've played Doom for the last 16 years with mouselook on and have always played with out infinite height. I guess I'm a cheater then.

[Sir Hattington]

yes

[roadworx]

yes, playing doom on anything other than a 486 dos machine with a shitty yellowed keyboard and a 2-inch crt monitor that weighs 57 tons is cheating

[Super Mighty G]

To be technical no source port reproduces Doom's original behavior completely so using anything but the DOS executable can be considered cheating.

 

See how silly this slippery slope is?

[theleo_ua]

3 hours ago, roadworx said:

yes, playing doom on anything other than a 486 dos machine with a shitty yellowed keyboard and a 2-inch crt monitor that weighs 57 tons is cheating

best message in this topic imho, 10 cocoademon smiles for you for this

[MrTAD]

If you're not speedrunning, you're not cheating. My first time playing the original Iwads was on GZ Doom, and my default settings allowed me to jump and crouch. Needless to say I used that to break the game. But I don't feel I "Cheated" because there was nothing to gain from doing so. I think people should definitely play a Wad how it was intended, and for the first Iwads Inifinite Monster Height was intended.

[jmac]

I honestly can't stand infinite height monsters. Nothing pisses me off more in doom than having my movement blocked or being bitten by something so far above or below me that I can't even see it. It's BS to the highest degree, and if it weren't for the technical limitations of the time, it would have never been in the game to begin with.

 

The way I see it, turning it off is closer to being a bug fix than it is to being cheating.

[magicsofa]

8 hours ago, roadworx said:

yes, playing doom on anything other than a 486 dos machine with a shitty yellowed keyboard and a 2-inch crt monitor that weighs 57 tons is cheating

I didn't realize how much I missed aged yellow keyboards until now

[Jello]

I mean it is in a sense. But I completed Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 when they were released. I don't really see an issue with using quality of life improvements like mouseaim, or turning auto-aim off. Actually the QOL elements are what brought me back to the game back in 2000. So play it the way you want and have fun. That being said, I do try to stick to what a mappers intentions are, especially regarding jumping, but you can pry my mouse from my cold, dead, freelooking hand.

[Stupid Bunny]

5 hours ago, magicsofa said:

I didn't realize how much I missed aged yellow keyboards until now

with a giant 5 pin connector in the back yum yum ❤️

 

On 2/25/2021 at 9:07 AM, GarrettChan said:

Next thread idea:

 

Is playing with Y-axis mouse movement off cheating?

 

or

 

Is playing with advanced HUD cheating?

 

Hot take: playing with brightmaps enabled  is cheating it makes finding plasma cells and armor bonuses in the dark too easy

 

But ima make a thread about it just to be sure

[GarrettChan]

19 minutes ago, StupidBunny said:

Hot take: playing with brightmaps enabled  is cheating it makes finding plasma cells and armor bonuses in the dark too easy

 

But ima make a thread about it just to be sure

TBH, other than this, playing with GL Renderer or Software Renderer have different advantages for different maps, so yeah :P

[Azuris]

On 2/25/2021 at 9:31 PM, Dubbagdarrel said:

I mean I've played Doom for the last 16 years with mouselook on and have always played with out infinite height. I guess I'm a cheater then.

 

Well, simple said.

Play as it pleases you, nobody should attack you and vice versa you should nobody attack for their Gusto of playing Doom.

 

If People start to Compete in some Way, than and only than you need Ruleset that is for everyone the same :)

If there is specified that a special Feature is Cheating, than it is.

 

The good Thing about Doom is its simple fun Gameplay and that you can even Add Features to make it even more pleasing to you needs.

Or if you just want to experience the Game in different Ways.

Nobody is hindering us :)

[theleo_ua]

12 hours ago, StupidBunny said:

with a giant 5 pin connector in the back yum yum ❤️

 

like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-6311-Vintage-PC-Computer-Keyboard-5-Pin-DIN-Connector-/124067236018 one?

[Stupid Bunny]

@theleo_ua oh yeah that's the stuff right there

[Pegg]

All the extra challenge provided by it is stupid nonsense rather than difficult events. getting blocked (and bitten) by a specter that's 3 meters below you is just stupid shit.

[Dragonfly]

Go play the icon of sin with freelook, and without, then come back to this thread.

[Bauul]

I've always felt it's a scale. A higher resolution than 320x200 makes the game easier too: is that cheating? What about the auto-run button, that makes things much easier than holding Shift the whole time. Obviously also cheating.

 

It's really down to the application. Freelook, jumping, non-infinite height enemies etc. aren't automatically cheating by simply being present, but if you use them to give yourself an unrealistic advantage (surfing on demons, breaking progression, shooting the IoS from the ground etc.) then yes that's cheating. 

 

But also, that's absolutely fine. Play the game however you want (as long as you recognize you are playing it with advantages).

[leodoom85]

34 minutes ago, Bauul said:

I've always felt it's a scale. A higher resolution than 320x200 makes the game easier too: is that cheating? What about the auto-run button, that makes things much easier than holding Shift the whole time. Obviously also cheating.

 

It's really down to the application. Freelook, jumping, non-infinite height enemies etc. aren't automatically cheating by simply being present, but if you use them to give yourself an unrealistic advantage (surfing on demons, breaking progression, shooting the IoS from the ground etc.) then yes that's cheating. 

 

But also, that's absolutely fine. Play the game however you want (as long as you recognize you are playing it with advantages).

Fuck.....if I were more nitpicky, I'd say that using WASD + mouse is also cheating!!! Use the original keyboard layout!!!

 

:D

[Egg Boy]

27 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Fuck.....if I were more nitpicky, I'd say that using WASD + mouse is also cheating!!! Use the original keyboard layout!!!

 

:D

Don’t want to be the ackshully guy but Id definitely used a mouse when they were playing it. There was a whole thread about it

[omx32x]

2 hours ago, Bauul said:

I've always felt it's a scale. A higher resolution than 320x200 makes the game easier too: is that cheating? What about the auto-run button, that makes things much easier than holding Shift the whole time. Obviously also cheating.

funny thing when i played on dos box i binded the running key to space and the movement to wasd

way way way easier to held down while you are playing and run all the time

[Noiser]

5 hours ago, Bauul said:

It's really down to the application. Freelook, jumping, non-infinite height enemies etc. aren't automatically cheating by simply being present, but if you use them to give yourself an unrealistic advantage (surfing on demons, breaking progression, shooting the IoS from the ground etc.) then yes that's cheating. 

The problem is: it's not always obvious when you are breaking the combat. People like to point out switches or the IOS but there are other advantages that freelook can give on a regular fight as well. And different from jumping or crouching, it's not something you can choose with the press of a button.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Noiser

[Murdoch]

I would call it a critical bug fix, not cheating. Any designer that specifically took advantage of this bug deserves a stern finger wagged at them.

[Blackroat]

It is against the nature of Doom to get a damage falling from height.

[omx32x]

2 hours ago, Noiser said:

The problem is: it's not always obvious when you are breaking the combat. People like to point out switches or the IOS but there are other advantages that freelook can give on a regular fight as well. And different from jumping or crouching, it's not something you can choose with the press of a button.

yeah using free look you can abuse the infinite height splash damage from the rocket launcher killing enemies that would appear in a trap

its especially broken on slaughter maps

[Bauul]

10 hours ago, Noiser said:

The problem is: it's not always obvious when you are breaking the combat. People like to point out switches or the IOS but there are other advantages that freelook can give on a regular fight as well. And different from jumping or crouching, it's not something you can choose with the press of a button.

 

I completely agree.  Someone not realizing they are breaking a map by using advanced source features is far more of an issue than someone knowingly choosing to.  I've seen videos of people playing maps of mine where they jump over barriers and then get confused when sequences break.  It literally never occurred to them they had broken the map by jumping. 

 

Therefore I'd say someone deliberately choosing to use features to give themselves an advantage isn't an issue, as long as they are fully aware of the ramifications of their actions.  It's the accidental map breakers that are the problem.  

[Gez]

On jeudi 25 février 2021 at 11:41 AM, Dragonfly said:

Because surfing over monster's heads, being able to skip entire maps by a single jump (lol map07), being able to aim at sniper-position monsters with freelook despite how autoaim would normally enforce a crowd of monsters closer to you to be shot first, being able to crouch to avoid any fireball you want, etc is totally not a clear advantage.

I'd say that being able to essentially skip an entire map is not really an advantage. But I'm of the opinion that the point of playing the game is playing the game. If I want to skip maps I can just not start playing it at all, and there, skipped all 32 maps in the IWAD without even using advanced port features!

 

I'm skipping all of the Doom maps ever made right now! All of them! Mwahahahah!

[Dragonfly]

So is the next arbitrary thread to arrive going to be something about the philosophical meaning of how not actually playing doom is the One True Way™ of speedrunning doom? 😂

[omx32x]

14 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

So is the next arbitrary thread to arrive going to be something about the philosophical meaning of how not actually playing doom is the One True Way™ of speedrunning doom? 😂

"is auto weapon centering cheating?"