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Captain Keen

What do you want id to do next after Eternal?

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9 hours ago, Senor Cacodemon said:

Sometimes I think that it would be cool if they could go back to the original doom engine and make a new doom game in there. Of course, being honest, they would probably make it to get money from peoples nostalgia but I still do think it would be cool. Imagine a new weapon like the ballista in Doom 1993. And completely new official maps.

Reminds me of most of the stuff i wrote where they make a "indie/boomer shooter" style game with help from modders or indie devs, just to play with the classic stuff and include new stuff somehow.

But done in a way to justify it.

 

9 hours ago, Ghostly_Pops said:

doom 64 remake maybe? 

That reminds me, how's that project the GEC team was working on?

Because to me, bringing back D64 translates to "look they finally brought and canonized the cut enemies".

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On 6/6/2022 at 2:20 AM, Flake Lorenz said:

I want a new Quake stylized as the first one was. Maybe add Cthulu or something

in quake we have chtulhu it is vadrigar of the elder world chtalha aka Emma Johansen granddaughter of gustav Johansen from call of chtulhu novel,and one fact by adam pyle  he creator of the current lore and canon of quake he say this in quake of discord server before release of doom eternal the doom slayer and bj are ideed guest  characters and not apear in quake champions events in qc they just fan service doom from q3 are doomguy from parallel time line he died after ep 1 and trapped in to eternal arena domain in Dreamlands, like paul Williams aka volkerh after nightmares  by Contact with ancient parchment   he poison himself   he apear  in realm of black magic became vadrigar and defeat the lurching king.

Edited by Wad overdose

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15 hours ago, Wad overdose said:

in quake we have chtulhu it is vadrigar of the elder world chtalha aka Emma Johansen granddaughter of gustav Johansen from call of chtulhu novel,and one fact by adam pyle  he creator of the current lore and canon of quake he say this in quake of discord server before release of doom eternal the doom slayer and bj are ideed guest  characters and not apear in quake champions events in qc they just fan service doom from q3 are doomguy from parallel time line he died after ep 1 and trapped in to eternal arena domain in Dreamlands, like paul Williams aka volkerh after nightmares  by Contact with ancient parchment   he poison himself   he apear  in realm of black magic became vadrigar and defeat the lurching king.

 

That's one hell of a sentence

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I actually didn't like Quake that much, because it had super weak gunplay, but the level design was the most consistent Id's ever delivered. I think it would work well in a less... shootery context. Maybe a new Quake with the original's artstyle and atmosphere, but borrow some gameplay and progression ideas from stuff like Thief or Metroid Prime, that would fit the tone better? Honestly, I would love a completely non-combat game that just used Quake's level design with Hub progression, but that's not Id's strength.

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On 3/4/2021 at 12:56 AM, Captain Keen said:

what do you want to see id do next?

Do a proper Wolfenstein remake

 

I know Machine Games already done a few but ever since the old blood, the rest are just bad

 

And I don't really think a Wolfenstein 3 will save how bad it has become. Since they started the BS with New Colossus and didn't stop

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On 7/3/2022 at 11:12 AM, The Doommer said:

Do a proper Wolfenstein remake

 

I know Machine Games already done a few but ever since the old blood, the rest are just bad

The New Colossus was great except for the annoying laser dog. I enjoyed it more than The New Order and Old Blood.

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36 minutes ago, igg said:

The New Colossus was great except for the annoying laser dog.

I respect your opinion but in my eyes TNC and TYB are just bad.

 

I have a lot of reasons to dislike them but this is a Doom forum so it'll probably be off-topic

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Id Software has not made a Wolfenstein game since Wolfenstein 3D anyway.

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By the way, how much of cancelled events is known?

Because apparently, there were plans of a "Khan Maykr" skin for the Arch-vile, at least as seen in this video.

The video doesn't cover all cancelled events but the missing one in it that comes to my head is the Bob Ross skin and set.

Other stuff i recall is just concept art and variations of existing stuff.

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On 7/6/2022 at 5:31 AM, Rudolph said:

Id Software has not made a Wolfenstein game since Wolfenstein 3D anyway.

That's why I said they should work on one instead of Machine Games.

 

Tho RtCW and TNO were really decent. With TOB being also mostly great

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Posted (edited)

I do not see how Id Software would be more qualified to work on Wolfenstein than any of the third-party developers who worked on the franchise. Not that they would be unable to pull it off, of course, but let us not forget that Youngblood was in part developed by Arkane Studios; something else must have happened during development, because the people who worked on it were clearly not incompetent.

 

Likewise, it was Id Software that made the divisive Doom 3 and the lackluster RAGE.

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The issue with Wolfenstein is it started to become this game with political themes.

It never needed to and it should never have to.

 

It kinda became a parody of itself after TOB tbh.

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24 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

The issue with Wolfenstein is it started to become this game with political themes.

It never needed to and it should never have to.

Well, I do not think it is possible to make a game without political themes if it involves fighting enemies that are explicitly adhering to a real-life ideology. 

 

Maybe it is best that Id Software sticks to making games about killing otherwordly creatures.

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1 minute ago, Rudolph said:

I do not think it is possible to make a game without political themes if it involves fighting enemies that are explicitly adhering to a real-life ideology.

Wolf 3D, SoD, RtCW, TNO.

 

These really didn't think too hard about politics.

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Well, Wolfenstein 3D wasn't really that serious of a game.

You know Nazis were pieces of shit but the game was cartoony and what little story it had, the text was written in a campy tone. (though there is a story of an actual real WW2 vet that lived long enough to make his own Wolf 3D mods)

RTCW was serious but it also went for an "adventurous vibe" and there's probably something about the amount of WW2 games coming around the early 2000's during the hype of Saving Private Ryan. (came in 1998 but still close enough)

To some people, adding Nazis felt like adding pirates or zombies, as if they were just another "category" of bad guys you'd add in a game.

Like when you list types of monsters and you get ghosts, zombies, vampires, Frankenstein's monster etc like cliches and archetypes. (or rather "tropes").

 

Whole thing about "videogames being politics" is a confusing mess because there's a significant difference between how themes were done in the MGS series and something you'd expect in a Family Guy cutaway gag.

The issue isn't really "is it political or not", but rather "how is this going to be delivered" because there's a lot of old sci-fi media that reflected its ongoing politics or just philosophical topics and it's different from a modern show that comes off as "the writer had an arguement on Twitter and hasn't recovered".

It also affects how people in 2010's and 2020's will look at older media, in specific viewpoints nobody ever thought of.

 

Most of the politics people complain about in Wolfenstein 2 just usually means specific 2010's topics and not actual WW2 stuff.

Part of why is because making a game too aware of its ongoing topics may make it age and make you go "oh yeah, this came out in 2017". (same reason why your average new Simpsons episodes ages badly)

 

Meanwhile, Doom Eternal had "political stuff" but it was "the UAC is pretending to be progressive to justify their actions" and maybe that one magazine joke about cancel culture: So nothing even that connected to the main premise that much.

But for a series about Hell and Demons, Urdak and Maykrs are the opposite of a Japanese game getting away with direct religious references that you can Google up.

Meanwhile, Quake is about Lovecraft and you can see the obvious thing people will bring up.

 

Come to think of it: on one hand, some people said Doom Eternal's "woke UAC" was a contrast to Wolfenstein 2's "2017 self aware stuff" but i still remember seeing people saying that 2016 had an anti-corporate message because of the Argent Energy subplot.

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6 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

though there is a story of an actual real WW2 vet that lived long enough to make his own Wolf 3D mods

Wish he would work on a mod for Doom that was based on Wolf 3D.

Tho I do wanna know those mod names.

 

6 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

Most of the politics people complain about in Wolfenstein 2 just usually means specific 2010's topics and not actual WW2 stuff.

Well there's also one big issue with how Wolfenstein 2 tries to comment on how Nazis act.

Basically, when BJ hears of the NY nuke details, he goes to say "Monsters did this" then the female character goes "Not monsters, men."

Like are y'all aware that this incident actually did happen IRL by the US on Japan? None one nuke either, but two?

 

How are Nazis bad for nuking a city to stop a war, but not the US? Double standards all the way.

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Posted (edited)

Well, that is bound to happen when you set your game in an alternate future where the Nazis have (officially) won.

 

And yes, MachineGames Wolfenstein games reek of cognitive dissonance, but again, there are only so many Wolfenstein games you can make about World War II before people get sick and tired of the setting all over again, like they did with Medal of Honor and Call of Duty.

 

I guess Wolfenstein could always go the Serious Sam route and have BJ follow Nazis back in time, but still, the fact that the franchise has to be about fighting Nazis means that there is always going to be some politics involved.

 

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

Wolf 3D, SoD, RtCW, TNO.

Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny had barely any story to begin with. I do not think it really counts, as Id would never make a game like that today.

 

Return to Castle Wolfenstein is set in more realistic locations, some of the characters are based off real historical figures and there is even a cameo from Heinrich Himmler himself. Not super political, granted, but the politics are still there.

 

And then there is The New Order, which openly tackles eugenics, concentration camps and race politics (including a Jimi Hendix cameo!).

 

36 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

You know Nazis were pieces of shit but the game was cartoony and what little story it had, the text was written in a campy tone.

The danger of not taking Nazi atrocities too seriously is that you may end up doing the same mistake as Blade of Agony, i.e. featuring a highly controversial level set inside a concentration camp where you encounter Itzhak Stern and battle a cartoon Josef Mengele.

Edited by Rudolph

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31 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny had barely any story to begin with. I do not think it really counts, as Id would never make a game like that today.

Neither do the classic Doom games.

Who cares? People still love those games.

 

32 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

And then there is The New Order, which openly tackles eugenics, concentration camps and race politics (including a Jimi Hendix cameo!).

Concentration camps are not really a politics topic tho, it is a messed up thing Nazis did back in the actual WW2. It's more history.

Even then, you'd not be forced to engage in a politics-filled story like how TNC did it.

 

34 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Return to Castle Wolfenstein is set in more realistic locations, some of the characters are based off real historical figures and there is even a cameo from Heinrich Himmler himself. Not super political, granted, but the politics are still there.

No one really pays attention to the politics in that game, even if they are there. Cause they're not forced in your face.

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I mean, Wolfenstein still had sci-fi/fantasy/fictional elements mixed with WW2, like how Doom had its creative takens on Hell and Demons, even COD had the Zombie stuff where they just make up creative stuff with WW2 to blatantly ignore historical accuracy.

Though when it comes to fan creations, we've seen a lot more for Doom than Wolfenstein.

But speaking of COD: The series went to a modern military direction during a specific era for American politics, even if it's also meant to be "brainless fun for casual gamers" while copying scenes from Michael Bay movies.

 

Another thing with "politics in games" is how americanized the whole topic feels, so if a Japanese game tackles something specific, people will view it through American centric goggles, without even thinking of what happens in a different country.

I can see what you mean with RTCW adding realistic stuff and Himmler, though to some people, it comes more off as "immersive" because of the realism itself, even if the Ubersoldats and undead are still there.

 

I think another issue with Blade of Agony is how it's a Wolfenstein themed mod for GZDoom: which basically renders it as "playable fanfiction", so the problem with how far it went is thinking of those real people and concepts mixed with cartoony sprites and the games it's based off.

If it was an indie game as its own IP and a project seperate from these games, then maybe that would make it less tone deaf.

Just not the right time or place, maybe.

 

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

Wish he would work on a mod for Doom that was based on Wolf 3D. 

Tho I do wanna know those mod names.

Here's the author i was talking about https://imx-doomer.tumblr.com/post/162259828485/xeppeli-im-not-shitting-you-when-i-say-this-i

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57 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

Neither do the classic Doom games.

While I would love to see Id Software go back to making classic Doom games, they made it clear with Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal that they have no intention of doing so, as they could not resist giving them more cutscenes, dialogues and lore than they ever needed to.

 

57 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

Concentration camps are not really a politics topic tho

Are you kidding me?!? They absolutely are. They involve forcibly gathering groups of people whose shared identity is deemed undesirable by the government and shoving them into camps where they will be tortured and killed - either passively (through squalid living conditions) or actively (physically beaten up, mauled and shot). It is not even a relic of the past, as nations everywhere - including the United States - are still making them.

 

A concentration camp in a video game is about as political as a school level where you get to gun down human beings. Extremely charged material.

 

57 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

No one really pays attention to the politics in that game, even if they are there. Cause they're not forced in your face.

Again, The New Order goes as far as having BJ wake up in a hospital where the Nazis are executing disabled patients in cold blood; on many occasions, he is forced at gunpoint to listen to villains recite their racist beliefs and you will be met with a game over if you try to interrupt them; then, he encounters Jimi fucking Hendrix, who lectures him about dealing with the "Man" and then dies while playing his deliberately distorted cover of the Star-Spangled Banner (which he did not play out of appreciation for the United States of America, just so you know). It cannot be more in your face than that.

Edited by Rudolph

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28 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

It is not even a relic of the past, as nations everywhere - including the United States - are still making them.

Yeah I totally agree.

 

29 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Again, The New Order goes as far as having BJ wake up in a hospital where the Nazis are executing disabled patients in cold blood; on many occasions, he is forced at gunpoint to listen to villains recite their racist beliefs; then, he encounters Jimi fucking Hendrix, who lectures him about dealing with the "Man" and then dies while playing his deliberately distorted cover of the Star-Spangled Banner (which he did not play out of appreciation for the United States of America, just so you know). It cannot be more in your face than that.

Guess I just forgot. Been about at least 7 years since I played it.

 

30 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

A concentration camp in a video game is about as political as a school level where you get to gun down human beings

In a WW2 video game it also serves a historical purpose.

 

34 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

I think another issue with Blade of Agony is how it's a Wolfenstein themed mod for GZDoom: which basically renders it as "playable fanfiction", so the problem with how far it went is thinking of those real people and concepts mixed with cartoony sprites and the games it's based off.

I will make a topic on this specific game later and why I believe that specific part in chapter 3 could work really well if people were given a heads up about it beforehand.

 

32 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

as they could not resist giving them more cutscenes, dialogues and lore than they ever needed to.

Thing is, Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are not really story-based.

 

Yeah they have a story and a lore but they're not RDR2.

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23 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

Thing is, Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are not really story-based.

They absolutely are.

 

They may not be as story-driven as Doom 3, but they still feature a codex, plenty of cutscenes, plenty of characters delivering expository dialogue (in person or through your headset) and plenty of environmental storytelling that make you feel like you are a character in a story and not just navigating random levels, like in Classic Doom and Quake, where the level order never really mattered outside of the boss fights.

 

A game without much story would be Hellbound, which I unfortunately cannot really recommend:

 

 

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1 minute ago, Rudolph said:

they still feature plenty of cutscenes, plenty of characters delivering expository dialogue

I mean I remember Doom 2016 had the Slayer yeet/punch the monitor when Samuel Hayden wanted to provide his motivations etc

 

It really doesn't care about the story and a lot of them are the Slayer facing a demon and doing cool things, not much of a cutscene of people talking.

 

The dialogue can be ignored as mostly you don't need to hear much to know what you should do. Except maybe VEGA sometimes

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

I mean I remember Doom 2016 had the Slayer yeet/punch the monitor when Samuel Hayden wanted to provide his motivations etc

Yeah, but he keeps calling you to deliver expository dialogue that you cannot mute and he even locks you up in rooms from time to time, Half-Life 1 style, to force you to listen to what he has to say and engage with environmental storytelling.

 

And even if that cutscene you describe was the last we ever saw of Samuel Hayden, you would still have all the holographic scenes, Olivia Pierce's taunts and VEGA's broadcasts. Again, it is just not like Classic Doom and Quake, where there is literally no story whatsoever in the levels itself and most maps could be played in any order, since they never felt connected to one another like they are in all new Doom games, including Doom 3.

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1 minute ago, Rudolph said:

even locks you up in rooms from time to time

Except that one time when he meets with you face to face, when did these happen?

 

Even then, that face to face meeting can have you be distracted with the ammo and statues cause it's never a cutscene

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Posted (edited)

All I am saying is that just not paying attention to the story does not mean it is not there anymore: otherwise, you could say Half-Life 1 is not story-driven because you can go to the bathroom during the opening tram ride or skip the scene altogether with the chapter selection screen. At the end of the day, it does not matter how much story content there is and how much you can skip, if the game is designed to tell a story, then it is story-driven.

Edited by Rudolph

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It might be story-driven but the story doesn't matter.

I don't believe iD even wanted it to matter.

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19 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

It might be story-driven but the story doesn't matter.

I don't believe iD even wanted it to matter.

New Doom? i mean a lot of effort goes into stuff like directing those cutscenes and programming stuff, even if something is optional.

Besides, i believe id is aware of people who got invested in the lore and all.

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I meant that the story doesn't matter to the game itself, not to the players who might like it.

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2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

The danger of not taking Nazi atrocities too seriously is that you may end up doing the same mistake as Blade of Agony, i.e. featuring a highly controversial level set inside a concentration camp where you encounter Itzhak Stern and battle a cartoon Josef Mengele.



I don't have particularly strong opinions on the direction of the Wolfenstein series aside from the real atrocity being the severely underrated '09 entry not being on any digital storefront.

However, that aside. I would argue that this example you gave is, arguably, exactly the point of Wolfenstein. It's The Producers meets Army of Darkness, (or Indiana Jones meets Rambo II,) and that's why it exists. Just a thought that might bear considering. (I have no idea how tasteful or tasteless the moment was in execution, but "battling a cartoon Josef Mengele" doesn't  sound like something id wouldn't have done.

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