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Captain Keen

What do you want id to do next after Eternal?

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Posted (edited)

I recently played through the DLC of Metro Exodus, and there are some nice FPS hand combat sequences, but they are all non-interactive and cinematic. But I've been thinking about how to bring that experience to organic FPS gameplay.

 

I think the best way would be to have three basic commands: attack, block and jump. Each one would serve multiple purposes depending on the situation. This would avoid QTEs, but still give the player agency in hand-to-hand sequences.

 

I'm imaging a Quake type of world with undead zombies and that sort of thing. You hit one command to shoot or attack, like any other shooter. When not engaged in hand-to-hand, it's to shoot or attack with a weapon just like Doom. When you are engaged in hand-to-hand, this key strikes your enemy. However, enemies can block your attacks, so it's all about timing. Then there's the block command, which I see somewhat as a glory kill button too. You use this to engage with an enemy in hand-to-hand combat, just like glory kills. Once in hand-to-hand, you use this button to block attacks and protect yourself, and if you double tap it you can try to break out of the hand-to-hand attack and return to normal shooting. Enemies can also engage with you, meaning if they get close they can grab you and initiate a hand-to-hand attack sequence. (Some enemies, not all.)

 

Jump would be both for jumping, and also getting up if you are knocked to the ground. So imagine a ballet of hand-to-hand death where you can fire at enemies, engage them in hand-to-hand combat, strike and block attacks while engaged in hand-to-hand, and then also get knocked to the ground. If you're knocked to the ground, you use jump to get back up, or block to stop an attack on you from the ground. If your weapon falls away from you, which could happen sometimes but not always, you use attack/shoot to grab it back up. The skill would come from timing things properly and knowing when to engage and when to back off. Different enemies would have different levels of difficulty and different specific attacks.

 

I think it would also be cool if stronger enemies can grab and throw you, and even throw you off ledges or bridges which can cause severe damage or even death. However, if you know how to block properly, you can stop this from happening or even throw them off a bridge/ledge.

 

Essentially it would be three buttons/keys with multiple uses, and this could work with either a keyboard or controller. It wouldn't be that much different than Eternal, except glory kills would instead be hand-to-hand and would also serve as a block key once engaged. No QTEs, but all about timing when to engage, attack and block. When to hold off and when to get close. If you successfully beat an enemy in hand-to-hand you could get extra health or ammo or something. If there are a ton of enemies in a room, you can take damage from them while engaged with a specific enemy, making hand-to-hand maybe not the smartest idea until you clear some of them out.

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Posted (edited)

I was reminded of how in Hexen, there was a chance of the centaurs reflecting your Porkalator and making you turn into a pig.

And how some games have enemies being able to transform players into weak creatures for a limited time, like mummies in Metal Slug 2.

So imagine a demon that can have a chance to transform Doomguy into a weaker demonic version of him.

Like 2016 MP's demonic runes but a bit different.

Or rather, that used for infiltration, because i'm pretty sure one of Quake 2's expansions had a mission where you could infiltrate the Strogg by pretending to be one of them, so they wouldn't notice you.

Cultist Base's Revenant scene wasn't really "infiltration" since you still killed demons.

 

Or also, stuff like vehicle based enemies that have enemies piloting them and even coming out of them. (almost like a clown car)

Or some sections where Doomguy can optionally pilot UAC/Sentinel/even Hell vehicles just for fun.

That would probably require levels to be worked around supporting such things.

 

edit: Also, imagine if Imps could extend their spikes like Iron Maidens in Resident Evil 4.

i also wonder if id ever considered guided missiles (like Redeemers in Unreal) or Duke 3D-ish jetpacks.

Edited by whatup876 : more ideas.

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I'm gonna join those who say "Give me a Lovecrafty singleplayer romp influenced by Quake 1", but I think it would be really cool to see it taken in the opposite direction from modern Doom.

 

I agree that the gritty, gothic dirt-stone-wood feel of Quake 1 is unique from the environments of Doom, but there are other nuances that have been touched on previously in the thread. Both Doom and Quake (not to mention Half-Life) share the basic 90s shooter story of "unscrupulous people monkey with teleporters and encounter monsters", so I can see how some folks feel a Quake reboot would be redundant, but I think each of those games had their own personality.

 

Half-Life obviously went the furthest with familiar real-world environments, and was the one most firmly rooted in science fiction, with the critters explicitly being aliens. Doom was more abstract, owing somewhat to limitations of its time, and it's also on the fence of scifi vs horror/fantasy, with space stations alongside what seemed like a Satanic sort of hell. Quake 1 largely left its science fiction behind after the opening portions and went balls-out to the other side, battering fantasy enemies into grimy giblets in dark, stony castles. I think that element is part of why it stands out for so many people when later Quake entries swung far to the sci-fi side, invading alien worlds and doing Mortal Kombat in arenas with railguns and technological respawning.

 

Things I would like to see return in a modern Quake reboot, heavy on horror:

- A Lovecraft-inspired story with terribly ancient Eldritch horrors beneath the surface of the earth.

- Genuinely creepy zombies, with the gross-yet-dangerous ranged weapon of throwing handfuls of rotten flesh at you. Combine with an intimidating moan and a tendency to come back to unlife if not gibbed by powerful weapons -- that you don't yet have when the zombies first appear.

- Nailguns for bullet hoses, preferably a basic one and a badass one.

- Iconic Quake 1 baddies like psychotically aggressive knights in plate armor, and the ogres with a chainsaw in one hand and a 'nade launcher in the other.

- Creatures that are monstrous in an animalistic or primordial way as opposed to a demonic or space-alien way.

- A lightning gun that reacts badly to being fired underwater.

 

Things that might be fun for them to innovate on to distance it from modern Doom:

- To turn away from high-speed action loops to a survival horror-influenced pace and aesthetic (Doom 3 is an obvious comparison). I'd love to see a slower-paced game, with a less-superpowered protagonist than Doomguy, but whose firearms feel more powerful against his somewhat more down-to-earth opposition. No Dash, no Meathook, and he won't have 30" biceps to rip-and-tear demons in half, but his guns are reliably deadly in a traditional sense as opposed to Doomguy's arcadey deck of counters. Soft hostiles like human cultists should be messily killed with a single shotgun blast. This would be a very different world from the one where Doom Eternal treats a large-caliber rifle like a spitball straw.

- Melee weapons with blocking. Maybe a rock-paper-scissors like Aliens vs Predator 2010 where light attacks can be blocked, heavy attacks break blocks, but light attacks are fast enough to interrupt heavy attacks. Alternatively if you wanted it to be more complex with a higher skill ceiling: direction-based attacks and blocking, like Mount&Blade. Enemies that are tough melee opponents, like armored knights, can become less of a threat later in the campaign, with ammo becoming more plentiful.

- A lightning gun that can affect objects in the environment in ways beyond "kill the wielder and everything else in the water if fired underwater"; i.e., environment objects that can be temporarily or permanently activated by powering or melting them with the lightning gun.

 

I imagine a campaign where the plucky human protagonist starts from a mundane-though-creepy real-world setting and starts digging into something that ends up more than he bargained for. Maybe the story is kicked off by an abduction or a murder and the hero's quest for answers brings him up against forces that Man Was Not Meant To Know, his enemies escalating from mysterious creeps and fanatics to monsters and unspeakable evils. Part of the story should take place in otherworldly locales to allow for some of the classic Quake 1 style enemies and environments, but it would be really cool to see the game start in "the real world" and then take a Lovecrafty turn into the weird shit.

 

The arsenal could expand in accord; early in the campaign it might be a tough call to use some precious handgun bullets so that you don't have to beat three guys to death in one fight. By the last act though, our formerly reluctant, desperate hero would be a hardened by his quest, taking a drum-fed shotgun and a spinning quad-barrelled nailgun to battle an eldritch abomination in an underground cavern where it's waking up after a thirty-thousand-year nap.

 

That is a game that wouldn't be redundant with modern Doom.

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The thread title implies things outside of Doom. That never crossed my mind. AFTER Doom Eternal? Another Doom, of course. I actually have something made regarding Eternal and games to follow. So look out for that. Probably going in its own thread. Preferably for serious, design-oriented discussion about a sequel. I've just been lazy to finalize and post it.

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A proper sequel to Wolfenstein 3D, not MachineGames, iD.

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when it comes to Doom after Eternal, I want them to stop.

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I would love it if they made a new Quake (a remake?) like the first one. Throw in Trent Reznor as the composer and dive deep into the lovecraftian style to separate it from modern Doom.

I wonder how Trent would do the music to a Quake game these days. He's scored a lot of movies and stuff since the original game. Would be great to hear a modern take.

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On 6/4/2021 at 2:38 PM, UnclePhil said:

- To turn away from high-speed action loops to a survival horror-influenced pace and aesthetic (Doom 3 is an obvious comparison). I'd love to see a slower-paced game, with a less-superpowered protagonist than Doomguy, but whose firearms feel more powerful against his somewhat more down-to-earth opposition. No Dash, no Meathook, and he won't have 30" biceps to rip-and-tear demons in half, but his guns are reliably deadly in a traditional sense as opposed to Doomguy's arcadey deck of counters. Soft hostiles like human cultists should be messily killed with a single shotgun blast. This would be a very different world from the one where Doom Eternal treats a large-caliber rifle like a spitball straw.

I was thinking this too. As cool as Quake's idea is, It feels super weird whenever I think about the Ranger, he feels really out of place to me. Like the protagonist should've been either a weaker professor character or something, or at least that ancient thor-like powerful character ID software originally envisioned.

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I would love to see a reboot of Hexen or Quake (the first game, not the one with the Stroggs.)

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Posted (edited)

I watch much of the live Doom Eternal streams with Hugo and the most common hints I hear from him are:

- The next game (didn't declare if Doom) will have some different mechanics to Eternal where he thinks some fans would love and others not so much

- He refers Eternal's gameplay to driving a Ferrari where the new direction will feel more like a monster truck

- He feels the meat hook platforming within DLC 2 is a missed opportunity and wished he was implemented earlier

 

This information is too vague for me to assume the next game. I reckon the monster truck feel can fit Quake but it also could match the popular theory that another Doom installment is on the way where you play as the Betrayer with his Hammer.

 

What if it's based in ancient times of modern Doom lore? More heavy impacting melee involved and notably less shooting. Eternal started really embracing timed attacks which may work for melee combat.

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I would like to see id totally remake Return to Castle Wolfenstein, just like Square Enix did for Final Fantasy VII. Add more and different levels to it, but keep the style of fighting the same as the original; throw in some puzzle solving; definitely throw in some more bosses; more enemies; more missions that aren't so obvious to complete. And a lot less linear.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Chaingun Nationalism said:

I understand it's possible that there will be a new quake game, but SHOULD there be?

 

I strongly disagree with the idea that a person who manages to get lost in Quake, of all games, could possibly say anything worth listening to :p

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Thanks I wanted to waste 15 mins listening to "reviews". Good to know Quake 1 looks bad by today's standards, wouldn't have guessed it was otherwise.

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Imagine if they put a "digging" section in a Doom game where you had to shoot like platforms or boxes beneath you to go down to somewhere.

And the mechanic would also be used in a level with floating platforms where you could shoot platforms down to make enemies fall.

I remember writing something about walls and platforms made of energy that could be destroyed with plasma, even if you could use them to reach certain places or as cover against enemies.

 

But really, any new gameplay mechanics, systems, enemies, guns, items, level mechanics, etc.

Expanding the gameplay in some form of another and sometimes that could tickle a specific spot in my brain.

 

Also, since Hugo played 2016 on stream, what if he played SnapMap levels?

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On 6/23/2021 at 8:50 AM, Chaingun Nationalism said:

I understand it's possible that there will be a new quake game, but SHOULD there be?

This is actually the first time I hear someone claiming Quake 4 is the best Quake game :D

 

I don't want to be harsh, but watching this video was definitely a waste of time :-(

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Posted (edited)

Something i don't think was done in Doom before is a minigame or something fun during loading sequences because i assume id Tech can handle that, but then i recall either Namco or SNK signing some patent thingy that could screw anyone else that does something similar.

 

I also remember the Gremlin from Quake Scourge of Armagon and its ability to steal weapons from the player potentially fitting a Marauder type of enemy, that could use like a grappling hook to pull away a gun-in-use from the player.

 

Also dumb idea: Imagine if a Doom game had a score feature like Dakka where certain combat actions feed off the score and hitting certain numbers/records has rewards like extra lives or extra ammo. Maybe some pick ups like the pre-release/alpha/beta treasure items could show up as score pick ups with potential rewards. They could be shiny and floating but in a "cursed artifact" way or something.
Maybe a ROTT/Turok thing of "collect 100 of these and get a life".

 

Spoiler

Sounds weird talking about Doom having taking even more features from other games, but then i remember RoE having a Gravity Gun equivalent in Doom (Levitator) and 2016's MP having a 2 weapon limit, so...

 

Edited by whatup876

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On 3/3/2021 at 9:26 PM, Captain Keen said:

Now that DLC 2 is close to coming out, and Eternal has made a ton of money, what do you want to see id do next?


If nobody in this thread has said RAGE 3, then I wanna be the one to do it. Good games, I want more.

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If Machine Games is working on the new Quake, what is id Software working on? 

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It'd be cool to see id do another classic-style Doom game, basically like Doom 64 (which was a heavily modified Doom II), and have it tie into the current lore the way 64's Lost Levels did

 

But in terms of other IPs, I'm not sure; maybe a new Wolfenstein or even a tongue-in-cheek Commander Keen reboot

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I hope these barrel designs are used at some point:

 

On 8/21/2021 at 1:18 PM, Gemidori said:

It'd be cool to see id do another classic-style Doom game, basically like Doom 64 (which was a heavily modified Doom II), and have it tie into the current lore the way 64's Lost Levels did

I always thought if id wanted to make a more "classic style" Doom, it'd be like those retro indie FPS/"boomer shooter" types of games.

Smaller scale graphics but with other opportunities at the table.

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Doom Eternal's two DLCs are more likely TNT Evilution followed by Plutonia, i think that Doom 64 reboot / lore-like (with more horrifying looking demons and a darker atmosphere) will definitely fit into it?... (just an opinion).

Edited by Proxmin

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The Final Doom comparison is weird since TNT/Plut are noncanon and were just mappacks, even if it's because of a different scale/team/etc (and TAG was like 3/4 chapters while Final Doom is 2 "episodes" on the same 32 maps number thing as 2), but for 64 and horror stuff, i feel like it would have a drastic change from Eternal.

Like, it goes back to people saying Eternal was more goofy than 2016 (colors, classic designs, some glory kills, story tone) but also the usual trends in both games like the "chittin" aesthetic or even its differences from classic Doom's "B-Movie" style.

 

In a way, a story tone and art style/aesthetic are like "languages" and whether it's coming from an artist, what inspired them or the audience's reaction, these things can always evoke something, even if it's from personal viewpoints and subjective.

I feel like if Doom tries horror again, it'd probably have to be seperated from 2016/Eternal because of their tone and art style, so we could get designs that are grittier but also more experimental and paranormal looking.

And the aesthetic of 2016/Eternal is meant to suit these types of games about a "saturday morning cartoon inspired battle between good and evil with a superhero-like marine violently murdering demons of Hell that fear him".

 

Even if 3 had some "alien designs" at the time, we still had some with enough "weirdness" and not a lot of lore explaining how demons function and where they come from. (i still remember a pre-Eternal article someone wrote saying "where did the weird go" about 2016)

Maybe take a few more notes from classic Doom like certain weird textures or bits like Archvile's face tubes.

In a way, the point of making Hell scarier and grittier can complement Hell's power level, which in turn complements Doomguy's i guess, but you can also make it fit a "cool factor" for the edge/risks alone, without going too edgy like Agony.

Experimental designs can mean a lot whether it's "still alien but weirder" stuff trying to be Wayne Barlowe (he once did concept art for the cancelled Doom 4) or designs that tend to have representation/meaning/magic/etc behind them like JRPG/SMT demons.

The real question is how would these enemies play like.

 

Speaking of "language" again, classic Doom's may not "communicate" as much as later entries, hence the games having a history of everyone interpretating them in a lot of ways.

But this is also because 64 in itself was different from 1 and 2, so a reboot Doom 64 would be different from Eternal and 2016.

 

Also, if we get another "Doomed marine" protagonist, imagine the intro cutscene being like a superior kicking you off a helicopter before a mission starts, so you start off as a wimp that can't even fight back his boss like Doomguy in 1's manual.

Then you confront your corrupted boss in a boss fight and do something cool like kick his decapitated head. (maybe make this a gameplay thing like Blood lol)

 

Speaking of designs, maybe some weird anatomy ideas like a demon made of giant heads or something with a Catdog-like anatomy lol.

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22 hours ago, Proxmin said:

Doom Eternal's two DLCs are more likely TNT Evilution followed by Plutonia, i think that Doom 64 reboot / lore-like (with more horrifying looking demons and a darker atmosphere) will definitely fit into it?... (just an opinion).

I always considered TAG to be kind of a Doom 64 do-over since you do get more atmospheric levels, a different soundtrack, creepier monsters (at least Samur anyway), and you get to kill the true leader of the demons (Mother Demon in 64, Davoth in Eternal), plus Doomguy ends up in a sealed-away state of some form in both games

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