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Piranha Fang UGC

Should newbies complete DooM I/II before playing (and making) custom map?

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Posted (edited)

Greetings, so, this question is more of a "does completing vanilla DooM give you a map designing criteria?" than "does completing vanilla DooM make you a good doom player?", because, you know, deathmatch exists, and I think that's the way to get better at DooM. I'm already on map12 on DooM II but i feel like i didn't learned almost nothing, probably it's only me, who knows

Edited by Piranha Fang UGC

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I think at the very least it's important to understand how things behave in vanilla Doom, so you can use that as a basis for when you map or play custom maps. I don't by any means follow classic Doom design principles, but knowing how monsters, physics, and other game properties work is very helpful knowledge. It can also tell you if something custom in a map is not behaving correctly (i.e. troubleshooting a custom map for yourself or others). There are certain map specials in Doom II that are also important to note (Doom 2 MAP07 has the 666 special and Doom 2 MAP30's Icon of Sin). 

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I'd question the merit of making custom maps for a game you can't just play for the fun of playing it. But beyond that: If you're making deathmatch maps, who cares. If you're making singleplayer or co-op levels, then knowing how the various elements of Doom maps work is kind of imperative. That said, playing custom maps will fill in those gaps too.

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Posted (edited)

I'd say no. As long as you study map design and understand how it works, from playing any doom maps, then you can make a decent first wad. I never finished Doom or Doom II, only really got about halfway through, but I like to think my map design is all right at least.

 

EDIT: To clarify, I did watch people beat all doom games and I did finish 2016 and eternal. I just found Doom and Doom 2 to get repetitive after a bit.

Edited by Pompeji

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You need to be familiar with the assets you are using in order to make decent maps. How you get familiar with them is not super important. Do you have to play the original iwads? No. Should you have played some Doom? Yes

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Learning how to map by studying iwads will probably downgrade your skills if anything. :p

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Yes.  I think the best way to learn how things work is by completing the base game.  You learn about item and monster placement, and how to plan out situations.

 

And what not to do.

 

I'm looking at you, MAP29.

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No, you can learn all you need to know from playing custom maps but you should obviously good ones to learn solid mapping fundamentals and ones with a difficulty curve that suits your experience.

 

That said, don't discount the value of learning from the IWADs. I think there is a mapping style particularly in Doom II that has been somewhat lost in the evolution of mapping, which seems to mostly branch from the Final Doom games. Personally, studying Doom II for D2TWiD was the single biggest catalyst for finding my own style.

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10 minutes ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Sunder is the only requisite that I'm aware of.

Later Sunder maps are bad examples for how do you make a map.

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To make maps, not really although you need a decent familiarity with the textures to be able to create decent looking maps.

 

While for playing, I would say that yes, particularly Plutonia. The reality is that most community wads made nowadays are at least on par with it in terms of difficulty, so you won't be able to venture very far if conquering it proves to be too much. The IWADs can still teach valuable lesson here.

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I think the best thing is just to play a variety of maps, both IWAD and custom ones, and ask yourself with each one, "Why did I like this? What sucked about this one?"  Take a critical eye to what made a certain map interesting, or another one boring.  I also wouldn't say that the IWAD maps are any more of a necessity than custom maps are: some of them are great but they're literally the first Doom maps ever made and there's so much about the game we've learned in the intervening almost 3 decades, to say nothing of the tools that are now available.  I'd say at least, though, to mainly focus on vanilla-format maps to begin with, because I think if you play a ton of maps filled with custom monsters and cool scripting and such, well, you can still learn a lot but I think it's instructive to start your learning journey with the basic assets in terms of monsters, textures and map behaviors, since they're quite well-balanced for the most part, easy to work with, and will keep your focus on the basics of combat mechanics and texturing and layout and stuff.  And besides, it's amazing what you can do with the vanilla assets especially once limits are removed.

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i would say yes, you can get familiar to how the official levels are designed, get ideas, make it the right difficulty and use things the way they arnt intended from official wads not made by id like tnt or plutonia 

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Honestly I'd go with some of the better PWADs over the first two games. See what people like and what's popular first, as opposed to the possibility of taking inspiration from Nirvana.

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It makes me feel weird when people say that they are mapping without playing base game. I know I shouldn't feel that way, but still. Old good Doom game can be still good teacher - how monsters work, actions, effects, textures and ect, because they introduced in each episode of Doom 1... Besides old id software guys were first to give us blueprints we use to design modern stuff. At least give a spin to Plutonia, most of modern wads use it as inspiration for difficulty and mean placement. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Piranha Fang UGC said:

Greetings, so, this question is more of a "does completing vanilla DooM give you a map designing criteria?" than "does completing vanilla DooM make you a good doom player?", because, you know, deathmatch exists, and I think that's the way to get better at DooM. I'm already on map12 on DooM II but i feel like i didn't learned almost nothing, probably it's only me, who knows

There is some overlap between deathmatching skills and single player skills, most notably a generally good sense of movement and decent aiming... That being said, single player maps can put you in situations that would never occur in a deathmatch, which is especially true for PWADs that are geared towards a higher difficulty... The IWADs aren't going to put much of a dent in your armour with the exception of perhaps later plutonia maps... Aside of that, the original 2 IWADs made by id should be nothing but a snooze-fest for all but the greenest of doomers, so you can't really expect them to teach you much of anything gameplay-wise...

 

If you want to make single player maps, I'd suggest playing something like Ancient Aliens, which is kind of in the "intermediate" skill segment for single player design, if you find that boring, try SunLust instead...

 

EDIT: Perhaps "does that make you a better player" is the wrong question to ask to begin with, playing single player WADs so you get a sense of what you do or do not want to create is the more fruitful approach..

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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No, there are custom megawads that are much better then Doom/Doom II. Though I would play at least Doom's Episode 1: Knee-deep in the Dead, to get a feel and better understanding about what Doom originally was all about.

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Well, I've never actually finished Doom 2 (maps 25, 30-32) or my beloved Ultimate Doom (E3M7-8, E4M5-8), and I've played hundreds of custom maps and made over a dozen of my own, so...

 

You can just as easily learn to appreciate the game by playing PWADs. If your aim is to get better at the game, you'd probably advance faster by skipping the IWADs altogether and jumping straight into more modern sets, since combat design conventions have come a looong way since '93-94.

 

Regardless, I don't think newbies should do anything in particular. We're all here to have fun after all, so play as you wish.

 

(if you are looking for advice on how to get better at the game, this excellent thread may be of use to you)

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not playing but before making a custom map you shoult at least have a better idea on why the original maps work

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Posted (edited)

Depends on the person. If you're the type of person that simply blasts through the levels, then skipping playing it won't hurt much i guess, but if you spend time observing and are curious on how something in the game is done... do play it and grab your editor afterwards and let the discovery begin.

 

Either way you should experience the engine for a while, the more the merrier.

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Play as many WADs as you can (that is, passively consume content). If some really catch your attention, think hard about what you like about them (actively consume content). Mix and match and practice forever. That's the way of the craftsman.

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I assume that most people got into (classic) Doom by playing Doom and Doom II themselves first. It just seems like a logical place to start even if you're getting into it for the first time now.

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I don’t mean this in an antagonistic way, but why do people who don’t really like the game that much map for it at all? By that I mean, wouldn’t that time be better spent modding a game you love/that resonates more with you?
 

I can’t imagine having gotten into mapping if I got bored of Doom before even reaching the end, which only takes a couple hours total. A big reason I started mapping is because the joy of Doom literally never wore thin, so I wanted to make my own little worlds within it. Granted, I did start playing custom wads before I even began mapping, but that was just icing on the cake.

 

I don’t mean to turn people away of course - a friend of mine who is a brilliant mapper never really liked the base campaigns either. But I know if that was true for me, I wouldn’t be here right now. I guess post-2000 Doom is a different landscape though, where the majority of people are exposed to the game through mods and such. I feel lucky to have started with “pure Doom” though.

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meh, you can even develop your own sourceport without finishing the base game. yes, i've never beat Doom II, and i've never did Thy Flesh Consumed further than E4M2.

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16 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

By that I mean, wouldn’t that time be better spent modding a game you love/that resonates more with you?

One could say that sometimes the "dream game to mod" is too obscure for someone to gain recognition from it or that its tools are too hard to use or even nonexistant so Doom with it's easy to use tools, mass of resources and pre-built-in audience is a good replacement for it. Even if Doom is not their cup of tea, with the power of GZDoom the original game is more of a "pre-made assests pack" you can buy to a free game engine.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I don’t mean to turn people away of course - a friend of mine who is a brilliant mapper never really liked the base campaigns either. But I know if that was true for me, I wouldn’t be here right now. I guess post-2000 Doom is a different landscape though, where the majority of people are exposed to the game through mods and such. I feel lucky to have started with “pure Doom” though.

My mods are usually born out of wanting to make things that I can't find, stepping up and making them myself, It's sort of like wish fulfillment lol

Multiplayer for Action Doom 2?

Doom 3 missing a few QoL improvements?

ZBlood is buggy, rough around the edges, and missing a few maps?

Jumpmaze but with some looter-shooter elements?

SRB2 on Zandronum for a better Multiplayer netcode?

Contra but as 3D FPS?

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