Anyone else not like Final doom?

[sefus]

Maybe i just need to git gud, but for me, Final doom is probably my least favorite doom game, most of the maps are pretty difficult, even on the lowest difficulty setting, and not to mention the horrendous map design, with constant hitscanners, and it's overreliance on chaingunners. It's a miracle if i even manage to make it to the 5th map.

[P41R47]

maybe you are talking about a half of Final Doom especifically?

The Plutonia Experiment, maybe?

 

I ask this because TNT: Evilution, the other half of Final Doom, a two set of 32 maps released together but played individually, is just a little above the difficult of Doom II.

 

If you are talking about Plutonia, i like it for it historical importance, showign how maps and mosters could be designed to be really difficult.

I like mostly the second episode, from map12 to map20, and some maps on the last episode. First episode is kinda boring for me, don't know why. Maybe is the sky that is too bright and doesn't work for contrast. Full bright on most maps is also something i don't like much.

Aside from that, once you realice the gameplay is intentionally made for you to die and try again, rince and repeat until you conquer it, its pretty enjoyable and is probably on of the best full abstract design mapsets out there.

 

On the other half, TNT: Evilution, its my favourite Doom game, Ultimate Doom the second, and Doom 64 the third.

TNT: Evilution went full force on the amospheric side of the spectrum, with maps designs less abstract and leaning more into the semi-realistic.

Some maps are just amazing for the atmosphere they have.

Probably not all maps are at the same level of detail or gameplay. But when TNT: Evilution show it highpoints, they are really high. When a low point is shown, it is probably the lowest in the whole serie. But even tho, that disparity on the quality makes the perfect blend for me.

Gameplay is challenging when it should and not at all unfair or with nasty traps, as much of Plutonia first maps have and throw away most players.

The details and the texture work is functionall, not the best, but there is a really good sense of place on most maps, and that combined with the awesome soundtrac it has, makes for the best and most played of the IWADs for me.

 

Aside from the little review on both halfs of Final Doom, one can't simply ignore the importante of it.

Final Doom decided the branching aesthetic that the whole community followed after them:

-Maps designed with gameplay primary in mind and with relentless challenge against the player and maps desgn that favored that.

-Maps that put the focus first on the atmosphere but without forgotten the gameplay. With a better sense of place and detailing.

 

Those two branches were what the community without noticing followed for really long time, and it was around 2010, or a few years before, that projects that combined both designing schools start to appear.

 

Without Final Doom, probably we wouldn't have mapsets like Alien Vendetta, Scythe, Valiant, Ancient Aliens, Kama Sutra, EPIC 2 or Back To Saturn X.

Probably the above sentence is a little too presuntuous, but for me the importance and quality of Final Doom is unquestionable.

 

But, for certain, its totally cool if you don't like them.

Personally, I'm not too fond of Doom 2 aesthetic choice or maps designs, but they grown on me as really interesting after long time.

And for certain, there are really few mapsets out there that did something similar to Doom 2 aestethically and designing wise.

Edited March 14, 2021 by P41R47

[seed]

Plutonia is best IWAD, fite me :^).

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

That sound like you're talking about Plutonia, and yes, it can be very unfair and challenging, TNT Evilution on the other hand has long maps, but not as challenging as Plutonia, I suggest you play TNT first, and then Plutonia. But, Final doom itself is pretty good, both wads have their weak points and their strong points. Don't be shy of playing in ITYTD or HNTR, if a mapset is hard you can always count on those difficulties.

 

20 minutes ago, seed said:

Plutonia is best IWAD, fite me :^).

For me TNT is better, it's not that challenging and has pretty interesting maps (Habitat can go fuck itself).

[Pechudin]

I guess it's the mindset. I hated Plutonia, but once I accepted that I will die and the focus went from "I want to beat the Megawad" to "hmm, how do I solve this fight", it became more enjoyable. Still haven't PS-ed maps 24+ though, those are balls hard on pistol start.

[StrangerRanger]

I haven't finished TNT or Plutonia yet, sometimes I kinda forget they exist. Plutonia maps are pretty cool, but I love TNT the most.

[Michael Jensen]

The more Doom I play, the more I prefer Final Doom to both Doom and Doom II. 

It definitely has to do with getting better at the game though, especially with Plutonia, but once I could go through both of them without a problem, I realized how much better they are at what they try to do.

 

Plutonia and Doom II mainly focus on the pure gameplay experience, but Plutonia goes far beyond and does it much better, with very consistent level design and well designed, albeit much harder, monster encounters.

 

Doom and TNT pay more attention to the atmosphere, story and creating unique settings and visuals, and again, TNT does it so much better. 

Partially due to the fact that Doom, being the first venture into Doom level design, is much more simplistic. The levels are less detailed and very enclosed compared to the other IWADs. TNT is much more open, features wider variety of level styles than the others, and has infinitely more interesting settings and ideas for maps. Its visuals are more detailed and varied as well.  

 

When I first played it, I didn't like it very much, but once I grew more familiar with the game, Final Doom became my favourite commercially released classic doom experience.  

 

[HombreSal]

The best of TNT is better than the best of all the other IWADs.

[Murdoch]

Am not a fan. TNT is OKish for the time and while Plutonia has solid design I find the gameplay annoying. Finished it once and have no desire to return.

 

But different strokes and all that. People like different things and that's fine. Plutonia was targeted at the ninja players, and I am most certainly not in that demographic.

[SF.]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:50 PM, sefus said:

Maybe i just need to git gud, but for me, Final doom is probably my least favorite doom game, most of the maps are pretty difficult, even on the lowest difficulty setting, and not to mention the horrendous map design, with constant hitscanners, and it's overreliance on chaingunners. It's a miracle if i even manage to make it to the 5th map.

 

Looks like you're talking specifically about Plutonia. It's a huge step up in difficulty from Doom II. It was meant for those who had beaten Doom 1 and 2 on Ultra Violence. You're also supposed to play TNT Evilution (the other half of final doom) first, as it's a lot easier.  

 

Plutonia is not kind to players on their first playthrough. It requires a lot of trial and error to figure out the right strategies. There's no shame in savescumming on your first attempt. Once you have learnt the maps, it gets a lot easier. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by paturn

[Doomkid]

Just to throw out my 2 cents: I like Final Doom a lot on the whole, they're both fine megawads.. BUTT, it does feel kinda unjust (to me personally) that they have been bestowed with eternal life via being technically "official". Other megawads that are arguably better from the same era get far less attention just because they didn't win the Final Doom Lottery. That's just how life goes though ain't it?

[Nine Inch Heels]

I think if it's more a notion you get while playing plutonia... Yeah... I can see how it's a good deal more difficult than doom2... I suppose if you can beat doom2 on ultra violence, and you want roughly the same difficulty out of plutonia, then hurt me plenty or hey, not too rough might be the way to go...

 

One thing to note is that plutonia in particular is meant to be a step up in difficulty by design, but history has shown time and again that, even though it is mean-spirited, it's still fair and very beatable with enough practice...

[BoxY]

Plutonia I will always respect because to me it's one of the earliest wads that was really proto-modern in design, where the creators put a lot of thought into things like monster placement based on what they're good at and how their abilities can be put to use in unusual ways, building the shape of the environment around the gameplay, exploiting specific mechanics etc. and many of those basic ideas are very widely copied today while others fell by the wayside (mostly for good reasons because they're annoying). I think a lot of mappers end up being inspired by Plutonia even when they don't realise it, because the ideas are so deeply ingrained in other people's styles that you can't really avoid them. TNT I can generally skip because I feel like most of the gameplay is insufferably boring and lame but it does show off one of the first attempts at the visionary kind of map design where the map is specifically supposed to be large and adventurous with a distinct sense of place, and occasionally the "TNT atmosphere" that people talk about does creep up on me a bit. So I feel like even if you don't like Final Doom you have to at least respect its immense influence on almost every pwad that came after.

[Andromeda]

9 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I think if it's more a notion you get while playing plutonia... Yeah... I can see how it's a good deal more difficult than doom2... I suppose if you can beat doom2 on ultra violence, and you want roughly the same difficulty out of plutonia, then hurt me plenty or hey, not too rough might be the way to go...

Having completed Plutonia on HNTR and UV (both from a pistol start), I'd say the difference between them is somewhat diluted. The only encounters I remember as being considerably easier are MAP09's final room and the HK sandwich on MAP25, where the HKs are replaced with imps on HNTR and thus it becomes a complete cakewalk. Three levels (MAP32, MAP21 and MAP30) don't even have skill settings implemented, but otherwise I'd say Plutonia on UV is slightly harder and significantly more grindy. For a new player with no foreknowledge of the levels, I'd suggest starting with ITYTD or playing with regular saves. Just a little nitpick :)

[HQDefault]

I assume we're talking about both Plutonia and TNT Evilution.

 

And honestly, yeah.

 

I liked the first third of TNT, there's some decent maps sprinkled in after that, but largely TNT Evilution just felt really confusing and unpolished. I appreciate the ambition, and it's really cool to see early efforts to make spaces in the Doom engine that look like actual places and not just abstract video game rooms, but it's just not all the way there.

 

And I can see why some people like Plutonia but I just find it really annoying.

[Juza]

It's always the same tbf. Newbies will hate Final Doom because it's too hard for them, then as they get more skilled they realize it's not as hard or bad as they thought. Was the same for me.

[geekmarine]

Not too long ago, I made it a specific goal to sit down and play all the way through Final Doom.  I really enjoyed TNT, and for once in my life, I actually really made an effort on Plutonia.  I actually realized that with a little patience, I had the skill to slog through Plutonia.  However, I confess I gave up on MAP30.  It's just too friggin' nuts for me, to be honest.

[Azuris]

 

 

4 hours ago, Juza said:

It's always the same tbf. Newbies will hate Final Doom because it's too hard for them, then as they get more skilled they realize it's not as hard or bad as they thought. Was the same for me.

 

Hm no :)

You can be good at Doom and still hate Plutonia.

 

P41R47 has written it perfectly:

 

On 3/14/2021 at 4:41 PM, P41R47 said:

Aside from that, once you realice the gameplay is intentionally made for you to die and try again, rince and repeat until you conquer it, its pretty enjoyable and is probably on of the best full abstract design mapsets out there.

 

 

 

Plutonia has a Game Design that only fits a certain Audience, meanwhile the Rest of the official Doom Games aren't designed the Trial and Error Way.

 

I am right now replaying Evilution since i don't remember^^

Map Design is really nice and i have much Fun.

Maybe i'll use the Textures for future Maps.

I can recommend to play it if you had fun with Doom, Doom 2 and 64.

 

 

18 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Other megawads that are arguably better from the same era get far less attention just because they didn't win the Final Doom Lottery. That's just how life goes though ain't it?

 

As i am a bit lazy right now to search it out on the Smartphone :)

I know there are Lists out there of Megawads,

maybe you could do a little recommendation Video of WADs of that Era similiar to Evilution.

- The Final Doom Lottery Losers

 

And just for Fun to end my Post, my Plutonia Picture from the other Thread :>

 

[thelazyqdude]

Might as well have just made a poll.

[CorianderCastor]

It's been said many times (and many ways,) but Evilution has higher highs and lower lows.

[pcorf]

TNT is fun and abstract. It has mostly good maps but some ugly ones too. Best maps MAP12, 13, 18, 29, 31. Plutonia, much more consistent when it comes to theme and more challenging, oh the Chaingun guys and Arch Vile maze are highlights. I like the use of Ultimate Doom music in some of the maps. Best maps MAP06, 12, 22, 27, 32. Even though MAP06 of Plutonia is named Baron's Lair, there are no Hell Knights on HMP, only Easy and UV.