[Vanilla Hexen][10 maps hub]Lost Luxury (Now on /idgames!)

[Alper002]

2 minutes ago, Mangudai said:

Thinking that I should probably check every wall there too, made me quit the wad.

If only you waited a little longer...

Whatever, Can't blame you for not liking what you don't like!

Just saying, the ultimate weapon isn't mandatory, that's why I hid the pieces :P

 

Might adjust the glitter bridge jump a little more though, in it's current state it's probably more obtuse than the initial version... which probably isn't good when the rest of the hub (aside from the somewhat intentionally obtuse secret maps) is nowhere near that obtuse lol

[Mangudai]

I will try again this wad later this year. ;)

Edit: have you intended it to be an enigma? Because I don't remember if the bridge appears as soon as you use the two levers. What made me go "crazy" is the layout of the starting building. It may sound silly, but I saw three paths and I thought it meant there were three different levers in three different building.

Add on top of that that when you use the first two levers you have a teleport right near and this can cause an headache for sure (note: I used the teleport and then used the noclip to check the teleport with the remaining grates to see where I was supposed to go, then I realized that you didn't intend the player to get there for a while - the gated teleport brings you to some odd temple with lot of serpents)

 

According to me, the way to hone the bridge is the following:
1) Move it from the side to the middle area.
2) Alert the player that a "bridge of light" has appeared and show it to the player with a screen.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Mangudai

[Alper002]

15 hours ago, Mangudai said:

show it to the player with a screen.

Can't do that, vanilla Hexen is restrictive! :P

 

The glitter bridge is triggered by a walkover trigger really close to it. In the original version the glitter bridge was just there, and a bit too easy to pass by without thinking IMO. The way I'm planning to get around it is to have it BOTH be visible and have that arbitrary walkover trigger spawn in some more bits of glitter bridge to make it more noticeable.

 

Edit:
I don't want to double post any more times so I'll use this post to mention that I've released another update. This one's pretty tiny, and I don't think I'll change much more after this. download is in OP.

Changes:

*Fixed small, hardly noticable collision problems for GZDoom & Zandronum
?Adjusted that glitter bridge again, to be kinda like the initial version and the newer version at the same time.

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Alper002

[PVS]

For me it was a very unusual and long journey, played it three evenings in a row, I don't know how the guys here went through it in a couple of hours, I played more than 6, without hurry, hehe. In my opinion - this is more a puzzle wad than an intense action, but it created its own atmosphere, I really like it. Most memorable map in the night forest 'Haunted Overgrowth'. There are also many interesting and funny scripting moments: how a large gem is stamped into a small one just made me laugh, puzzle with light on map-3, with big gems on map-6 and final lift scripting effect turned out very unusual.

Alper002, as far as I understand, you set a goal not to exceed the limits of the original engine? I can't even imagine how long it took, I have never seen such large sectors and areas in vanilla HeXen. I specifically tested the first 3 maps on a DOS engine, it was playback my 1.5 hour vanilla demo record on CHexen, which no has limit removing/risings - everything went without crashes, impressive, I was sure that on map-2 a crash should occur, heh

Also, I used the first LoLu0 version on a fully vanilla compatible port and did not notice any technical problems, all maps works fine. Some small errors with key door on map-4 and big gems puzzle on map-6 you have already corrected in next version, as far as I can see. But you still have one bad moment, if you're interested: image replacement CHESSC, CHESSM, CHESSALL is not correct, vanilla engine checks and tries to load them as images, they cannot be zero-sized, which leads to the crash with error 'Bad V_DrawPatch' on the final screen. If you really need to replace FINALE3 image, then you need to replace these CHESSC, CHESSM, CHESSALL also with your images, I don't see any other options, because this moment is hardcoded in vanilla engine.

Thanks for your hobby and time spent on this wad, I'm glad what vanilla HeXen now has these interesting and long journey!
 

[zokum]

I have never tested ZokumBSP on Hexen maps, so there might be something broken in there. I have tried to make it so that when things break, the default settings should be the most compatible ones. This actually makes some maps that build incorrectly in Zennode build correctly without resorting to parameters.

Make sure you use the latest version, one older version had a blockmap optimization that is buggy in boom and some ports that use boom code. Many ports have fixed this boom problem, but I think some still have issues with this optimization.

[Alper002]

20 hours ago, PVS said:

Alper002, as far as I understand, you set a goal not to exceed the limits of the original engine? I can't even imagine how long it took, I have never seen such large sectors and areas in vanilla HeXen. I specifically tested the first 3 maps on a DOS engine, it was playback my 1.5 hour vanilla demo record on CHexen, which no has limit removing/risings - everything went without crashes, impressive, I was sure that on map-2 a crash should occur, heh

The set was entirely designed around the vanilla limitations. It's hard to measure how much time the map took, I made everything in about the order in which they happen progression-wise (with a few exceptions). The few crashes I did experience during development were for the most part unrelated to visplanes.

Big sectors don't take many visplanes, and with the rocky and relatively simple geometry there wasn't much to crash with... aside from the blockmap. Were it not for me trying to make the large maps I did I wouldn't have tried switching to zokumBSP!

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But you still have one bad moment, if you're interested: image replacement CHESSC, CHESSM, CHESSALL is not correct, vanilla engine checks and tries to load them as images, they cannot be zero-sized, which leads to the crash with error 'Bad V_DrawPatch' on the final screen. If you really need to replace FINALE3 image, then you need to replace these CHESSC, CHESSM, CHESSALL also with your images, I don't see any other options, because this moment is hardcoded in vanilla engine.

Thank you for reporting this! I've only been testing in chocolate, so this is good to be aware of. They'll probably all be replaced with tiny pictures that look identical to the background, I don't think I have any good ideas for how the endpic should differ with each class.

 

I also probably don't need to have CHESSALL in there at all now that I think about it, since multiplayer is unsupported.

 

13 hours ago, zokum said:

I have never tested ZokumBSP on Hexen maps, so there might be something broken in there. I have tried to make it so that when things break, the default settings should be the most compatible ones. This actually makes some maps that build incorrectly in Zennode build correctly without resorting to parameters.

The default settings actually don't work right in Hexen. Using the blockmap parameter which is supposed to remove non-collidable lines from the blockmap also makes the map teleport action (action 74) stop working if on a regular walkover line, which is pretty important for functionality. I should probably have reported this instead of worked around this, but oh well.

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Make sure you use the latest version, one older version had a blockmap optimization that is buggy in boom and some ports that use boom code. Many ports have fixed this boom problem, but I think some still have issues with this optimization.

I've been using version 1.1, is that the latest or are there newer versions I'm unaware of? I was also already aware of the problems the lack of a zero-header could cause, are you referring to anything else?

 

---

In other news, I got some help and found out how to prevent that weird crash in GZDoom on the map-side. Yay!

 

At this point I'm almost feeling confident enough to make and release one last update, and then go for /idgames...

[PVS]

For me, Chocolate 2.3 go in crash with 'Bad V_DrawPatch' error after your last finale screen, for you - Chocolate 3.x not crash? This is strange. I think you can try to cut a little piece from your custom FINALE3 image (2x2, 8x8, experimentally) and use it for CHESSC, CHESSM, CHESSALL, no one will notice this dot, heh. Engine place CHESSALL on x=20 y=0, CHESSC & CHESSM on x=60 y=0 in 320x200 coord's, but I have not tested this option on practice, but it should work.

Better leave CHESSALL, because I wanted to ask you - why you decided not to do coop? Add coop starts, weapons and a little more ammo and artifacts on maps, with coop flag individually - this is one evening of work, but I think, your wad will play interesting in coop, why deprive him of that? Or is it because, projectiles from several players start to exceed engine limits on this maps? For limits, there are Hexen-Plus (DOS), Crispy/Russian Hexen with limit removing/risings, this is not a problem, in my opinion.

Map-4: how to get in area with Defender artifact? This is sector 890 in version 3, I can't figure it out looking into the editor and ACS, reveal this secret. Maybe you lost this area?

Last question - why hub zero? hehe

[zokum]

I haven't looked at the code, but I thought the removal of non-collidable lines wouldn't happen if the linedef has a type/special. Hexen have a different system, so that might be what is tricking it. Basically it has a no type in the "doom format" field.

There's a few tweaks and additions if you build it from source, but nothing major. Nothing that should affect you.

[Alper002]

20 hours ago, PVS said:

For me, Chocolate 2.3 go in crash with 'Bad V_DrawPatch' error after your last finale screen, for you - Chocolate 3.x not crash? This is strange.

Yeah, very strange that an older version of chocolate is more accurate to vanilla...

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Better leave CHESSALL, because I wanted to ask you - why you decided not to do coop? Add coop starts, weapons and a little more ammo and artifacts on maps, with coop flag individually - this is one evening of work, but I think, your wad will play interesting in coop, why deprive him of that? Or is it because, projectiles from several players start to exceed engine limits on this maps? For limits, there are Hexen-Plus (DOS), Crispy/Russian Hexen with limit removing/risings, this is not a problem, in my opinion.

Co-op has it's own set of concerns and I'm not really the kind of person who plays much co-op to begin with. You have got me convinced that I probably should try putting co-op in there at least.

I don't think there are any major limit-related problems involved with adding co-op actually... The main problem is functionality, or it might just be my lack of knowledge on Hexen co-op :P

Wouldn't there be issues with the presence of multiple instances of the same puzzle item, for example? That's something I've heard about a few times, I think Map 4 and Map 6 would have most trouble if that were the case.

That and map 6's puzzle relying on player 1's voodoo doll... but I feel like I should be able to make a workaround for that, assuming there aren't other issues.

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Map-4: how to get in area with Defender artifact? This is sector 890 in version 3, I can't figure it out looking into the editor and ACS, reveal this secret. Maybe you lost this area?

Oh, that one's perfectly accessible...

Spoiler

All the tools you need to reach it are behind the ice wall close by ;)

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Last question - why hub zero? hehe

I didn't really think about this, I must've put cluster 0 because I felt like counting from zero. :P

Edited March 24, 2021 by Alper002

[PVS]

Coop, I can only advise on the basis of my experience: main - several players need more ammunition and artifacts, possible add them on maps with coop flag individually to isolate them from single game, also people play coop for fun (as optional) and often die foolishly, after reborn map does not reload and need that players able to pick up something and not run empty. HeXen coop not very optimized even in iwad, initially does not imply the normal ability to start coop (also as a single game) somewhere in the middle of the hub, normal gameplay is possible only from hub beginning, there is nothing we can do. Puzzles moments even in iwad maps sometimes provoke players to act only together, which sometimes turns out funny and stupid, this is "normal", heh.

More optimized coop is only possible if it is planned as soon as the maps begins developed, so don't waste a lot of time on it now, when your maps are ready, just let it be possible to try coop as it is. Also, I never paid attention to what the nodebuilder thinks about more quantity of things, pay attention to this, especially for map-2, where you are close to the 65K blockmap limit.

Map-4: I still can't get into this Defender area, don't see anywhere where you change sectors height with tag 34, only switch that you already have in this area and only serves to exit from it works with this tag. But okay, since you are sure, then I don’t see something somewhere, but it seems to me that this area is not available on this map.
 

[TheOrganGrinder]

So I've been having a lot of fun with this over the past couple of days; I'm playing on medium difficulty so was able to pick up the staff pieces scattered throughout the main levels, but I also found and cleared all of the secret maps to pick up the additional pieces there, too.  I'm enjoying this, and I'm just about ready to press on to the last couple of maps, through the portal that telegraphs itself as the point of no return.  I just have one question before I press forward: in the Overcooled Factory, is there an area that's intended to be only accessible one time, when a particular script is running and the environment is changing in a number of ways simultaneously?  If the answer is "yes," then I think I've missed my opportunity to explore and loot that area; otherwise, I'll go back to figuring out how I'm supposed to open it up.

[Alper002]

1 hour ago, TheOrganGrinder said:

I just have one question before I press forward: in the Overcooled Factory, is there an area that's intended to be only accessible one time, when a particular script is running and the environment is changing in a number of ways simultaneously?  If the answer is "yes," then I think I've missed my opportunity to explore and loot that area; otherwise, I'll go back to figuring out how I'm supposed to open it up.

Are you referring to ice melty bit? I think I can say the answer is yes? A secret area there is definitely perma-missable. That said, the way you actually "miss" it is mostly unrelated to the transformation of the area(aside from the fact that the opening to it is revealed when you transform the area), so I'm not sure what's the right answer.

 

@PVS

So what you're telling me is I don't need to think too hard about making the maps function perfectly? :P

I'll test things out via chocolate's solo-net feature, and follow the advice on item placement :)

[TheOrganGrinder]

That's the area I was talking about yeah - it stuck out to me because as far as I can tell it's the only area that can be permanently missed in the first eight maps, which had me thinking "the author hasn't done anything like this elsewhere in the WAD so I must be doing something wrong."  Good to know that it's not me being oblivious!  I'll probably play through the maps again as a different class and pay closer attention to what's going on there so that I can understand what I did to miss it this time.

[PVS]

4 hours ago, Alper002 said:

So what you're telling me is I don't need to think too hard about making the maps function perfectly? :P

Sure, especially since the "perfect" for each person is different. Also, you can add more monsters in coop, replace the weak with stronger ones (since at least 2 players in game), add more weapons points, even more action and drive, as a result - you can get a completely different gameplay vs single version, will have 2in1 in your wad, decide youself, heh

Do not forget 'Mystic Ambit', this artifact is special for coop.
 

[Manhs]

Finished it and it was really enjoyable and fun! Except some areas who were too big for the amount of enemies i think, even for the atmosphere you wanted...(like the desert), needed maybe a little more decorations for some areas but except that, it was really cool, i like the fact you used some real puzzles and not only switch ^^
Good wad anyway! The hub system hexen-like was there and it was well made, not linear i mean
And the hordes in some areas make it fun (especially at a part where i had the bloodscourge, rip hordes :D
 

[Alper002]

Well, I've done something for co-op now. Won't be anywhere near as challenging as single-player but a breezy co-op session sounds like fun to me :)

Here's the changelog for the new version, whose download as usual is in the OP:

*Fixed the GZDoom crash near the beginning (still recommend using software renderer just for clarity in that foggy library though)
*Fixed the crash that happens at the ending on the original executable (if playing a class other than fighter, or if playing co-op)
*Added Co-op starts
*Added items to co-op
*adjusted some prints to printbolds for better co-op
*Moved up a torch that after all this time WAS STILL ON THE GROUND!
*Fixed a potential softlock in MAP06 that nobody reported :D
*Added tiny super-strong earthquakes to the pillars when they raise on the final map (you could softlock yourself by standing on the pillars and block a teleport)

I think I'm gonna try getting this on /idgames now.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

On 3/24/2021 at 12:55 PM, Alper002 said:

I don't think there are any major limit-related problems involved with adding co-op actually... The main problem is functionality, or it might just be my lack of knowledge on Hexen co-op :P

Wouldn't there be issues with the presence of multiple instances of the same puzzle item, for example? That's something I've heard about a few times, I think Map 4 and Map 6 would have most trouble if that were the case.

In co-op the puzzle items stay and can be re-collected/collected by multiple players so if you have puzzles that involve "find X copies of a single puzzle item scattered around the hub" then they can potentially be cheesed in co-op.  Deathkings of the Dark Citadel works around this by having some co-op specific scripts that barricade the niches where the items are put until each puzzle item has actually been accessed for the first time.

I'm not aware of any other issues.

[Alper002]

I just noticed that the wad is now on /idgames! It seems like it's been there for a few days, though. I must've not been paying close enough attention.

Only change in this version is that one switch looks different so that jumping off it can't lead you to potentially perform a softlock.

 

Thanks for the bug reports and feedback everyone!

[PVS]

Thank you, for this hobby, not many good vanilla maps for Hexen exist, in recent years - this is quite a rarity.

Small question - what parameters did you use for ZokumBSP for this Hexen maps? I was interested in this nodebuilder, as an alternative to my current ZenNode. On LoLu0, LoLu3 I recorded vanilla demos with a total duration of about 10 hours, did not notice any problems with compatibility, all demos are played normally on DOS exe's and vanilla Win ports (maybe this information will be interesting to someone).

P.S. NaNoHexen 2019: I'm stuck during the transition from 18 to 19 map, I see funny messages about map re-init by F12 key in single game, but nothing helps, heh. Map init by F12 key individual behavior of Chocolate Hexen, I'm pretty sure what this is a bug. Original engine does not knows nothing about this behavior and I do not see options for reset player's inventory in this way. If you are interested in this moment, check it on vanilla game.

[Alper002]

9 hours ago, PVS said:

P.S. NaNoHexen 2019: I'm stuck during the transition from 18 to 19 map, I see funny messages about map re-init by F12 key in single game, but nothing helps, heh. Map init by F12 key individual behavior of Chocolate Hexen, I'm pretty sure what this is a bug. Original engine does not knows nothing about this behavior and I do not see options for reset player's inventory in this way. If you are interested in this moment, check it on vanilla game.

Oh yeah, I'm aware of that... Don't feel like updating nanohexen 2019 though cause I kinda want it to stay in my past...

Should probably put that fact in the thread OP at least for those who end up wanting to play it on the original executable (Edit:Done that now)

The way to get past without using the F12 thing is to heal yourself so that you can even use cheats, and then use the "init" cheat. Yes, mandatory cheating :P

 

Quote

Small question - what parameters did you use for ZokumBSP for this Hexen maps? I was interested in this nodebuilder, as an alternative to my current ZenNode. On LoLu0, LoLu3 I recorded vanilla demos with a total duration of about 10 hours, did not notice any problems with compatibility, all demos are played normally on DOS exe's and vanilla Win ports (maybe this information will be interesting to someone).

Before the zandronum issue was found, I used these parameters, which work perfectly fine in vanilla:

-bcr-sz=0 %FI -o %FI

Afterwards, I used these:

-bcr-sz=1 %FI -o %FI

The one tiny difference is the header.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Alper002