The Ancient Gods 2 - Impressions and Story Spoilers

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

 

3 minutes ago, BetaMarine said:

Welp, no arguments there I suppose. I do agree with people saying 2016 is the overall better experience, but I find myself coming back to Doom Eternal more, I mean playing 2016 without the dash feels empty:

I know that. My biggest complaint about 2016 is about how slow it is, and the Dash would definitely improve it. But everything else in Eternal seems like a downgrade.
I was more critical of 2016 when it came out and more positive of Eternal. But after replaying both, my opinions between them swapped completely.

[jazzmaster9]

38 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

By who? I'm seeing a lot of people calling this a letdown when compared to TAG1, which already had a lot of people calling it inferior to the base game, which even had people calling it inferior to 2016.
 

A lot? Most of the people I see praise Doom Eternal. the general gaming community love eternal (mostly, since the Marauder is mostly hated even there)

Funnily enough most of the hate I see is mostly here in this forum.

[BetaMarine]

1 minute ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

 

I know that. My biggest complaint about 2016 is about how slow it is, and the Dash would definitely improve it. But everything else in Eternal seems like a downgrade.
I was more critical of 2016 when it came out and more positive of Eternal. But after replaying both, my opinions between them swapped completely.

My only thing I like abt the new doom games is them bringing more people into the old-school FPS genre, so they can discover shit like DUSK or ULTRAKILL

[BerserkerNoir]

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Okay... But then how does that work with the revelation that the Dark Lord is actually God and that the Doom Slayer is basically his creation?

 

Am I supposed to understand that Doomguy is God?

Yes, lets say its the equivalent to Lucifer but he actually usurped the place of the Creator.
And Yes the Slayer is basically a godlike since the Divinity Machine was build with a Fragment of the Dark Lord.
 

[BetaMarine]

4 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

 

I know that. My biggest complaint about 2016 is about how slow it is, and the Dash would definitely improve it.

May I recommend a Quake mod called Slayers Testament? It combines the best aspects of Doom Eternal and 2016 into one. So you have the dash and less reliance on flame-belch and chainsaw. (It’s a one hit kill like 2016)

[Egg Boy]

Just now, Rudolph said:

Okay... But then how does that work with the revelation that the Dark Lord is actually God and that the Doom Slayer is basically his creation?

 

Am I supposed to understand that Doomguy is God?

Well, no, but he is frequently compared to a god throughout Eternal and the DLC, by both the codex, and other humans. He was also put into a machine literally called the "divinity machine." But in Doom Eternal's lore, gods are physical beings that can be killed, so its not really much of a stretch to say the Slayer is comparable to a god within the game's universe. He's certainly killed them.

[Rudolph]

1 minute ago, BerserkerNoir said:

Yes, lets say its the equivalent to Lucifer but he actually usurped the place of the Creator.
And Yes the Slayer is basically a godlike since the Divinity Machine was build with a Fragment of the Dark Lord.

...Oh.

 

Remember when Doomguy used to be just a marine who survived Hell through a combination of wits and sheer luck? I sure do.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

Just now, BetaMarine said:

May I recommend a Quake mod called Slayers Testament? It combines the best aspects of Doom Eternal and 2016 into one. So you have the dash and less reliance on flame-belch and chainsaw. (It’s a one hit kill like 2016)

Ah yes I have heard of it. Been on my "to play list" for some time.
I think it unironically looks better than Doom Eternal. Not because "old is better than new" memery, but because it apparently feels more fast and raw like how a Doom game should be.
Guess I'm gonna finally download and play it instead of this DLC.

[BetaMarine]

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

...Oh.

 

Remember when Doomguy used to be just a marine who survived Hell through a combination of wits and sheer luck? I sure do.

He still is, he got his godlike powers after surviving hell and proving himself worthy to the makyrs. So yes, for a time Doomguy was just a marine who survived hell through a combination of wits and sheer luck.

[jazzmaster9]

I keep hearing this " how a Doom game should be" but no one seems to have a universal consensus of what this is, yet use it as "Valid Criticism" for Eternal Being bad and Id for "ruining" the series..

[BetaMarine]

2 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I keep hearing this " how a Doom game should be" but no one seems to have a universal consensus of what this is, yet use it as "Valid Criticism" for Eternal Being bad and Id for "ruining" the series..

I would say “different strokes for different folks” but then people will go on a debate on subjectivity vs objectivity so I stay clear away abt it. If someone does say their thoughts are “valid criticism” I leave them be. Makes things easier.

[BerserkerNoir]

11 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I keep hearing this " how a Doom game should be" but no one seems to have a universal consensus of what this is, yet use it as "Valid Criticism" for Eternal Being bad and Id for "ruining" the series..

Theres a huge difference between pointing Issues with something, and blatantly hating the game for no reason at all.
TAG 2 had a lot of potential, but I guess the COVID thing had to do with its development and the Deadline of Release before Year One, either that or they just went nuts with the plot without thinking about it.
The Gameplay will have mixed reviews since not everyone plays on PC to enjoy the highest difficulty with a lot of Challenge, they also heard the console players.
 

Edited March 19, 2021 by BerserkerNoir

[JXC]

2 hours ago, Quasar said:

@DuckReconMajor I am with you 100%. Total bullshit fight. I quit in phase 2 when he was reading my inputs to hit me with his dash attack. Too much. The window to stagger him is crazy small and doesn't match at all with his huge sweeping animations that ought to leave him wide open. It's just more Marauder-style bullshit with an impervious shield.

 

If they don't fix this, then the game has been ruined for me.

It took me I think 1 1/2 hours to beat the Dark Lord on HNTR. I beat him with mostly the Super Shotgun after stunning him with the hammer. I also shot the phantoms with the SSG!

[jazzmaster9]

6 minutes ago, BetaMarine said:

I would say “different strokes for different folks” but then people will go on a debate on subjectivity vs objectivity so I stay clear away abt it. If someone does say their thoughts are “valid criticism” I leave them be. Makes things easier.

I've seen this song and dance, every time new Doom Content is released so its something im used to by now.

 

I just find it funny that a game can be considered bad just because the devs didn't read their mind on how exactly the game should be made

[DooM Bear]

2 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I keep hearing this " how a Doom game should be" but no one seems to have a universal consensus of what this is, yet use it as "Valid Criticism" for Eternal Being bad and Id for "ruining" the series..

 

I might be alone here but to me a good DooM game is like a game of chess. You know the pieces (weapons + enemies), you know the rules (mechanics) and a good game is seeing those things being used in interesting and exciting ways.

 

While I Definitely don’t think Eternal “ruined DooM” (I thinks it’s a pretty decent game! Just not as good as 2016, 1 or 2), the issue for me is it just kept adding new stuff constantly from start to finish.

 

Not saying new additions are bad but Eternal added way to many, too frequently for me personally.

 

Hope that makes sense :-)

[BluePineapple72]

1 minute ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I've seen this song and dance, every time new Doom Content is released so its something im used to by now.

 

I just find it funny that a game can be considered bad just because the devs didn't read their mind on how exactly the game should be made

Precisely. “Doom” at this point is really a subjective thing. To many people, it’s a hardcore light-speed action game about demon slaughter, but to others it’s a survival horror game. 
 

My take is that Doom 2016 nearly managed to meet the balance of horror and action that the original two games did. Eternal forgoes the atmosphere entirely and goes down the strictly action path, and I think it suffers for that. Funnily enough, I think Doom 3 and Eternal are both equally doom, as they both forgot major elements of the originals and B-Line towards two separate interpretations of Doom. 2016 sits in between them. 
 

To help this thread get back to AG, I think that it’s more of the same of Eternal, which I like, but I think the story is dumb and sloppy. I like it. Enough said. 

[BetaMarine]

1 minute ago, DooM Bear said:

 

I might be alone here but to me a good DooM game is like a game of chess. You know the pieces (weapons + enemies), you know the rules (mechanics) and a good game is seeing those things being used in interesting and exciting ways.

 

While I Definitely don’t think Eternal “ruined DooM” (I thinks it’s a pretty decent game! Just not as good as 2016, 1 or 2), the issue for me is it just kept adding new stuff constantly from start to finish.

 

Not saying new additions are bad but Eternal added way to many, too frequently for me personally.

 

Hope that makes sense :-)

That seems to be the common consensus. Doom eternal is a good game but the vast majority prefers 2016, Hugo Martin has stated himself that they have not made what he thinks to be a really good Doom game. Unlike what most people think, Hugo is actually quite humble in that regard. I did read that the next ID game should be smaller scaled and perhaps that would be good for Hugo and the team. Than again, 2016 was a smaller-scaled game so perhaps that’s what they should aim for.

[Egg Boy]

7 minutes ago, BetaMarine said:

That seems to be the common consensus. Doom eternal is a good game but the vast majority prefers 2016, Hugo Martin has stated himself that they have not made what he thinks to be a really good Doom game. Unlike what most people think, Hugo is actually quite humble in that regard. I did read that the next ID game should be smaller scaled and perhaps that would be good for Hugo and the team. Than again, 2016 was a smaller-scaled game so perhaps that’s what they should aim for.

I don't remember Hugo EVER stating he thought Eternal was not a really good doom game. I have heard him say that they have not made their best Doom game yet, but that's a completely different implication. Also, I have heard him, on multiple occasions, say that Doom Eternal is the best combat they have ever designed. I also don't really see the "vast majority prefers 2016" thing. From what I understand there are 2 sects of people, those who prefer 2016 and those who prefer Eternal and its pretty evenly split. In fact, I'd say I see more negativity about this game within these forums than I do anywhere else. Not that its wrong to criticize, or even dislike the game. But to say the vast majority prefer 2016 is a stretch. Then again, this is from the perspective of someone who really liked Doom Eternal, so perhaps I am biased and only see what I want to.

[DooM Bear]

34 minutes ago, Egg Boy said:

I don't remember Hugo EVER stating he thought Eternal was not a really good doom game. I have heard him say that they have not made their best Doom game yet, but that's a completely different implication. Also, I have heard him, on multiple occasions, say that Doom Eternal is the best combat they have ever designed. I also don't really see the "vast majority prefers 2016" thing. From what I understand there are 2 sects of people, those who prefer 2016 and those who prefer Eternal and its pretty evenly split. In fact, I'd say I see more negativity about this game within these forums than I do anywhere else. Not that its wrong to criticize, or even dislike the game. But to say the vast majority prefer 2016 is a stretch. Then again, this is from the perspective of someone who really liked Doom Eternal, so perhaps I am biased and only see what I want to.

 

I think you are both possibly correct :-)

 

We will probably never know (unless someone is lucky enough to sit down with Hugo at the pub one day) and I imagine all creators have things they love in their work and other things they wish they could have done better. No matter how good the end result is, if it’s your baby you are going to find things you wish you did differently :-)

 

As for the “vast majority prefer 2016” thing, @Sergeant_Mark_IV Put up the steam user review scores earlier in the thread:

 

“2016: 96% positive
Eternal: 90% positive
TAG1: 74% positive.
TAG2 is currently at 86%, but as the second wave of people that were less hyped plays it, it's expected to lower.”

 

So this means 1 in 10 people that played Eternal (base game) didn’t think it was great while only ~1 in 20 didn’t like 2016. 

 

While I definitely wouldn’t call it anything close to a vast majority, it is, to my mind, definitely some solid evidence to suggest people preferred 2016 over Eternal :-)

[jazzmaster9]

1 minute ago, DooM Bear said:

definitely some solid evidence to suggest people preferred 2016 over Eternal

we also need to put into account that Doom 2016 has been out for a LONG while and Eternal has only been out a year. Opinions can definitely change over time. So I wouldn't really call this Solid as of the moment.

[Doom64hunter]

1 hour ago, BetaMarine said:

He still is, he got his godlike powers after surviving hell and proving himself worthy to the makyrs. So yes, for a time Doomguy was just a marine who survived hell through a combination of wits and sheer luck.

The ending of TAG2 quite literally spells it out that Doomguy was created by Davoth.

 

Honestly, the more I think about the lore the less sense it makes. You pretty much have to ignore the story because it's totally inconsistent bullshit.

[Taurus Daggerknight]

Also the platforms besides steam (Bethesda, XBOX/ Gamepass, Xbox consoles, Playstation, switch...).

EDIT: pushed this out too late. This was with regards to the discussion on whether or not there's proof about which nu-Doom is more popular. 

[Egg Boy]

I think you also have to take into account that Doom 2016 hit right before the "Boomer Shooter" renaissance. I don't think user score is a gauge of who did and didn't enjoy the game because only a small portion of people on steam choose to review the game, and the amount of players on steam is a small portion of the total player base across all platforms. Not only that, but if you look at the "recent reviews" on Doom Eternal, it is at 94%, as Doom 2016's recent is 96%, while its overall is 95%. I know this is semantics at this point, but it just goes to show that this isn't a good metric to judge the general consensus. 

[Azuris]

11 minutes ago, DooM Bear said:

 

I think you are both possibly correct :-)

 

We will probably never know (unless someone is lucky enough to sit down with Hugo at the pub one day) and I imagine all creators have things they love in their work and other things they wish they could have done better. No matter how good the end result is, if it’s your baby you are going to find things you wish you did differently :-)

 

As for the “vast majority prefer 2016” thing, @Sergeant_Mark_IV Put up the steam user review scores earlier in the thread:

 

“2016: 96% positive
Eternal: 90% positive
TAG1: 74% positive.
TAG2 is currently at 86%, but as the second wave of people that were less hyped plays it, it's expected to lower.”

 

So this means 1 in 10 people that played Eternal (base game) didn’t think it was great while only ~1 in 20 didn’t like 2016. 

 

While I definitely wouldn’t call it anything close to a vast majority, it is, to my mind, definitely some solid evidence to suggest people preferred 2016 over Eternal :-)

 

You should not forgett that Eternal got voted down when they implemented the anti Cheat Software on Kernel Level.

I also voted the Game down at that Point, even if i loved it, but i changed it when they removed it.

There will be a good Amount of People who just left it as it is.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

23 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

we also need to put into account that Doom 2016 has been out for a LONG while and Eternal has only been out a year. Opinions can definitely change over time. So I wouldn't really call this Solid as of the moment.

It's a bit hard to compare times because of how higher was the amount of people playing Eternal on release compared to 2016, but we can fall back to the minimum review number that can be compared: 20k reviews, at the first month of Eternal Release, and about 2 years of 2016's release.

At 20k reviews, 2016 had 92% positive reviews, it improved now to 96%
At 20k reviews, Eternal had 91% positive reviews, it worsened now to 90%.

From my personal experience, I had a much better initial impression with Eternal for not having the double jump restricted behind an upgrade, the Dash that immediately feels like a huge improvement to 2016's slow movement, and the monster and item designs more appealing to classic player and an infinitely better first level. But after you fully play the game, Eternal's faults becomes more apparent.  Maybe this could explain the rapid decline on it's approval, because the fresh paint quickly comes out.

Still there is reasonably solid data indicating a much higher general disapproval by the player base to Eternal than 2016.
 

[Doom64hunter]

Honestly the only way I see them continuing Doom from a story perspective is if they toss out the hot mess that was Eternal's lore and retcon it with a less over-the-top ridiculous and inconsistent continuation of Doom 2016.

 

Namely, return to the central theme of greed causing humanity's downfall, make Argent Energy a central focus of the story again. Make (human) Samuel Hayden the main villain, like he was clearly set up to be in Doom 2016. Don't introduce any godlike beings that literally created everything, including the Maykrs. Instead, have the environments, including Hell, be something that evolved on their own, and leave their true origin shrouded in mystery. Have multiple "Dark Lords" that fought for the throne of hell, like it was implied in 2016. Have the story show where Doomguy was sent, and make it a part of the game for him to get to Earth. And most importantly, don't explain every last bit of the game's lore like there was an all-knowing encyclopedia.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

13 minutes ago, Doom64hunter said:

Honestly the only way I see them continuing Doom from a story perspective is if they toss out the hot mess that was Eternal's lore and retcon it with a less over-the-top ridiculous and inconsistent continuation of Doom 2016.

Or just a "Doom Origins" retelling the events of the original game, and how Doomguy got locked into that sarcophagus. Back to science fiction themes and more raw and fast-paced gameplay. A relatively small project like this would do good to id's employees. They seem pretty burned out right now.
Or finish Doom 4 as a spinoff and show the events on Earth before Eternal from a normal human's POV (but this would probably require to put them on another crunch routine).

I think we had enough of "Doomslayer" for now.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Sergeant_Mark_IV

[hurricane hoatzine]

If so many people hate doom eternal  and the dlc and it story 

Let just John Carmack make the doom game again 

But I like the new doom games (mostly doometernal and 2016 not dlc because I have not play them)

I also will like see what will happen when some else make a doom game that everyone like the original creator to see what will they do with a new doom since doom eternal  have some what ended?

Something like sigil like John romero did

Also I will like how they think of the new doom game.

 

[BetaMarine]

59 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:
I think we had enough of "Doomslayer" for now.

Eh, I think we’ve had enough of “Doom” in general. The ID guys definitely agree.

[Ofisil]

I believe balance is the key word.

 

Doom 2016 was balanced, and had only a few flaws

 

DOOM Eternal was balanced, was also far more enjoyable to play, but parts of it were slightly questionable (it also tried to explain things way too much, which is never a good thing in a DOOM game, but Hugo is a wiki/lore nerd). I'm actually one of those that love the Marauder, but I generally think that enemies that act as shields, or that have you wait for an opening, are always less interesting than the rest (and there are worse "shields" than the marauder on the DLCs.

 

DLC #1 Was much less balanced, with the action occasionally being WAY too frantic for its sake, and the presentation feeling rushed, lacking that magic simplicity of Doom 2016 - still fun in its own problematic way, though.

 

DLC #2 completely lost that balance. Don't get me wrong, still insanely fun, and I definately enjoyed the new weapons, enemies, and whatnot, but they feel completely rushed, like a last minute decision. Dark Lord fight was the most repetitive and tedious Legend of Z... err, Doom boss battle, lore became a mess, presentation got a complete mess - I never felt immersed into it all, and it was as if id soft just throw a lot of "cool" stuff and called it a day.

 

Time limitations during development are always a bad thing, and that's the problem with TAG2. Id took its time with Doom 2016 and it shows.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Ofisil