The Ancient Gods 2 - Impressions and Story Spoilers

[Edward850]

7 minutes ago, xdarkmasterx said:

I was responding to your trying to deflect criticism, of his critique, using his status as a developer. Why bring it up, otherwise?

I brought it up because people seem to weirdly insist that him being old magically makes his critique invalid. Something I quite explicitly pointed out in my original statement:

Quote

I'm curious if the folks telling Quasar that he's too old for a boss fight know he's a game developer.

 

[D4NUK1]

9 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I brought it up because people seem to weirdly insist that him being old magically makes his critique invalid. Something I quite explicitly pointed out in my original statement:

 

And it's really a broken boss. A easy test, play the game in the UV Difficulty. And count the time to hit the boss. 

Now do the same in the HNTR or HMP Difficulty. It's the same. It's understable maybe for enemies as you have many ways to deal with them (Even the Marauder) but by Bossess, that regen HP if not hit, that's a broken mechanic!

So it's not for having the reflex or something, it's because the difficulty or time + regeneration HP it's bad balanced in lower difficultys.

[Kristian Nebula]

24 minutes ago, Bauul said:

I just got to the end of TAG2, and am firmly in the "The Dark Lord boss fight sucks ass".  I spent literally 45 minutes fighting him on Phase 3 without making any progress - he couldn't kill me, and I couldn't kill him.  It'd be minutes of hard work to get him to reasonably low health, and then one single missed dodge and he'd use the shield bash followed by a sword combo and get all his health back.

 

I just quit.  I can't appreciate a gameplay mechanic that undos the time you put into something so quickly.   Life is too short for that.

 

I absolutely share your sentiments, although I didn't quit but pushed through in frustration. Didn't die that much after I figured out what needed to be done. 2nd time I tried yesterday it took only a little over 15 minutes to punch the Doom Blade to its chest.

[xdarkmasterx]

26 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I brought it up because people seem to weirdly insist that him being old magically makes his critique invalid. Something I quite explicitly pointed out in my original statement:

 

 

Whatever dude. Just doing my part to cancel undue thought-terminating arguments ;)

[AtimZarr1]

2 hours ago, Man of Doom said:

Keep in mind that it was only changed to “Dark Lord” once TAG1 came out and was “Mysterious Voice” when the base game first came out.

 

That's interesting. Doesn't this change imply that the "Davoth is revealed to be the true creator and planned Urdak's downfall all along" plot was only thought of in the last five months after TAG1? I can't think of a reason why they would change it when TAG1 came out (October 2020) to clarify it's the Dark Lord's voice only to revert it after TAG2 came out (March 2021) to keep it a mystery again, especially considering Davoth's lore is different between TAG1 and TAG2.

[Quasar]

1 minute ago, AtimZarr1 said:

 

That's interesting. Doesn't this change imply that the "Davoth is revealed to be the true creator and planned Urdak's downfall all along" plot was only thought of in the last five months after TAG1? I can't think of a reason why they would change it when TAG1 came out (October 2020) to clarify it's the Dark Lord's voice only to revert it after TAG2 came out (March 2021) to keep it a mystery again, especially considering Davoth's lore is different between TAG1 and TAG2.

Proof positive they're just throwing ideas at a wall and keeping what sticks. Apparently, as noted by some astute people, this is based largely on whatever movies Hugo has been watching recently.

[Stoltzmann]

40 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Apparently, as noted by some astute people, this is based largely on whatever movies Hugo has been watching recently.

 

xDˣᴰ

 

Id needs to hire some good writers ASAP.

[Captain Keen]

2 hours ago, Bauul said:

I just quit.  I can't appreciate a gameplay mechanic that undos the time you put into something so quickly.   Life is too short for that.

 

I had the same problem. There are a few tricks you can do to avoid this, I posted about them here:

 

 

[Man of Doom]

I’m sorry, I can’t fucking do this with the calls to retcon the entirety of TAG and even the entirety of Eternal in general. I can’t do this anymore.

[Chezza]

Ok I just completed the DLC #2.

 

My overall thoughts: It met my expectations. Didn't reach beyond or below them.

 

• The new Weapon / Tool: I like it although the arcade stun sounds / effects is too much
• The new Demons: Fine in small doses, which they were
• The new Levels: Good, it scratched my itch and the last level battle scenery is impressive
• The Music: I like it, I need to go listen to the OST to conclude but it suited the action
• The Story: Not great, but I already concluded that from Doom Eternal, cemented in DLC #1

 

The Boss: I appreciate what they were going for, but the amount and frequency of health regain was frustrating. I guess I'm glad he wasn't a push over. Maybe lower difficulties it occurs less.

 

I'm satisfied and eager to see if we will see more installments in some form.

 

 

[AtimZarr1]

5 hours ago, Man of Doom said:

I’m sorry, I can’t fucking do this with the calls to retcon the entirety of TAG and even the entirety of Eternal in general. I can’t do this anymore.

 

Eternal lore already retconned elements of Doom 2016, so I don't see why there would be an aversion to retconning elements of Eternal. Granted, retconning the entire thing is excessive. Personally though for the most part, Eternal's lore is fine even if it leaves a bit to be desired. The primary issue I have is specifically with the TAG lore, as listed below:

 

---

 

- Doomguy is a creation by the Dark Lord in his image

 

- The Dark Lord is the Creator of the Doom universe

 

- Hell's capitol city is a techbase filled with people

 

- Hell actually was once Jekkad and its people were driven by a quest for immortality

 

- God and Angels are usurpers created by the Dark Lord

---

 

If they want to write any more future Doom Slayer games, they have to work with the above. There's really no way around it. The ideas are so grand, overarching, and unambiguous - it's retroactively affected everything else in the past and the future. From now on, the above are the truths of the Doom Slayer universe.

 

It becomes more absurd when we remember that the Doom Slayer is actually supposed to be Classic Doomguy - which means the Classic series are also retroactively "retconned" too with the TAG twists - those demons you fought in Classic Doom? Once denizens of Jekkad that became twisted in their search for immortality. Classic Doomguy's identity? A clone created by the Dark Lord to do his bidding. All of Classic Hell's towering castles filled with pits of blood, flesh, bone, and flame? Insignificant to the Dark Lord in comparison to Hell's capitol city, a techbase filled with people that he favors over the rest of Hell. What's especially hilarious is if they actually go for the multiverse in a future Doom Slayer title - that would make every connected Doom title retroactively retconned with TAG lore since they would all be bound through a single Hell.

 

TAG lore has effectively robbed Hell of any more mystery in the Doom Slayer universe. Everything is spelled out and the revelations aren't satisfying because it's a laundry list of plot twists with no narrative build-up or consistency to what has been presented before (Hell as shown in Eternal, 2016, Doom 64, or Classic Doom). All four of those titles have different interpretations of Hell, but they are all consistent with each other because none make a grand statement to the entirety of Hell itself. But TAG does make those grand statements, resulting in lore that seems at odds to what has come before while also unambiguously defining future releases.

 

Either future Doom Slayer games will have to operate under the above lore or ignore/change/retcon it. And personally, I don't see what's compelling or interesting about anything that's been presented in the TAG lore twists I've listed above that would make them worth keeping around.

[Azuris]

1 hour ago, AtimZarr1 said:

.

 

Either future Doom Slayer games will have to operate under the above lore or ignore/change/retcon it. And personally, I don't see what's compelling or interesting about anything that's been presented in the TAG lore twists I've listed above that would make them worth keeping around.

 

It is too binding, i think they'll just ignore it and make their own Thing with their own Approach of Hell.

 

Or maybe just make an Sequel to Doom 3, as this seems to be untouched asides of the Soul Cube laying around.

 

Or again:"It was all an Illusion/Trick from the Icon of Sin".

After defeating the Icon of Sin in Eternal the Doom Guy got mentaly bound to the diyng Body of his giant Foe.

Meanwhile the Forces of Hell conquer Earth once and for all, slaving Humanity.

When will our Heroe awaik from his Fever Dream fighing his own dark Site?

But beware! An old Comrade from the Mars Moons arrives! - Crash!
As the Invasion of Hell happend she was banned into a also nightmarish Dimension, were Flesh and Metal fused into pervers Creatures, abismal Beeings from unbelievable Places roamed and Mortals fought in Arenas for Live and Death

 

 

You can come up with something.

[RougeSlayer96]

47 minutes ago, Azuris said:

 

It is too binding, i think they'll just ignore it and make their own Thing with their own Approach of Hell.

 

Or maybe just make an Sequel to Doom 3, as this seems to be untouched asides of the Soul Cube laying around.

 

Or again:"It was all an Illusion/Trick from the Icon of Sin".

After defeating the Icon of Sin in Eternal the Doom Guy got mentaly bound to the diyng Body of his giant Foe.

Meanwhile the Forces of Hell conquer Earth once and for all, slaving Humanity.

When will our Heroe awaik from his Fever Dream fighing his own dark Site?

But beware! An old Comrade from the Mars Moons arrives! - Crash!
As the Invasion of Hell happend she was banned into a also nightmarish Dimension, were Flesh and Metal fused into pervers Creatures, abismal Beeings from unbelievable Places roamed and Mortals fought in Arenas for Live and Death

 

 

You can come up with something.

This is pretty similar to the idea of I had where we'd get a dlc spin-off for Crash, who'd be a Night Sentinetal during the fall of Arget D'Nur and due to portal shenanigans she ends up in Quake with her having to fight her way back to her home dimensions. 

[Azuris]

38 minutes ago, RougeSlayer96 said:

This is pretty similar to the idea of I had where we'd get a dlc spin-off for Crash, who'd be a Night Sentinetal during the fall of Arget D'Nur and due to portal shenanigans she ends up in Quake with her having to fight her way back to her home dimensions. 

 

Haha hear us ID, hear our Call :>

[Yurax]

3 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

TAG lore has effectively robbed Hell of any more mystery in the Doom Slayer universe. Everything is spelled out and the revelations aren't satisfying because it's a laundry list of plot twists with no narrative build-up or consistency to what has been presented before (Hell as shown in Eternal, 2016, Doom 64, or Classic Doom). All four of those titles have different interpretations of Hell, but they are all consistent with each other because none make a grand statement to the entirety of Hell itself.

 

Why not? Story in short:
Jekkad, ruled by genius Davoth. "Regular" advanced hi-tech city with normal people. Among other wonders, searched for immortality. Davoth creates Maykrs to extend his mind + abilities to reach it. Maykrs discovers Argent stuff, having immortality not "for nothing", but "for cost". Most likely not what Davoth wanted. Being afraid of Davoth wrath/misuse, Maykrs sealed him and Immora from reality, builds Urdak based on theirs home Immora design, doing all the Argent stuff, slowly expanding the daemonic corruption everywhere, later construct Nekravol, which may be on completely different world than Immora (To Nekravol, Slayer travel from Fortress, while Immora is reachable only by Divum), invade Earth and much other worlds. Meanwhile citizens of Jekkad outside Immora turned also into deamons, creating also hellscape as we know (medieval-metal-biblic visions of castles, blood, corpses).

From where all it metal gothic inspiration comes? Some inner, deeper, true hell, we didnt discover in new Dooms yet.
Speaking Warhammer 40 language: Slayer fought and clears just infested cultist worlds, not real Daemonworlds, not to mention inner spaces of Eye of Terror itself.
This will explain also different Hellscapes across Dooms, united by one original idea.

[igg]

 

4 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

- Doomguy is a creation by the Dark Lord in his image

I think this was a good explanation why the dark lord and the Slayer look the same. Much better than just a random mighty hell warrior.

 

4 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

- The Dark Lord is the Creator of the Doom universe

- God and Angels are usurpers created by the Dark Lord

I agree with you. The whole Khan Maykr / Samur / Father storyline now feels like a prank. This causes some major plot problems:

• It was Davoths own fault his people die due to being mortal
• The Father had no reason to spare Davoths life. If he and the other Maykrs agreed Davoth is a threat to life in general, they should have killed him. The whole "Father didn't kill Davoth because he loves his first being" makes no sense anymore.

 

4 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

- Hell's capitol city is a techbase filled with people

 

- Hell actually was once Jekkad and its people were driven by a quest for immortality

 

Thats actually OK for me. It ties Urdak and Hell in a logical way. In TAG1 we were told that Jekkad once was a regular realm, so there is no reason why they shouldn't have buildings and technology like Urdak. But I agree with you again on your next point:

 

4 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

All of Classic Hell's towering castles filled with pits of blood, flesh, bone, and flame? Insignificant to the Dark Lord in comparison to Hell's capitol city, a techbase filled with people that he favors over the rest of Hell.

Hell now is completely demystified although this was not necessary. I remember Hugo saying something about dead people spawning in hell. Unfortunately I can't find the exact cite right now. The lore (Eternal - TAG 1 - TAG 2) left some room for mystery, but the lore doesn't even hint at that anymore:

• Why did the Maykrs consider Davoths search for eternal life as threat to the universe? Was his research based on black magic? Was it based on soul torture factories as seen in Nekravol?
• How does hell absorb life? Is it caused by sins, evilness, ...? Why did Earth have to repent?
• What about UAC cultist? How do their rituals interact with hell?

[Ofisil]

1 hour ago, GaiusJuliusCaesar said:

overall, I am quite disappointed...at least the ending is great, it fits both thematically, and emotionally, it's a good ending

"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again."
— Corrax Entry 7:17

 

That's what saves it for me. Everything after the "helmet off" scene is - almost - enough for me to tolerate the rest.

 

[MrHofmann]

2 hours ago, Yurax said:

later construct Nekravol, which may be on completely different world than Immora (To Nekravol, Slayer travel from Fortress, while Immora is reachable only by Divum)

 

Isn't Nekravol located in Argent D'Nur, since the tower can be seen from the corrupt part of Exultia?

[igg]

I wonder how the "Dark Lord is the true creator" plot twist passed quality assurance. They must have noticed something is going wrong when they had to alter the original campaign again?!? This statement during the final battle was a surprise, but a bad one, and completely unnecessary. 

 

Doesn't Quake Champions also say Vega is the true God of the Doom universe? 

[Doom64hunter]

I just realized that with Doomguy being created by the Dark Lord, and him not being able to leave hell either, the game essentially just pulled a "No John, you are the demons" on us.

[igg]

8 minutes ago, Doom64hunter said:

I just realized that with Doomguy being created by the Dark Lord, and him not being able to leave hell either

Don't know. Being placed in the center of the Ingmore's Sanctum the Slayer is now ranked as a God-like being, isn't he? 

[igg]

10 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

It becomes more absurd when we remember that the Doom Slayer is actually supposed to be Classic Doomguy - which means the Classic series are also retroactively "retconned" too with the TAG twists - those demons you fought in Classic Doom? Once denizens of Jekkad that became twisted in their search for immortality. Classic Doomguy's identity? A clone created by the Dark Lord to do his bidding. 

Since the Slayer is the classic Doomguy id Software rewrote the entire franchise with TAG2 :-( Whoever plays Classic Doom now knows Doomguy is not strong by himself, nor is he the righteous marine who beat his boss to defend civilians - no, he's basically the devils clone and thus kind of cheating.

 

Although I liked Eternals connection to Classic Doom initially I'm not not happy about it now. 

 

Mayking the devil the creator of Doom universe and the Father confirming it changed the franchise forever. 

[Ofisil]

I believe that writters (in comics, videogames, movies, whaveter) should stay away from the multi-verse trend.

Just build one solid game world, that's not connected to anything else, or tries to explain all previous instalments, and you are done.

[D4NUK1]

5 hours ago, Doom64hunter said:

I just realized that with Doomguy being created by the Dark Lord, and him not being able to leave hell either, the game essentially just pulled a "No John, you are the demons" on us.

Just to be clear, Doomguy it's not created by the Dark Lord. The Divinity Machine It's the Dark Lord Power.

Killing the Dark Lord just kill they power. So, Doom Slayer does not have the divinity Machine, so he it's human again.

The confusion comes to the Dark Lords looks, and that's may be because he shares a lot with the Doom Marine, may be for multiple reasons, so it's all speculation now.

[Azuris]

Hmm so i've now tested the second Level.
Another annoying Enemy that blocks your Movement, the Cursed Prowler, sooo much Fun... not.
Lost my Interest in that Game.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

It is really sad, i loved the Main Game, feels like an abrupt Cut.

[Vic Vos]

Never really had problems with the Cursed Prowler, I just BP it on sight and forget about him.

[Azuris]

1 minute ago, Vic Vos said:

Never really had problems with the Cursed Prowler, I just BP it on sight and forget about him.

 

That was my thinking of the Prowler when i first encountert him and i could just spot and kill him.

 

Now i wasn't lucky.
A new Wave spawned with two big Demons around me and also some minor.
He cursed me and i couldn't escape fast enough because there was no Way to do so beeing cursed.
I had to use the Blood Punch to survive.
Than it was nearly impossible to reach him and have the Blood Punch active.
I have no Problem with the Spirits, i have no Problem with the Maurodeur, i have no Problem with the new Heavy Weapons Dude, i have no Problem with the Wolf Sections and the armored big ones.

But i have a Problem with all those Movement blocking Enemies that also have only one specifique Way to kill them.
I have no Nerves for something like this in Moment and i doubt that i'll have in the Future.
 

The Main Game is Doom 2 with some Enemies to dislike.
The DLCs are Plutonia with Stuff just there to annoy you.

It is not my personal Taste, if others like it i'll not take the Fun away from them :)

[HQDefault]

I won't have any further impressions until I read through the codex, but this scene at the end made me laugh my ass off

 

 

[whatup876]

1 hour ago, Ofisil said:

I believe that writters (in comics, videogames, movies, whaveter) should stay away from the multi-verse trend.

Just build one solid game world, that's not connected to anything else, or tries to explain all previous instalments, and you are done.

The thing with the multiverse is when said universes have very different rules, but somehow there is only one hell, when it feels more like there's multiples.

MG's Wolfenstein titles being different from Wolf 3D (and i think Old Blood also replaced RTCW) might be a positive.

[Chezza]

Doom 2016 had me interested in learning more of the story, but did feel too vague with random names thrown about.

 

The understanding of 2016 story

1. Doom Slayer is a legendary warrior against Hell and was imprisoned as he couldn't be killed

2. A great betrayal happened which fueled the Slayer's intense anger

3. Hell invaded multiple dimensions and has began attacking Earth, the Slayer's home world

4. Hell begins its invasion by deception of Argent energy, a powerful energy source that advance species can't resist using or inevitably need to survive

5. The Slayer is such a bad arse, we see how much damage he has potentially caused in parts of Hell

6. Samuel Hayden is very suspicious, responsible for freeing Slayer but may have allowed Hell's influence to spread in their dimension. He says using Argent energy and intentions were for good but things got out of hand

 

My understanding of Eternal's story

1. Lots of fluff about a war between heaven and hell dimensions

2. Heaven dimension hierarchy is corrupt, arranging deals with Hell for protection and long life in return sacrifice entire worlds to feed Hell, Earth being the current victim

3. Samuel knows a lot more than we thought about the grand scheme of things, still attempts to guide the Slayer to accomplish his (unknown) agenda

4. Vega gave us the impression he is related to or is Heaven's founding Father somehow

5. The death of the Maykr has screwed Heaven over, allowing Hell is invade them or something. Funny though when it happens the Dark Lord says "NOOOOOOO" so maybe he didn't want this arrangement to change. But in TAG#2 I thought he wanted this to happen? I'm confused.

 

My understanding of Tag#1 story

1. The Father is still alive but trapped or something along those lines. Samual is in fact an Angel and direct servant of the Father who wants the Slayer to free him so there is a balance between Hell and Heaven once again

2. Slayer has his own agenda, frees the Dark Lord instead to kill him directly which should eliminate all of Hell's influence on other dimensions

 

My understanding of Tag#2 story:

1. Father is not the founder but a servant who betrayed, with others, the dark lord who actually was the creator

2. Something about immortality and protecting the species etc led the Dark Lord to become the Dark Lord in the first place

3. Fluff happens, civil wars happened, and a final battle happened in Tag #2

4. Dark Lord is defeated, so are all demons and the Slayer who was his creation go along with him

 

I don't get how he is the powerful "creator" but needs an anime mech suit to fight and just can't spawn and kill any of his creations. So he wasn't or isn't a God that can spawn planets, life etc?

 

Anyway, I liked 2016s story arch the most. Eternal and onwards tried too hard and lost me.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Chezza