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AtimZarr1

The Ancient Gods 2 - Impressions and Story Spoilers

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They seem to be kinda doing the whole thing NuWolfenstein did with the occult stuff, where like it all just LOOKS like magic and supernatural shit but its all actually super advance technology. Angels and demons are nothing more than mutants and aliens with a hell and vague heaven motif and the human soul is probably just the equivalent of star wars midichlorians

 

maybe im bitter and reaching with some of this tho

Edited by Robot_Joe

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The way the story is panning out in Eternal feels sort of endemic of lackluster writing in modern pop culture fiction. The base campaign had a couple of moments where it felt like they just had this vague vision for a cool looking scene they wanted to have in the game, but didn't organically fit in to the overall plot so they just had to shoehorn it in there (the completely superfluous interaction with The Betrayer being a prime example). TAG2 feels like it's basically like that for the entire story.

 

It just feels to me like a lot of fiction is approached this way today. I don't know if it's bias on my part due to still being relatively young, but it definitely feels like a trend that's been escalating for the past 15 years at least. Like, we now have an entire generation of professional writers and directors who grew up with these iconic old scenes like the Star Wars "I am your father" moment, and they feel like they want to have their shot at doing that kind of thing, but they're constantly putting the cart before the horse so none of it feels earned (like the Martha scene in BvS). They have some vague vision of a scene where the antagonist tells the protagonist this huge revelatory thing and it's all framed as having a ton of emotional weight behind it, and then they just have to come up with some sort of justification for it after the fact.

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Adding more thoughts:

* The cutscene with the dragon is funny because of the heavy tech music: it's like they chose that track to settle down any potential comparisons to Skyrim or something.

* Instead of the Prowler, i think a Cursed variant could have been given to the Gargoyle instead because the Prowler is already unique on his own (teleportation, 3 fireballs) while Gargoyles are essentially flying imps. (plus, a poison attack is something i always thought would fit them)

* I also noticed that another 2016 MP skin is used in TAG2 but instead for the giant guards/gatekeepers.

 

In general, a lot of ideas could have gone another way and that part of reinterpration stuff (for the fun or experimentation aspect) is what makes me wonder if "non canon" games can be a possibility, because if lore leads to "X can't happen because Y", then that would seem unfortunate.

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38 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

The lack of anything supernatural beyond "Uh, magic I guess" has been bugging me for a bit too. I always loved how Hell had tech, but it was also something that defied logic and reason. It's also supposed to evoke cruelty and harsh brutality; the cybernetics aren't supposed to look clean like on the cyber-baron. It's supposed to look painful, very much like  the Strogg (who themselves are basically a visual off-shoot of OG Doom's foes).

 

Hell in general has been made into "some place that folks go to because of a corporate deal", essentially. Which takes away from the sheer horror of it, which was present even in the most off-the-wall takes on Doom of yore. However much of a comic book Doom might be said to be, Hell was always the dimension of the damned; a  place of pure evil that cannot be reasoned with outside of dubious vows of servitude. 

 

 

Yes indeed.

Thats something sad, Doom was the Series that made Hell what it should be, something horrible and abstract Humans can't understand.

 

This is why i disliked the first Doom Movie so much, because it was that old Movie Maker Opinion: "Ahh thats to unnormal and abstract, lets ground it more!".

(The first Doom Movie is Resident Evil in Space :P )

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The Dark Lord wouldn't be such a frustrating boss if he didn't health regen like that. 

As for loose ends, I'm pretty sure Ancient Gods isn't the only single player DLC, we'll get more.

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11 minutes ago, Azuris said:

 

Yes indeed.

Thats something sad, Doom was the Series that made Hell what it should be, something horrible and abstract Humans can't understand.

 

This is why i disliked the first Doom Movie so much, because it was that old Movie Maker Opinion: "Ahh thats to unnormal and abstract, lets ground it more!".

(The first Doom Movie is Resident Evil in Space :P )

 

I don't even feel like it has to be explicitly abstract really. Just cold/ cruel and malicious without familiarity beyond the material in front of you. I'm fine with looking at things in Hell and saying "yeah, I know what this is and what it's for", but that's as long as it still carries the weight and mood.

 

In a lot of ways, TAG 1 and 2 (and to a lesser extent, Eternal itself) feel a lot like what happened between Diablo 2 and 3; lots of mechanical improvements, and on a strictly fidelity level, the visuals were improved.... but somewhere along the line, the actual aesthetic and tone of the writing got VERY muddied and turned into something it never was. 

 

To clarify; I'm not strictly arguing over whether Doom is serious or comical, just talking about the coherence of the plot and what it recognizes as Hell. 

 

Keeping to the Diablo example, it's possible that the next entry in the series will do what Blizzard seems to be doing with the upcoming part 4, and bring things back down a bit. One can hope....

 

What I find surprising in all of this is that Hugo has stated multiple times that Doom 64 is his favorite in the series, yet both TAG's have done everything possible to move the series -away- from that game's tone or visual mood. Again, like with Diablo 3, that resulted in something that's quite enjoyable for what it is, but what it is is not what it claims. 

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1 hour ago, Robot_Joe said:

They seem to be kinda doing the whole thing NuWolfenstein did with the occult stuff, where like it all just LOOKS like magic and supernatural shit but its all actually super advance technology.

Not quite. In Return to Castle Wolfenstein, the whole Deathshead subplot revolves around the development of super advanced technology in the form of cyborg super soldiers; The New Order merely takes that plot thread and cranks it to eleven.

 

In The Old Blood, however, the main threat is entirely magic/supernatural.

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1 minute ago, Rudolph said:

Not quite. In Return to Castle Wolfenstein, the whole Deathshead subplot revolves around the development of super advanced technology in the form of cyborg super soldiers; The New Order merely takes that plot thread and cranks it to eleven.

 

In The Old Blood, however, the threat is straightforwardly magic/supernatural.

 

RTCW also had the attempted resurrection of an ancient warlord and undead shenanigan's though, to be fair. 

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It was still explained as da'at yichud technology that was reanimating corpses in the old blood. The newer games seem to try and ignore the actual super natural stuff RTCW had going on or explain it away as it being ancient jewish science lol

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4 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

RTCW also had the attempted resurrection of an ancient warlord and undead shenanigan's though, to be fair. 

True, but that plot thread was mostly unrelated to the Deathshead's X-Creatures project, just like the V-2 Rocket mission.

 

3 minutes ago, Robot_Joe said:

It was still explained as da'at yichud technology that was reanimating corpses in the old blood

It was? I do not remember.

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Man, that fight in Immora with the two Marauders and the constantly respawning Screechers is so tough for me right now. The weird thing is this happened not long after I utterly dominated a Marauder in a previous area. It was a proper moment and I literally yelled at him to get fucked, it was so good. I managed to somehow stagger-lock him while switching between the super shotgun and the ballista using the Q button, something which I've never managed to do before. Although I am playing on ITYTD because this game already had a long list of mechanics to remember before the DLC added some more.

 

I'm willing to forgive the narrative shortcomings of this game, because the gameplay is just so fucking good. Escalation nests are fun as hell, it's just so unavoidably tempting to give them a second go.

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That reminds me, there aren't any Slayer Gates in DLC2 are there? The end screens look so sparse, they've really cut back on the exploration and secret hunting side of things which is a bit of a shame.

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5 minutes ago, NoXion said:

That reminds me, there aren't any Slayer Gates in DLC2 are there? The end screens look so sparse, they've really cut back on the exploration and secret hunting side of things which is a bit of a shame.

 

The whole DLC seems to be rushed. No secrets, new enemy variants that do not affect the gameplay that much, new weapon you can easily forget it exists, abysmal story, final boss that is just reskinned gladiator, medicore music, just meh...

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-I agree with public dislikement of boss fight. It was most of all - boring. Just dashing at edge of sword reach, waiting for the damn green flash. Time window is much much shorter, than marauder's! It was mix of Marauder with the leech controlled statues fight in 2016.

I think it is even bugged somehow. I can understand, how he heals by his crucible or shield, but why he heals from bullets if beeing shot from far away while "non green" sword swosh? It happens to me rarely even if i tightly miss green flash window.

-Second disappointment was lack of Davoth duel after mech is broken. I didnnt expect end so soon.

-AG2 is really significantly less difficult, than AG1. I like Marauder duels, but there are only 2 mandatory and 3 optional!

- i liked the scrolls with "all is conspiracy", how original story happens, but was guided and driven by Davoth.

- Hell-Urdak capital city with armies clash on background is one of best sightnings in game at all.

-DLCs somehow reminds me of Burial at Sea DLS for Bioshock - first is combat based and hard, second is story based and arc closing (also showing some previous events in another view).

- Really seems that this DLC was finished in too much hurry to fit into one year term.

Spoiler

well, Slayer is sleeping now, like after temple fells on him before. (Maybe there were no temple, its also lie and he is sent in cycle back to Mars in 2016), because "made by Davoth". But what about Father, surviving Maykrs (if there are any) and all other made by him? Why, after Khan killed in base game, Dark lord (it was added in update with AG1) cries "Noo"? 
I read some funny, but interesting comment, that 2016 discovery of Slayers sacrophagus were original Davoth one, with Davoth inside, but he was awakened by Hayden without red orb, becoming human-liking Slayer.
I expected end like some space-time reset, with Slayer had all special abilities removed and returned to beginning of very first Doom.

 

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I wouldn't say the whole DLC was forgettable. Immora is an amazing setting, for one thing. But I still need to understand why Davoth was so pissed when Doomguy killed Khan Maykr if that's what he actually wanted in the first place. Someone needs to ask Hugo that at the soonest convenience.

If taken separately, then I guess part 1 was slightly better. The UAC Atlantica facility was pretty damn amazing, and the variety in the levels was really sweet. The second part's levels are shorter and less exploration-oriented, but aesthetically they're also very pretty and the payoff at the end is pretty sweet. Looking forward to the next game to tie up all the loose ends and continue the story, that's for sure. I only hope they can keep it consistent, as the plot does feel full of contradictions. I couldn't even get over Argent D'nur not being hellish like in 2016.

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OKay...yeah...screw this boss. 

 

I can deal with him healing if he smacks me with his sword....

I can deal with the CYBER DEMON spawn forcing me to waste a hammer charge and dance for another twenty minutes....

 

I cannot deal with the fact that he's getting fully healed just because I shot him a few times when he wasn't winking at me. This is happening randomly too, so I have a hard time imagining that this is by design. If it is, seriously, WTF? If not, then I'm waiting till they patch this, because this is downright cheap. 

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I'm disappointed by the Dark Lord boss. When we got the clues about his identity in the first DLC, I imagined it would be something cool, like fighting the doppelganger boss in SotN, for those if you who recall that. The boss we actually got was a total cop-out. 

 

Big missed opportunity. Though the same could be said of all religions the mangled lore.

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39 minutes ago, Job said:

Big missed opportunity. Though the same could be said of all religions the mangled lore.

What a miserable pile of secrets.

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23 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:


It's a bit hard to compare times because of how higher was the amount of people playing Eternal on release compared to 2016, but we can fall back to the minimum review number that can be compared: 20k reviews, at the first month of Eternal Release, and about 2 years of 2016's release.

At 20k reviews, 2016 had 92% positive reviews, it improved now to 96%
At 20k reviews, Eternal had 91% positive reviews, it worsened now to 90%.

From my personal experience, I had a much better initial impression with Eternal for not having the double jump restricted behind an upgrade, the Dash that immediately feels like a huge improvement to 2016's slow movement, and the monster and item designs more appealing to classic player and an infinitely better first level. But after you fully play the game, Eternal's faults becomes more apparent.  Maybe this could explain the rapid decline on it's approval, because the fresh paint quickly comes out.

Still there is reasonably solid data indicating a much higher general disapproval by the player base to Eternal than 2016.
 

Except that DOOM 2016 didn't get review-bombed because of a misguided attempt to implement anti-cheat. In addition, Steam doesn't represent every PC player like DOOM 2016, since the game is also available on Bethesda.net (which is where nearly every retail and third-party key is redeemed at) and Xbox Game Pass/Microsoft Store.

 

Beyond that, if you look at Metacritic, the user scores for Eternal are 8.7 on PS4 and 8.8 on Xbone, which is higher than 2016's 8.4 and 8.5, respectively. Switch user scores for the two games are the same, so that leaves PC as the only platform where Eternal's user score is (slightly) lower, at a 8.4 compared to a 8.5. Not only is that difference negligible and subject to a margin of error, but I remember Eternal's PC user score being lower at some point during launch, about 7.something. So if anything, public reception to Eternal is improving instead of the opposite like what you're suggesting.

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I don't get it. If the dark lord is the original creator why did he create someone more powerful than him? And why does this being look exactly like him?

Once doom slayer finds out the truth why kill him? Surely he can kind of understand where the dl is coming from and make some kind of deal? 

 

You meet God and he needs to fight you in a mech suit? 

 

The lore seems too retconned and convoluted now imo. I liked when it was evil and mysterious, now it's more Sci Fi. 

I really liked eternal but I must say I liked 2016 doom more. It's multiplayer was better too, and the atmosphere was miles better. Eternal is too cartoony. It's literally like diablo 2 to 3. 

 

I have a feeling they'll reboot next game and have us play as a female slayer. 

 

I hate when a team ruins a prequels awesome story of hell. Diablo 2 to 3 was another one. They ruined characters like tyrael and deckard. 

I liked the idea of these godly beings fighting over being the leader of hell and they're scared of this ridiculously skilled human who was blessed by an angel and given insanely powerful armour.

 

Another odd thing and I swear I'm not trolling. I swear doom 2016 has better sharper graphics. Eternal looks blurry [ I have dynamic res turned off] and both maxed out in 4k 

Edited by gammatsunami

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12 minutes ago, gammatsunami said:

I have a feeling they'll reboot next game and have us play as a female slayer. 

I'm thinking the same thing. Hugo's been talking quite a bit about having a Doomgal. 

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10 minutes ago, RomDump said:

I'm thinking the same thing. Hugo's been talking quite a bit about having a Doomgal. 

 

I don't want a male doomguy, the same way I don't want a male Samus

 

...I wouldn't mind Crash as a second character, though :)

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26 minutes ago, RomDump said:

I'm thinking the same thing. Hugo's been talking quite a bit about having a Doomgal. 

 

 

Wasn't the one chat recently the only time he's even addressed that? 

 

Either way... I'm hoping for either a reboot or a lore successor to D3, but with gameplay notes from 2016/ Eternal. Again... loved the new games mechanically and for Eternal's monsters. It's just the writing that's seriously starting to grate on me (oh, and the obsession with gimmick based foes. Once, twice, thrice was fine, but the obsession really needs to stop now). 

 

As for whether we get a Doomguy or gal, it really doesn't matter in the slightest, so long as it doesn't become a centerpiece to the plot either way. 

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6 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

(oh, and the obsession with gimmick based foes. Once, twice, thrice was fine, but the obsession really needs to stop now). 

 

Can you please print this statement and physically mail it to id? I wish I could like this 100 times.

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I would also like for Doomguy to NOT be so central to the world's lore.

Make him a simple marine, make him a human-turned-demi-god Slayer, but don't make him a cornerstone of the history of the gameworld.

Super-Powerful or not, Doomguy is supposed to be "just a guy"

 

That's just me, probably...

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15 hours ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

 

I don't even feel like it has to be explicitly abstract really. Just cold/ cruel and malicious without familiarity beyond the material in front of you. I'm fine with looking at things in Hell and saying "yeah, I know what this is and what it's for", but that's as long as it still carries the weight and mood.

 


Ah that "without Familarity" is also what i meant with abstract :)
I am also especially thinking about Doom 3 when the Bricks form and deform infront of you.

Besides if that, i think many Levels of Doom 2016 and Eternal got it right with Hell and also had that Doom 3 Feeling.

 

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5 hours ago, chemo said:

Except that DOOM 2016 didn't get review-bombed because of a misguided attempt to implement anti-cheat.


True. I give you that.
But Doom Eternal DLCs never had any controversy and no review bombing. And their ratings are in a spiral into the ground. TAG2 went from 86% to 76% in the last 24 hours.

 

Quote

In addition, Steam doesn't represent every PC player like DOOM 2016, since the game is also available on Bethesda.net (which is where nearly every retail and third-party key is redeemed at) and Xbox Game Pass/Microsoft Store.

 

Beyond that, if you look at Metacritic, the user scores for Eternal are 8.7 on PS4 and 8.8 on Xbone, which is higher than 2016's 8.4 and 8.5, respectively. Switch user scores for the two games are the same, so that leaves PC as the only platform where Eternal's user score is (slightly) lower, at a 8.4 compared to a 8.5. Not only is that difference negligible and subject to a margin of error, but I remember Eternal's PC user score being lower at some point during launch, about 7.something.

 


Well, neither Metacritic represents every PC player. Do you understand how statistics works? You do not need to know the opinion of 100% of the people to know the public's general opinion on a subject, you just need a good and reliable pool.

For example, the 2020 US election pools interviewed 230,000 people, in a country of 210 million adult people. That's 1% of the country's eligible population, and that's considered pretty accurate.
It's suggested that each review on Steam represents an average of 80 sales for AAA games, so you can say aprox. 1.25% of Steam users voices their opinions about the games they purchase. This is a pretty good sample.

Metacritic is not reliable You do not require proof that you actually played the game to give the rating.
I could just go there right now and give both TLOU games a fat zero, despite the fact that I never owned a Playstation in my life. Who could stop me? How do you know if I didn't did it already? This is how low Metacritic's reliability is.

 

Quote

So if anything, public reception to Eternal is improving instead of the opposite like what you're suggesting.


Then explain the bad reception of the DLCs? Despite the fact it should be a more refined experience of the core game?

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18 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Then explain the bad reception of the DLCs? Despite the fact it should be a more refined experience of the core game?

 

I'm seeing bad reception only from people who were disappointed with the lore/story. I still can't believe there are so many who play Doom for the story and take it so seriously. I mean to the point that they start ranting. It's just beyond me. 

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On 3/19/2021 at 6:03 AM, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

And to be honest, the base game could had been a perfect ending for the series. You just kill the Icon of Sin, a big mean boss, at an "end of the world" battle scenario. Earth is saved. Doomguy goes back to his fortress where he rests Eternally. The end.

I second that.

 

I also thought the ending in the base game was perfect. Demonic invasion gets halted on Earth after Sin dies & that's where Slayer finally deserves some rest. What Id needs to do is put a spotlight on Ranger & get him back in action. And no, not in multiplayer.

Edited by The_SloVinator

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