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AtimZarr1

The Ancient Gods 2 - Impressions and Story Spoilers

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1 hour ago, MrHofmann said:

 

I'm seeing bad reception only from people who were disappointed with the lore/story. 


That's not what the reviews are saying. Pretty diverse bad feedback relating to the final boss, enemy encounters, and length of the gameimage.png.b33c048fd5e57ae206c3516aa37922dd.png

 

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1 hour ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Well, neither Metacritic represents every PC player. Do you understand how statistics works? You do not need to know the opinion of 100% of the people to know the public's general opinion on a subject, you just need a good and reliable pool.

 

...


Metacritic is not reliable You do not require proof that you actually played the game to give the rating.
I could just go there right now and give both TLOU games a fat zero, despite the fact that I never owned a Playstation in my life. Who could stop me? How do you know if I didn't did it already? This is how low Metacritic's reliability is.

 

Completely agree :-)

 

Adding to this, Steam has 100,776 reviews for Eternal at time of writing while Metacritic only has 3,800 reviews for PC, 2,800 for PS4, etc. 

 

We could just call it 10,000 reviews in total across all platforms but that is still only a tenth of the number of Steam reviews. While this doesn’t definitively “prove” anything, generally the bigger the sample size, the more confident you can be that the numbers reflect reality :-)

 

The other thing is, because Eternal was so hyped, it is likely that most of the target demographic likely to enjoy it have already played it so, as Sgt Mark said previously, it’s score is likely to go down in future as more casual players start picking it up (I wouldn’t be the slightest bit surprised if ID recently nurfed TAG1 precisely for this reason).

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1 hour ago, MrHofmann said:

 

I'm seeing bad reception only from people who were disappointed with the lore/story. I still can't believe there are so many who play Doom for the story and take it so seriously. I mean to the point that they start ranting. It's just beyond me. 

 

I'd say that it's somewhat fair to judge the story of a game if its part of the charm of the whole package. If not the story, then the overall presentation.

Secondly if a developer puts effort in actually crafting a story and/or game world then you can't just say "oh, who gives a flying fuck about the story."

 

When a game has a shitload of lore, and plenty of cut-scenes, yeah, people have the right to talk about it, and critisise it.

I understand that some just want to shoot demons, and some care A LOT about the story/lore, almost fanatically. I'm right in the middle: I want a good game, but I also want the story (what little there is) to help me get immesed into it all.

 

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8 hours ago, gammatsunami said:

I hate when a team ruins a prequels awesome story of hell. Diablo 2 to 3 was another one. They ruined characters like tyrael and deckard.

I do not think this is even remotely comparable.

 

Diablo III fleshes out Tyrael as a character and humanizes Deckard Cain. Eternal and The Ancient Gods, however, seem to be just pulling out stuff out of nowhere and expect us to just go along with it (in part thanks to the Doom Slayer's inability/unwillingness to show surprise - let alone any emotion besides anger), but then before we get the chance to understand what it all means, the game has already moved on or is over.

Edited by Rudolph

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1 hour ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:


That's not what the reviews are saying. Pretty diverse bad feedback relating to the final boss, enemy encounters, and length of the gameimage.png.b33c048fd5e57ae206c3516aa37922dd.png

 

 

How is this reliable at all. There isn't any play time shown, the comments regarding length don't say on which difficulty they played, every encounter you are forced to kill specific enemy with specific weapon is not true and the boss fight is crap because it plays like the marauder. 

 

Here and YouTube i see only lore complaints. Don't know about steam.

 

55 minutes ago, Ofisil said:

 

I'd say that it's somewhat fair to judge the story of a game if its part of the charm of the whole package. If not the story, then the overall presentation.

Secondly if a developer puts effort in actually crafting a story and/or game world then you can't just say "oh, who gives a flying fuck about the story."

 

Doom is a gameplay focused game. It is unreasonable to get upset over it having inconsistencies in the lore. Yes you can say who gives a fuck about the story if the devs say it too. The story is only an excuse for doomguy to look and do cool shit. I mean doomguy riding a fucking dragon. Devs put an effort into cutscenes and codex to make doomguy look cool not in the story, so yes, definitely who gives a shit.

 

"When a game has a shitload of lore, and plenty of cut-scenes, yeah, people have the right to talk about it, and critisise it."



Yes people can talk what they want. Who is forbidding them?

Edited by MrHofmann

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7 minutes ago, Robot_Joe said:

Why spend the resources making cutscenes and writing a codex if no one is suppose to give a shit. 


There's people that Care, others liking it how Over the tops comes (remind me of some older Japanese games and even full of bullshits like No More Heroes, Shadow of the Dammed, etc) and others for how it's a explanation of the scenarios you come forward. It's the same as the voice radios of Doom 3 in that regard, it's just there to put you in perspective.

I care for them. And i like it.

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19 minutes ago, MrHofmann said:

 

How is this reliable at all. There isn't any play time shown, the comments regarding length don't say on which difficulty they played, every encounter you are forced to kill specific enemy with specific weapon is not true and the boss fight is crap because it plays like the marauder. 

DLCs don't show playtime, they are part of the main game, and are shown on it.
These people paid for the DLC and played it, this makes their comments more reliable than anybody else's. Things like the difficulty they played is irrelevant. They played the game, they didn't enjoy what they experienced. This is what is relevant.
 

Quote

Here and YouTube i see only lore complaints.

Why do you believe comments posted here and youtube is more important than reviews of paying customers?

 

Quote

Doom is a gameplay focused game. It is unreasonable to get upset over it having inconsistencies in the lore. Yes you can say who gives a fuck about the story if the devs say it too. The story is only an excuse for doomguy to look and do cool shit. I mean doomguy riding a fucking dragon. Yes definitely who gives a shit.

 


They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in voice actors, writers, mocap for cutscenes, probably millions.
They do give a shit.
And you can't spend a substantial portion of the game's development time and budget to make the story, and when it gets called out for being shit, dismiss it with "who cares about story in DOOOM game? Story is like porn hahaha amirite?". Well id, If you didn't care about it since the beginning, then you shouldn't have crunched those poor bastards in a pandemic to write this shit and instead used the money to produce more levels, or just give the team a bonus.

Classic Doom story worked because it was simple, cohesive, short, consistent, and specially efficient. Not because it was inexistent.

Edited by Sergeant_Mark_IV

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@MrHofmann Hugo's mantra is "don't care about the story? Ok just play the game" and I agree with that. If you don't care don't care.

...But some do care and for a variety of reasons. Also "Doom is a gameplay focused game" feels to me similar to "hey, it's just a comic book movie" as if the rest of the ingredients (like good writing, directions, and so on) don't matter - but they do.

 

Rants are stupid? Probably. Critisizing an aspect of a product you paid money for, isn't.

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Beat it on PS4, Ultra Violence. Died maybe 4 times on the Dark Lord. Really not a hard boss when you break it down. Samur gave me a much tougher time with the spirits and the laser beams moving all over the arena. Dark Lord lets you focus entirely on him, it was a much more meaningful battle that way. Here's what my half-blind, controller-using ass did to beat him:

 

Ballista - Hitting the Dark Lord when he turns green and vaporizing his dogs. Ignore the dumb tyrant. This also avoids errant shots that risk healing him.

Plasma Gun - For getting zombies into glory kill. The Zombies. Endless health and armor standing there waiting for you the entire fight...

Chaingun in Turret mode - For damaging the Dark Lord. Pop two grenades at his feet while dumping bullets into him. Three times and he's into his next phase.

 

After every attack replenish your hammer with the zombies in case he summons his big gang. Run right into the middle of them and hammer-time. Done.

His shield dash: Raises his shield, count one second, then double-dash left or right. Done. 

 

Equip the speed rune for glory kills, it trivializes this fight. 

 

On 3/19/2021 at 7:02 AM, Quasar said:

I might honestly uninstall the game because I don't need to be spending this much time thinking about it.

 

I agree. At your age if this is how you engage with your hobby then maybe you simply don't have the temperament anymore.

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31 minutes ago, Use said:

After every attack replenish your hammer with the zombies in case he summons his big gang. Run right into the middle of them and hammer-time.

The quick tip clearly says "using hammer kills ALL summoned demons". Actually it clears just small radius, not all in arena :(

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3 hours ago, The_SloVinator said:

I second that.

 

I also thought the ending in the base game was perfect. Demonic invasion gets halted on Earth after Sin dies & that's where Slayer finally deserves some rest. What Id needs to do is put a spotlight on Ranger & get him back in action. And no, not in multiplayer.

Well, Icon is not dead. His heart and Valen's son yes, but Icon itself is just staggered by Crucible in his brain. Remove crucible blade, he arises.
Anyway Icon fight was one of greatest boss fights as opposite to Dark lord.

Spoiler

 

I like the ending in AG2 more and more. What is Slayer suppose to do on Fortress? Live nerd life of gaming and practicing weapons in prisonerium? Manage pilgrim visits on Fortress?

I was surprised, how he show human emotion for first time, like "what the hell is happening", instead of some Living Saint "my duty is over, time to go into tomb again and wait". I would like if Samur, after transformation & heavy beating again in Hayedn's robo-body was present among maykrs and says some sarcastic goodbye as in 2016 again. Lets only hope, that he is not in his sarcophagus consious, like Hellbrute pilots in Warhammer.

 

 

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I enjoyed TAG2 much more than TAG1.

 

The levels: In the beginning I was a bit disappointed. I don't enjoy medieval settings but the World Spear started in an ancient village, it felt like Gothic, Witcher or Warcraft. But after a while World Spear got much better, the environment became much more "epic". I was a bit skeptical about Reclaimed Earth in the beginning but it turned out to be very good. Immora was a blast. Overall I think each of TAG2s level was on par with the Blood Swamps.

 

The gameplay: Much better pacing than TAG1. I remember many moments in TAG1 when I was getting bored because of never ending arena fights. TAG2s balancing and progress was much better. As you proceed, the fights get more intense. But you don't get forced in a 10 minute arena fight anymore. I like the concept of the gore nests - it's up to the player whether he wants longer lasting encounters or not. And you even get rewarded. TAG2 was a much more satisfying experience than TAG1. I did all gore nest enconters and enjoyed them but I would have hated them if I would have been forced into them.

 

The story: I'm actually not sure whether I like it or not. TAG1s plot twist was you destroy the lifesphere of the father and restore the dark lord. But in TAG2 we learned the whole father story was just fake and the dark lord is the creator of all things. He even directed Samur. I don't know why id Software decided for this plot twist, in my opinion it was not necessary.

 

The story turned out to be the only weakness of TAG2:

  • Why was the dark lord shouting "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" after the player killed the Khan Maykr if it was his plan all the time?
  • In TAG1s ending the dark lord was introduced as hells mightiest warrior, making players curious why he looks like the Slayer. I wasn't even sure if the person in TAG1s ending is "a dark lord" (mightiest warrior of the 4th age) or "the dark lord" (Davoth). In TAG2 he was revealed as the creator of all things, even the Slayer.
  • Samur told the Slayer he knew who he where when he set foot in his world. If he knew about his origin, why did he bring him to the divinity machine at all?

But TAG2 also has some satisfying conclusions:

  • In the end the Slayer is referred as Doomguy, making him independent again.
  • Urdak is restored, the Slayer is sealed away. The door is wide open for spin offs or even a new Doom game.
  • His origin explains why he is referred as the beast, even by hell itself.

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Regarding the Dark Lord shouting “NOOOOOOOO” after you kill the Khan Maykr, apparently this got changed back:

 


Keep in mind that it was only changed to “Dark Lord” once TAG1 came out and was “Mysterious Voice” when the base game first came out.

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what ever Id decides to do with Doom moving forward. i hope its even more ludicrious and cartoony than Eternal just to prove a point... but with less purple goo and Cursed Enemies :( 

 

This is something i felt was missing from modern games, that wild, "lets throw every idea we can throw" design.

I love Rise of the Triad because of that attitude and it's how i go about my mods.

Spoiler

Riding a Dragon to the next area? i mean most AAA devs would just have him use a teleporter or use an Armored Jeep.

Does it work all the time? Not really, most of the criticzm here shows that. but its anything but Safe or Formulaic than most AAA outputs and that something i will commend id for.

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FYI: if you want to farm Doom Levels, get to the final boss and then exit to the main menu and reload the final boss encounter (from the main menu for me it's down-down-enter-enter-enter-up-enter). Every time the fight starts you gain another Doom Level. You can use the console and the disconnect or leavegame command to instantly kick yourself out to the main menu after, sadly I can't find any way to reload the level with a console command.

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8 minutes ago, Man of Doom said:

Regarding the Dark Lord shouting “NOOOOOOOO” after you kill the Khan Maykr, apparently this got changed back

So the story got rewritten twice? Really strange. 

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3 hours ago, Use said:

I agree. At your age if this is how you engage with your hobby then maybe you simply don't have the temperament anymore.

Or maybe it's just a shitty boss fight.

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I'm curious if the folks telling Quasar that he's too old for a boss fight know he's a game developer. These have been such a strange sequence of posts to read, I don't think I've seen anything quite like it. Is it just Eternal where a bunch of teenagers think you can age out of circle strafing or something?

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Doom being more cartoony should be an actual cel-shaded "comic book" art style, so the games are stylized and can have their goofyness, while also maintainig a level of grittyness, since Doom is the "90's game your grandma thought was evil".

Because a problem with making Doom "sillier" is when you realize it makes it "safer" so that rebel spirit is small but you also don't want to make it too much like an edgy fanfiction.

I feel like Doomguy's face in 3D could have been stylized so it would have been more faithfull and even have the "flat top" on his head that BJ also had.

There is "bread crumbs" of a true "id aesthetic" to explore, even if it means hyperfocusing on weirdly specific stuff.

Pick ups could also benefit from finding a great balance between "fits the theme, may exist in the setting" and "you can identify it, from far away or during combat".

Because Eternal and 2016 are AAA games, they have a very detailed art style and maybe a few trends of designs. (even if classic Doom also had it)

 

Dragons are also a very "fresh" inclusion in Doom, so helicopters can't be that weird, as long as you give them some unique UAC look.

Or even have one corrupted by Hell, so it becomes another type of cybernetic enemy that you can fight.

I mean, Doom will always have some trends or influences from a certain status, one way or another.

The artwork Sigil uses, for example, has a great contrast to the art style of the new games and before Urdak, we had a joke holy water gun in a mobile game.

But if "getting Doom" seems like an hard task, you could pull off a logic of "X can exist, as long as Y is still allowed" with some lines to be drawn somewhere.

 

I do wonder how would people react if Doom demons started to look either more "symbolic" or abstract, like a wierd clash of "beautiful painting"-like JRPG monsters and weird suff trying to mimick Wayne Barlowe.

Letting the visuals alone make people think.

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My thoughts on TAG2

Its Pretty good.

I liked the story, the levels, and the final boss beat him first try as well (On ITYTD that is).

don't know why everyone seems to hate this as much as youngblood.

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@terrcraftguy695 I agrre with the "Its Pretty good" comment. I just wanted sth more than "pretty good." Didn't you find the last boss fight to be kind of anticlimactic, as opposed to, say, the S.Mastermind (2016), or the Icon of Sin (2020 AND 1994)?

 

The only thing I liked in the end was the "No" and the return to the tomb (just not the reasoning behind it)

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I'm not sure if its better than the 2020 IOS
But it is for sure better than IOS 1994 and SM 2016.

 

It is kinda hard (for someone playing on ITYTD) but I didn't see it as a "Bad fight" it felt fine.

I really can't see why this boss Is getting so much hate.
 

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@terrcraftguy695 for me it was repetitive (five phases that are practically the same), and WAY too easy for a boss fight, especially after getting my ass handed over to me by the TAG1 boss.

 

I also don't like his own version of the waiting game. The 2016 Guardians were cool, the Gladiator was fine, the Marauders are fine - I didn't like his style, though.

...And, a completly personal nitpick, I didn't like his design. I would prefer a dark doom slayer, or something... well, demonic, rather than a darth vader mecha with horns.

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50 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I'm curious if the folks telling Quasar that he's too old for a boss fight know he's a game developer.

 

If being "a game developer" entitled one to the final say in how a game should be seen, then I suppose nobody can criticise any element of it at all, because it was put there by game developers who presumably thought it good enough in the first place :p

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4 minutes ago, xdarkmasterx said:

 

If being "a game developer" entitled one to the final say in how a game should be seen, then I suppose nobody can criticise any element of it at all, because it was put there by game developers who presumably thought it good enough in the first place :p

You seem to be projecting there because nobody suggested he was trying to have the "final say in how the game should be seen". But aside from anything else, that's a flawed argument to make anyway given that would fail the drinking ones own coolaid rule. You can't judge the thing you made yourself, regardless of whoever you happen to be.

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I just got to the end of TAG2, and am firmly in the "The Dark Lord boss fight sucks ass".  I spent literally 45 minutes fighting him on Phase 3 without making any progress - he couldn't kill me, and I couldn't kill him.  It'd be minutes of hard work to get him to reasonably low health, and then one single missed dodge and he'd use the shield bash followed by a sword combo and get all his health back.

 

I just quit.  I can't appreciate a gameplay mechanic that undos the time you put into something so quickly.   Life is too short for that.

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1 minute ago, Edward850 said:

You seem to be projecting

🙄

 

1 minute ago, Edward850 said:

 nobody suggested he was trying to have the "final say in how the game should be seen".

I was responding to your trying to deflect criticism, of his critique, using his status as a developer. Why bring it up, otherwise?

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4 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

DLCs don't show playtime, they are part of the main game, and are shown on it.
These people paid for the DLC and played it, this makes their comments more reliable than anybody else's. Things like the difficulty they played is irrelevant. They played the game, they didn't enjoy what they experienced. This is what is relevant.
 

 

If someone says that enemy encounters are bad because they force you to use specific weapons against specific enemies, that makes them unreliable because that simply is not true, regardless if they paid for the game or not. It is not a matter of opinion.

 

4 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Why do you believe comments posted here and youtube is more important than reviews of paying customers?

 

I did not imply that. I meant to say that I visit only Doomworld and YouTube and am not familiar with steam.

 

4 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in voice actors, writers, mocap for cutscenes, probably millions.
They do give a shit.
And you can't spend a substantial portion of the game's development time and budget to make the story, and when it gets called out for being shit, dismiss it with "who cares about story in DOOOM game? 

 

Again, I'm not saying they don't give a shit about the money they spent on cutscenes, writing, voice acting... I'm saying that the purpose of that is to make doomguy look cool, not to have a 100% consistent story. It is obvious that they don't care about inconsistencies.

 

I have to admit I can't fully argue with you on the DLC 2 because I haven't finished it yet, but I really think you are trying to hard to confirm your opinion with this data.

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