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There is plenty of story left for a new Doom game

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Posted (edited)

You know after the Khan Maykr fight you hear the "NOOOO" from a mysterious voice? Hugo confirmed in his last stream that's a entity beyond the ones we see.

 

So buckle up friends, much more tedious lore to be had.

Edited by Chezza

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Chezza said:

You know after the Khan Maykr fight you hear the "NOOOO" from a mysterious voice? Hugo confirmed in his last stream that's a entity beyond the ones we see.

 

So buckle up friends, much more tedious law to be had.

"Confirmed"...more like he made it up right there and then, considering they've changed the subtitle in the main game twice XD

It's actually sad. I mean, it's fine to change ideas while working on a project, but come on man...

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Z.Franz said:

I mean, it's fine to change ideas while working on a project, but come on man...

Thats just what happens when you have corporations calling the shots and not Developers, those types of stories take time, but investors don't have TIME.

 

One thing I learned with software development, If something doesn't work right, Its not because we didn't try, its because we ran out of time. It's sad that software development is so stuck with crunch culture.

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1 hour ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Thats just what happens when you have corporations calling the shots and not Developers, those types of stories take time, but investors don't have TIME.

 

One thing I learned with software development, If something doesn't work right, Its not because we didn't try, its because we ran out of time. It's sad that software development is so stuck with crunch culture.

Yeah, I guess you're right

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Posted (edited)

Lore interview with Hugo Martin from Tyler McVicker:

 

 

---

 

Notes:

 

(1) Intermission Between 2016 and Eternal

 

Wants to have a series of illustrations for the Slayer's Club that goes over the events between Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. There's a broad idea but the specifics of the story have not been figured out yet.

 

(2) Deag Nilox's Coin

 

Slayer already "kicked the shit out of someone" and this will be a part of the illustrations mentioned above.

 

(3) Samur's Fate

 

Can't say and doesn't know yet. They want to leave it open for the future. Reaffirms that Samur is not dead and will continue with the Transfiguration, which turns all Maykrs into "giant Cthulhu monsters". With Urdak in ruins and The Father gone, this will be the fate for all Maykrs.

 

(4) Eternal Lore in 2016

 

They had broad strokes for ideas but there were "twists, turns, and pivots" along the way. Admits "it would be bullshit to say they had it all planned out".

 

(5) VEGA's Planned Destruction in 2016

 

Samuel did not know the Slayer would back up VEGA. Samuel is like a butler in charge of an amnesiac - his own ego means he doesn't want to follow the rules anymore. States that Doom Eternal is a series of bad managers that should be fired - Samuel wants to run everything but screws up, The Father wants to run everything but screws up, Davoth wants to run everything but screws up, etc. Samuel knows the Father/VEGA can't do anything anymore in 2016 and so stopped playing the role of "good servant" a long time ago, becoming "headstrong" with power and autonomy. When Samuel asks the Slayer to destroy VEGA, there is a "streak" in Samuel that wants to be in charge. Samuel isn't looking for power - he wants to be in charge. He believes he's the best one to run things. The Dark Lord plays on this when manipulating him. In general, the Dark Lord's influence is comparable to Satan's influence - a biblical interpretation of evil in planting impure thoughts in others. It's not that Samuel wanted to "kill" the Father/VEGA, but that he just wanted to discard him - a servant who ran out of use a long time ago.

 

Aside: Hugo says they would "like to get out of the Codex and onto the screen" more often in the future to better develop/convey the story. This answer was in response to VEGA's fate and Samuel's goals in 2016.

 

(6) Davoth as a Creator

 

Davoth isn't in complete charge. "Only a primeval or something stronger could kill a primeval" is set-up for future lore, about the origins of primevals and whether there is a greater presence than them. Reaffirms that Mysterious Voice was always the intended subtitle for the Urdak cutscene (points to it being the original subtitle for launch) and that the subtitle change to the Dark Lord was an error in a patch. Supposed to set-up a mystery about someone who could be above it all. Is there a God in this world? Who made Davoth? What is a primeval?

 

The Dark Lord did not create Doomguy, he imbued him with his power. Doomguy was born and Davoth had nothing to do with that. When he "made" Doomguy (I presume he's referring to the Slayer), he didn't know that was Doomguy. The Slayer was imprisoned at the beginning of 2016 because the Dark Lord didn't want him to escape and wreak more havoc, as the Slayer wasn't a weapon they could control. Eventually, the Slayer would destroy the Maykrs as the Dark Lord wanted because of their connection to Hell - and the Slayer would destroy anybody who allies with Hell. Him fighting against the demons as well was an unintended part of the Dark Lord's plan.

 

(7) Slayer and Davoth's Identical Faces

 

Related to the origin of primevals and the Mysterious Voice.

 

(8) Sentinels Arriving on Immora Without The Gate of Divum

 

Some Sentinels were still alive in Hell (but not all of them came from Hell, others came from the Sentinel world). However, he admits their appearance is a plot hole that wouldn't stand to scrutiny and that they would have to address it later.

 

(9) Handling the Doom Brand

 

Considers the Doom brand like Excalibur. Recognizes they won't have it forever and will eventually move on. They will make mistakes sometimes but it's not out of a lack of effort. Treats the brand as a precious thing. That's why Doomguy rides a dragon in TAG 2, because "he deserves everything". Hugo is very passionate about Doomguy and sees him as a superhero - wants to make a game "worthy of his awesomeness".

 

Aside: Wanted more for the Dark Lord boss fight but had limitations due to TAG being a DLC and boss fights taking a long time to develop.

 

(10) Doom 3 Canonicity

 

May have misspoke about Doom 3 being canon but says that its visual aesthetic is shared with Doom 2016 - and that Doom 2016 is "a reboot" that draws influence from all Dooms. They tried to connect Doom 64 to Doom 2016 "story-wise", but reaffirms that 2016 is a reboot.

 

---

 

EDIT:

 

Thoughts:

 

1 - This just re-confirms what we already knew. However, the fact that the "specifics" are still yet to be worked out makes me think this might not get released anytime soon.

 

2 - Also re-confirms what we already knew.

 

3 - Hugo describing Transfigured Maykrs as "giant Cthulhu monsters" makes me think of Quake 1, but that's just wishful thinking...

 

4 - At least he admits they didn't plan it all out.

 

5 - This explanation of the VEGA moment in 2016 certainly fits with Samuel's personality. I think the conflicting evidence came from TAG 1 lore which seemed to suggest that Samur was really fulfilling The Father's will this entire time.

 

6 - I'm still not convinced that Mysterious Voice was intended to be something greater entity based on previous discussions on this forum. It's also hard to digest that Davoth really isn't supposed to be the creator of all things - when he himself says "As all things were made by my hand... so shall they be unmade. Starting with you." and The Father also reaffirms this by saying "By his hand, all things were made... including you." The Father also calls Davoth the "first being" in the transition cutscene. In any case, it seems they will be sticking with the "greater presence" angle, especially since the Elemental Wraiths were apparently released from what appears to be a spaceship on World Spear and Hugo is suggesting that the origin of the Primevals is an open-ended question.

 

I'm rather glad that Hugo confirmed that the Dark Lord did not create Classic Doomguy as I had previously thought. However, I thought so because of the quotes mentioned above by the Dark Lord and The Father - in which they both specify Doomguy as a creation of Davoth. Not to mention that Doomguy and Davoth share the same face.

 

7 - Does this imply that the other Primevals all look like Doomguy too?

 

8 - At least he admits it's a plot hole. Personally, I would say that the Sentinels, under leadership by Valen, were able to track the Slayer's position and then teleport next to him once he arrived in Hell. It's just that the Gate of Divum is needed to reach Immora in the first place at all.

 

9 - Nice to see Hugo be passionate about Doom. Not sure if people will agree with the "superhero" comparison. If the Dark Lord couldn't be done in the way they wanted to because of DLC limitations, they really should've saved him for a future Doom game. Also, it's not just "base game expectations" that people had of the Dark Lord's boss fight - Samur previously had a unique boss fight in TAG1, so that set the precedent.

 

10 - I figured this was the case because Hugo's response to the Doom 3 question on that livestream seemed rather hurried/distracted. It also seems like they really don't have anything about the multiverse, otherwise that would've been an answer.

 

Interestingly, he refers to Doom 2016 as a "reboot" rather than a sequel. It was marketed as a reboot, of course, but Doom Eternal retroactively suggested this story was really a sequel set after the events of Doom 64 when they showed the Sentinel Prime cutscene. If it's linked to Doom 64 "story-wise" but is considered a reboot regardless, then perhaps the closest comparison I can think of is The Hulk 2003 and The Incredible Hulk (2008) movies. The ending of Hulk 2003 seems linked to Hulk 2008 (Bruce Banner living in South America, Bruce and Betty separated, and Hulk 2008 skimming over the backstory/origin), but they are not really connected. Hulk 2008 is a reboot that is "linked" to the 2003 movie in terms of story in some aspects (and apparently originally planned to be a sequel), but the 2008 movie is the one that's connected to the Marvel Cinematic Universe with its own canon. In that regard, perhaps Doom 2016 is "story linked" to Doom 64 in terms of how the stories may be connected (Doomguy in Hell, Doomguy wearing Classic armor, etc.) but the two games are separate canons. The only reason we ever needed a multiverse in the first place was because Classic Doomguy and Doom Slayer being the same person raised a lot of questions in terms of timeline continuity - if they are not actually the same person, then that would solve that problem on its own. But if they're not the same person, then that raises questions on where this new Doomguy is actually from or why he sees visions of Daisy. Or maybe Hugo didn't really mean a hard reboot but rather a soft reboot (like Star Wars: The Force Awakens). I don't know, somebody will have to ask Hugo to clarify what he means by Doom 2016 being a reboot.

Edited by AtimZarr1 : Thoughts

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1 hour ago, AtimZarr1 said:

VEGA's Planned Destruction in 2016

 

Samuel did not know the Slayer would back up VEGA.  When Samuel asks the Slayer to destroy VEGA It's not that Samuel wanted to "kill" the Father/VEGA, but that he just wanted to discard him - a servant who ran out of use a long time ago.

 

Thats why Samuel notices "and thank you" when Slayer click back up?

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1 hour ago, Yurax said:

 

Thats why Samuel notices "and thank you" when Slayer click back up?

 

Samuel doesn't seem to notice and his thanks is not to the Slayer. Specifically, he says "Thank you VEGA" - referring to VEGA's sacrifice in opening a gateway to Argent D'Nur / Hell.

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Nice. That actually puts my mind at rest.... I like it when people own up to mistakes and are honest about where they dropped the ball.

 

cool with me. I still have questions but now I know the answers are just because they didn’t think everything through clearly enough 

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Reboot, excellent I was hoping and thinking it was the case but when I previously heard Hugo talk about "multiverse in some form" it made me think it was some lazy Marvel writing.

 

Despite that we saw the original Doom Marine's helmet in Sentinel Prime, it's still a separate rebooted universe borrowing ideas from the original, paying tribute and Easter eggs. I like this, as it makes sense now and doesn't interfere with the classics. None of this "Hell invaded during classic Dooms, Doom 3 and Doom 2016" crap which doesn't make sense.

 

Still, not a big fan of new Doom's story that over compensation with lore. I think it will take many other installments with backstory to stick it altogether in order to become more comprehendible. Regardless, the pacing of the story / lore telling will always be criticised.

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Posted (edited)

If it's really a reboot, why tie the protagonist to the old one? Why have the Doomslayer be "Doomguy" with the same armor if it's not really him? Why not simply make him a guy from Argent D'nur at this point, like some people speculated in Doom2016?

I feel like they didn't know what they wanted the game to be...reboot or stealth sequel. Kinda reminds me of Thief 2014.

 

Also: what did the demons take from him if Doom1&2 are not part of this universe? And when?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Z.Franz said:

If it's really a reboot, why tie the protagonist to the old one? Why have the Doomslayer be "Doomguy" with the same armor if it's not really him? Why not simply make him a guy from Argent D'nur at this point, like some people speculated in Doom2016?

From what I understand, Doom Eternal's cannn is what if the same events from the classic happened... but then continued with the UAC mining Argent after Doom 64. Its pretty straight forward and it means the original series is unchanged.

 

Either they did something completely original or tied it to the original storyline. I don't see anything wrong with either method.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jazzmaster9 said:

From what I understand, Doom Eternal's cannn is what if the same events from the classic happened... but then continued with the UAC mining Argent after Doom 64. Its pretty straight forward and it means the original series is unchanged.

 

Either they did something completely original or tied it to the original storyline. I don't see anything wrong with either method.

Ok but why call it a reboot then? To me this sounds like an outright sequel kinda like FEAR Extraction point is to the original FEAR (it's not canon anymore, but it's still technically a sequel)

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25 minutes ago, Z.Franz said:

Ok but why call it a reboot then? To me this sounds like an outright sequel kinda like FEAR Extraction point is to the original FEAR (it's not canon anymore, but it's still technically a sequel)

Im guessing its both a sequel and a reboot. since its a new Canon that doesnt erase the old one.

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3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

From what I understand, Doom Eternal's cannn is what if the same events from the classic happened... but then continued with the UAC mining Argent after Doom 64. Its pretty straight forward and it means the original series is unchanged.

 

Either they did something completely original or tied it to the original storyline. I don't see anything wrong with either method.


Something like this?

image.png.c0af67adfe1149718838a99a4c1cf4fe.png

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I always figure these games were supposed to be reboots and made the connection of "Slayer = Doomguy", not because of the mystery and 64's ending but more because of the memes and fandom material that potentially inspired the character.

Like, i knew there may be some sort of butterfly/domino effect that lead to these games.

 

Reboot also justifies the new art style, lore, gameplay, well... almost everything: from the background and aesthetic of Hell (like how "hell tech" was done before and who created the cybernetic demons) or why Doomguy's face is not quite that faithfull in HD.

A lot of basic assumptions people would have made about the series in general seem a bit different to what the new games present, despite these games also being influenced by recent portrayals by the public.

 

Not that anyone "has" to "get Doom" or look much into how some fans did it, but in some way, the fact that the fanbase already "overdid" Doom before id probably justifies the reinvention of the identity.

But even with those fans that "got it too much" or "adopted" the series and carried it, there's a contrast between those and fans that either don't get basic things or even participate in rumors/myths/misconceptions flying around that shape up how people look at Doom.

 

Reminds me of Decino making a video about how Doom weapons work but he used those fanmade sprites where Doomguy actually carries the guns in use and he doesn't specity that part, so that could potentially lead to confusion.

Even if it's something that can be easily and quickly searched on Google.

 

I still think that the "Doom universe" as a concept may have a downside of potentially limiting stuff or creating rules that could prevent some ideas.

Part of why i thought "alt lores" or a comic book franchise-esque direction where some games just have their own styles and such would seem a bit fair.

Specially with how previous games were done and just how people treated Doom for years.

There's more stories to tell in the 2016/Eternal universe, but when it comes to gameplay, there's probably room for creativity that may or may not suit the current "Doom dance", making me wonder if a "Doom 6" would need a newer engine or refined id tech 7.

I feel like ZeniMax wants more to be done with Doom, so i feel like there could at least be some justifications for other potentially oversaturating the brand.

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Posted (edited)

You can reboot a game or movie and not reboot the canon or story completely. It's just Doom 3's story sadly was not fit into what they decided.

Timeline before 2016 goes something like:

 

  • Doom 1 and 2 happen, kicking starting the man's eternal hatred for demons.
  • Doom 64 happens, Marine saves earth again but chooses to stay in hell because he's had enough of earth being invaded. His only purpose is to kill demons now, probably stayed there for a long time.

 

Is eventually almost killed and finds a portal...

 

  • Doomed Space Marine with crippling PTSD about demons gets spat into Argent d' Nur presumably millions of years before humanity even existed 
  • Argent Energy is secretly invented as an accidental result of the marine bringing the demons with him to that world and Urdak becoming aware of Hell's existence. Oops
  • Davoth secretly convinces Samur Maykr to convince himself that he is a prophet, and that he needs to juice the marine up with god power because Khan Maykr bad
  • Samur and the Father run away to hide on Earth, out of the Father's fear of Davoth. Father strips his stolen divine power to become VEGA but can not remember himself after that. Samur dropped his Maykr form in favor of a cloned human body to hide.

 

The rest of the Sentinel arc happens, Marine as a god king now commands the Sentinels to destroy Hell with him, but they find out about the Khan Maykr's deal with Davoth...

 

  • A very very long time (presumably eons) passes after Valen's betrayal that ruined the Slayer's war against the Khan Maykr. Hell is now being tortured and brought to its knees by the Slayer who has been fighting since.
  • Everyone has had enough of him. So the Hell Priests lure him into a temple, collapsed it, and then trap him in a cursed sarcophagus
  • Dark Lord writes the Slayer testaments; warns all of Hell that his failed experiment inside the box is a terrifying monster that will kill everyone.
  • Samuel dances into Hell with a robot body and retrieves the thing that will kill everyone like its his own weapon, brings it to an Earth he already has had influence over for a long time now. And so the cycle continues...

 

Got convoluted very fast? Lots of things we still don't know? Yup. That's probably why it's not ever broken down like that in the game, it's too complicated to explain to most people and especially to those who don't particularly care or like the direction it is going. 

 

When the only official explanation for classic timeline being canon is "yeah he saved a different earth", they're not going for small strokes with the story that aren't worth explaining. They're going all in with the multi-dimensional stuff. Trying to fit Doom 3 in on top of this would be even worse even if it may not be hard to do with existing information. It's more important to move the story forward and address smaller issues with it as they go IMO, they have a lot set up and can go in quite a few directions.

 

Edited by oCrapaCreeper

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The "it's a reboot- no it's a sequel- whoopsie I mean reboot" dance is about as coherent as the plot at this point. 

 

If takes place "assuming Doom 1, 2 and 64 happened... but what if after-" , it's a sequel by definition. And that being the case, it's a really odd-ball sequel that, as of TAG 1 and 2, has become quite tonally and stylistically confusing. Cool, fun, even in a lot of cases awesome in its own right, absolutely! I'd be lying if I said I didn't think the Immora assault cutscene didn't get me pumped for what it was... but what it isn't is "Industrial hell where blasphemous, evil incarnate attacks mankind in the recognizable future". It's a high-fantasy adventure now. 

 

The only thing calling a reboot and a "this is what might happen if the UAC..." does is tell me that they want to leave the door open for yet another reboot at some point down the line. Which I imagine is kind of inevitable, even if that some point is another ten to fifteen years of current-Doom's world. Which... honestly, they could just do that without needing to leave an opening, really. 

 

I don't know, I just think that it's a bit confusing as to which way they actually want to take it at this point, and the interview didn't really clear up much, other than the intention to leave behind the "grit" version entirely. Which, as I've said before, is a little odd, given Martin's professed love of 64, which was waaaaay darker in atmosphere than anything except Doom 3. 

 

I am absolutely still looking forward to what comes next, as the current lore state and that final boss are really my only problems with Eternal, but I am hoping that someone eventually re-visits the concept of "sci fi marines vs Hell" with  a bit more of that classic grit at some point. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I just thought of a comparison to following Eternals story telling. It's like getting someone new into the 40k franchise and jumps straight into the middle of the Horus Heresy betrayal.

 

What's the warp? What's a Primarch? An Arstartes? Who are all these characters and why are they important? Why would someone listen to a Demon.. Daemon? So why is the Emperors children betraying him? So Psykers are space Wizards?

 

You would need to first learn all the lore of Warhammer 40k and read the story from beginning. Eternal has me feeling it's like that scenario except there is bugger all reliable lore prior playing the game, only vague hints.

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9 hours ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

I am absolutely still looking forward to what comes next, as the current lore state and that final boss are really my only problems with Eternal, but I am hoping that someone eventually re-visits the concept of "sci fi marines vs Hell" with  a bit more of that classic grit at some point. 

 

You compressed in a single sentece all my concerns about the current state of the game.

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2 hours ago, hurricane hoatzine said:

I will like a cross over warhammer 40k and doom eternal 

 

I am not sure, how the Slayer would react to comissar, increasing morale of his men (in warhammer, it is done by summary shooting the "coward" one among the squad). I think that comissar will be next glory kill.

Warhammer game in Eternal style would be great, but with different characters than Slayer. Maybe even both sides playable. Same maps, just switch enemies and allies.

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There's already a space marine game where you get health and stuff from performing special kills.

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8 hours ago, Robot_Joe said:

There's already a space marine game where you get health and stuff from performing special kills.

 Unfortunately third person view one. I was so disappointed by this :(

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I thought western game companies had more trouble with crossovers.

Unless it's usually same dev/publisher owned IP's.

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Posted (edited)

That big blue portal in the Ingmore's Sanctum is still left unexplained. I feel like it leads to wherever Davoth came from.

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On 4/8/2021 at 4:08 PM, jazzmaster9 said:

Im guessing its both a sequel and a reboot. since its a new Canon that doesnt

erase the old one.

 

A Reboot reboots the prerior Entries by desciption :P

Doom 16 and Eternal are Sequels, they even did new Levels for Doom 64 to connect it.

Doom 3 is a true Reboot.

So they accomplished to have a numbered Reboot called Doom 3 and a Sequel for Doom called Doom.


But lets see, maybe we'll get some Day Games that will ignore 16 and Eternal and only take the classics as Source, a partial Reboot.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Azuris said:

 

A Reboot reboots the prerior Entries by desciption :P

Doom 16 and Eternal are Sequels, they even did new Levels for Doom 64 to connect it.

Doom 3 is a true Reboot.

So they accomplished to have a numbered Reboot called Doom 3 and a Sequel for Doom called Doom.


But lets see, maybe we'll get some Day Games that will ignore 16 and Eternal and only take the classics as Source, a partial Reboot.

 

From my understanding Doom Eternal's follows and alternate version of the original canon where Doom 64 is NOT the end. So its both, its a sequel to a rebooted storyline that has the same events as the classic.

but its pretty much arguing semantics at this point.

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For me, it allwas was -

Doom2016 = Doom (hell on mars)

Eternal = Doom 2 - hell on Earth

Same story, just in new graphics and few tweaks. Old Dooms was such graphic abstractness, that nobody notices flow of story, that now you are on infested Earth, there in Sentinel castle and here in Nekravol style factory. You just walk and kill.

It was nonsense, that just one surviving soldier handles all that hordes alone - we even as kids notices that - so introduction of enhanced Slayer was only logical.

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Classic Doom was abstract but i think anyone can know the setting was rather "Hell on a Earthly looking Phobos with blue carpets", specially with the years of mods and HD "remastered" textures or the documented/available info.

It was 3 that sort of simplified the setting by using Mars but 64 also didn't have the same type of Hell with the "hell tech" and eye switches.

Sentinels and Urdak are very fresh elements, specially if you expected more generic/old medieval nights or "traditional" angels.

 

The Slayer, to me, seems more like an opposite of the Doom 3 marine and a result of fanservice and absorbing outsider elements, that feel like a result of a domino or butterfly effect (reactions to Doom 3/COD/Halo, how ALWAYS_RUN was adopted in vanilla gameplay, the comic, Death Battle, even something like Brutal Doom or recurring 4chan memes through a copypasta or comics by Faraz Parsa, because i recall him being called "Doombro")

I feel like Doomguy might as well be a middle ground between "doomer" and "doomed".

Sure, he's a one man army, but i feel like this is like a difference between a low-tech guy with outdated weaponry, that bleeds on his face and another that is a demigod with supernatural, advanced armor.

 

Adding to a previous post of mine: the thing with getting Doom is that it was never deep and wasn't a high IQ thing, but i also wonder how much of that "no one has to get Doom" can play with the creative liberties in these games.

As in, only some people with notice the differences, whether it's an upset /v/ user, nerd with too much knowledge or someone like MatthewMatosis when he did the "Doom is not the same but that's okay" bit in that clip from microvideos 2.

It's also a series with a limited universe, so there's the issue with making it seem smaller than it should be and how fitting are the new ideas.

 

Speaking of story, i recall the Doom 2016 former story involving a cyborg.

That gets even closer to "Halo/Marathon territory" but if it was a spin-off character and not THE Doomguy, i guess it'd be fine.

Besides, cybernetic humans aren't really a thing in Doom yet.

It could technically make sense, specially if you managed to make it fit the UAC aesthetic or even create a new enemy/former human type.

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