Sony CEO makes awesome take on old video games.

[Rytrik]

20 minutes ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

If it's good probably but I've heard some not good things about it and uh ... WC3 Reforged ....... yeah. 

Not holding my breath.

 

What not good things have you heard? It was only announced recently. Plus MrLlamaSC's interview with the D2:R dev team @ Blizzcon seemed promising. They appear to have a better handle on it than the WC3 team did with making Reforged. 

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

15 minutes ago, cracky-bracky said:

Okay ill give some more context.

I'm not necessarily defending MS-DOS support on Windows 10, i was just talking about the whole "old game bad new game good" thing he said.

 

And I'm saying it's a case-by-case thing. In this case, he's right, there are not many good PS1 games to make it worth keeping the backwards compatibility forever. It's a waste of resources and unnecessary bloat to the hardware.
The ones that are absolute masterpieces that deserves to be preserved already have PC ports. The ones that don't, can be emulated on PC. So, why continue to do it?

[Mr. Freeze]

Just make an official emulator lol 

[Maes]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Eh, I do not know. Lots of people seem to still love Wolfenstein 3D, even if I find it outdated in every way - except maybe the music.

That's something I can relate to -taking a honest look at it, its gameplay was straight out of the 1980s, very Battlezone 3D-esque, with it's only true selling point being that it was (partially) textured and had a faster gameplay than previous similar titles, which played more like sterile simulators. I think most of its fame came after Doom came out, being associated with it as its "father".

[cracky-bracky]

21 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

And I'm saying it's a case-by-case thing. In this case, he's right, there are not many good PS1 games to make it worth keeping the backwards compatibility forever. It's a waste of resources and unnecessary bloat to the hardware.
The ones that are absolute masterpieces that deserves to be preserved already have PC ports. The ones that don't, can be emulated on PC. So, why continue to do it?

Yes, but what he said implies that ALL PS1/PS2 era games are bad. (in my opinion anyways)

I also agree with you on "not all old PS games need current console ports.

 

And no guys, I wouldn't try to find logic in a generic, corporate statement.

 

[Doomkid]

I wouldn’t say every console should have full backwards compatibility because it’s clearly a tall order.. 

 

I have to admit though, I think it’s kind of weird that a substandard $100 PC can easily play PS1 and PS2 games using emulators that are just megabytes in size, and yet apparently that’s just waaay too expensive and resource intensive for this newfangled $750+ machine to pull off. If anything it just makes the console’s already bloated price feel like an even bigger waste of money..

 

“woohoo, this thing that costs a full week’s wage supports a whopping 11 games! Whole MINUTES of fun to be had!”

[NoXion]

If unpaid hobbyists who rely on donations can build a decent emulator, just imagine what could be done with an paid team of full-time developers working on an easy-to-use official emulator. Then they could sell the emulator for money along with the games. I'm not convinced that they wouldn't be able to recoup the money spent, the judicious use of nostalgia and the ease of use compared to unofficial emulators could be powerful tools for an advertising campaign. If marketers can convince stupid fucking idiots to buy an iPhone without a headphone socket or with a fucking notch in the screen, then they can convince enough people to pay for emulators for it to be worthwhile.

[seed]

5 hours ago, NoXion said:

If unpaid hobbyists who rely on donations can build a decent emulator, just imagine what could be done with an paid team of full-time developers working on an easy-to-use official emulator.

 

You could say that about most hobbyist projects tbh.

 

The fact is that for a company, it all comes down to time and resources and how much they're willing to invest into making it, and then, supporting it too. Hobbyists tend to dedicate a lot more time to their projects in comparison, so in the long run they'll almost always be superior, and support for much, much longer too.

Edited March 24, 2021 by seed

[NoXion]

A long-term emulation effort by these companies needn't cost the Earth, especially since we are talking about entities like Sony which are worth tens of billions of dollars in the first place. It's not like old games which are already made would need the kind of detailed asset development team that modern tripleAAA games demand these days.

Some people like to pretend that corporations are completely rational in their pursuit of profits, as if it was the only consideration that affected their decision-making, and that's simply untrue. Their decisions are also influenced by things like self-image and branding as well as corporate ethos and culture. There's no reason to believe that corps are any more reasonable than human beings.

[Maes]

2 hours ago, NoXion said:

If unpaid hobbyists who rely on donations can build a decent emulator, just imagine what could be done with an paid team of full-time developers working on an easy-to-use official emulator.

There were official emulators (including hardware-based ones, like the Firecore for the Sega Genesis), re-releases or remakes from time to time, and in general they suffered from the usual software development ailments you'd find in a large corpo -esp. if the holiday season was approaching.

[Vic Vos]

I'd say go emulators, but the scene has so much stupid ass drama that it's only comparable to the whole Internet Bloodsports saga that was happening like 2 years ago.

[Edward850]

3 hours ago, NoXion said:

If unpaid hobbyists who rely on donations can build a decent emulator, just imagine what could be done with an paid team of full-time developers working on an easy-to-use official emulator. Then they could sell the emulator for money along with the games. I'm not convinced that they wouldn't be able to recoup the money spent, the judicious use of nostalgia and the ease of use compared to unofficial emulators could be powerful tools for an advertising campaign.

Funny to note, Microsoft have been doing exactly that with OG Xbox/Xbox360 titles, and the emulator is free. Other than some initial performance niggles on the Xbox One (which was otherwise keeping up quite well with a PowerPC emulation, which is damn impressive in its own right), the only restriction they've struck has been legal due to needing to repack XVDs.

 

It's definitely cheaper and more popular than people seem to initially let on.

[NoXion]

1 minute ago, Edward850 said:

Funny to note, Microsoft have been doing exactly that, and the emulator is free. Other than some initial performance niggles on the Xbox One (which was otherwise keeping up quite well with a PowerPC emulation, which is damn impressive in its own right), the only restriction they've struck has been legal due to needing to repack XVDs.

That's actually quite impressive given the disappointing news @Maes just relayed.

[Dragonfly]

On 3/23/2021 at 11:51 AM, Roebloz said:

So his argument stands for the majority of games on the PS1, but not so much for the PS2.

 

You're showing your age, that's all.

 

I feel the same but the other way round, PS1 has far, far more memorable titles than the PS2 from my own perspective.

[DooM Bear]

On 3/23/2021 at 9:08 PM, mrthejoshmon said:

My favourite part is where they stop selling old games as physical versions, then they don't make digital versions, remasters or remakes but then proceed to takedown any copies of said unavailable, literally cannot be bought outside of third party resellers games that they have long since abandoned and have no plans for.

 

It bothers me because they won't even sell it to me, they just make it hard to get hold of for no reason, what is the point? Hoarding old forgotten stuff like a dragon has no actual advantage here.

 

*cough* Nintendo *cough*

[seed]

4 hours ago, NoXion said:

Some people like to pretend that corporations are completely rational in their pursuit of profits, as if it was the only consideration that affected their decision-making, and that's simply untrue.

 

That's a pretty bold claim, especially when many corps have demonstrated before that they care first for profit, and the rest afterwards, if at all.

[Devalaous]

15 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Just make an official emulator lol 

 

I would definitely pay for an emulator app that read my old PS1 PS2 and PS3 discs on the PS5

[Maes]

35 minutes ago, seed said:

 

That's a pretty bold claim, especially when many corps have demonstrated before that they care first for profit, and the rest afterwards, if at all.

 

There are always internal inefficiencies such as corporate politics, power struggles, mismanagement at various levels, conflict of interest, personal goals or fixations that keep even mega-corps from being the ruthless, 100% efficient machines they are often believed to be. So, they may very well miss an obvious money-making (or at least innovation) opportunity, if something else gets in the way.

[leodoom85]

1 hour ago, Dragonfly said:

PS1 has far, far more memorable titles than the PS2 from my own perspective.

PS1 pioneered the games and PS2 perfected some games.

I like both equally. Too many memorable titles that you literally won't get bored.

 

About what the CEO said....honestly, does that surprised anyone in the slightest other than giving that opinion based on their business management? Because I'm not.

 

People can play the old games one way or another because those can be valuable in terms of fun.

[Devalaous]

What worries me is PS3/360/Wii and up, given this is when DLCs and title updates and stuff started appearing. Sounds like it will make emulating that stuff more difficult.

[Maes]

1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

What worries me is PS3/360/Wii and up, given this is when DLCs and title updates and stuff started appearing. Sounds like it will make emulating that stuff more difficult.

 

Compare that with being able to cram hours of fun into what is -today- peanuts in terms of storage, in a highly portable form (ROMs and the such, but even CD images), and always talking about complete games, not something that might become functional after 100GB worth of updates applied in a specific order.

 

Those modern games, simply put, just don't have a true standalone, "plug and play" form anymore, so emulation, if at all possible, will miss that "full library of games" possibility that exists with emulating older consoles. Not that you'd really want to have a fully functional, emulated copy of every shitty PS3/PS4/PS5 sports title out there, with all of its patches and DLCs, preserved for all eternity on some maxi-form of future storage???

[Devalaous]

I just want stuff like my Wiiware games and the purchases I made to be able to be lifted off their prisons and 'future proofed'. The Wii U I have, can have all of its content ported to PC these days via a special emulator, but I need a 32 GB memory card to do so. I will be able to backup my games on there, patched and DLCed, and keep them running on the PC after Nintendo pulls the plug on the Wii U's online services. Other systems arent so likely so far.

 

This is why I loved the PS2's PS1 emulator, and to a lesser extent, the PS3's PS1 emulator. The PSP and Vita also supproted that same PS3 PS1 emulator, so I was disappointed when it wasn't on the PS4. It doesn't feel as good playing these old games unofficially on a PC to me, I enjoyed my copy of PSX Final Doom being playable on three successive systems.

 

A paid program from the Sony guys that know their systems inside and out better than anyone else, that ran 'ancient content' for us people stuck in the past, would be a godsend for me. Sony isnt in the business of freebies or being nice except to one-up Microsoft's errors, so it'd definitely be a paid srvice or app, but I could accept that, if it was quality stuff (ie get Mark Cerny, their equivalent of Carmack, to do the work)

[Bridgeburner56]

11 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I wouldn’t say every console should have full backwards compatibility because it’s clearly a tall order.. 

 

I have to admit though, I think it’s kind of weird that a substandard $100 PC can easily play PS1 and PS2 games using emulators that are just megabytes in size, and yet apparently that’s just waaay too expensive and resource intensive for this newfangled $750+ machine to pull off. If anything it just makes the console’s already bloated price feel like an even bigger waste of money..

 

“woohoo, this thing that costs a full week’s wage supports a whopping 11 games! Whole MINUTES of fun to be had!”

It'll be because PCs are infinitely better generalists than consoles. And tbh, getting old PC games to run can be a real nightmare too (glares at Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries)

[NoXion]

4 hours ago, seed said:

 

That's a pretty bold claim, especially when many corps have demonstrated before that they care first for profit, and the rest afterwards, if at all.

As @Maes pointed out, there are other factors influencing their decisions. More than that though, just because an entity has an inherent tendency to do something, that does not mean that the tendency in question is well-optimised or always usefully directed in terms of achieving the stated goal.

Like, all humans have an inherent and highly ingrained tendency to eat food in order to stay alive, but that doesn't mean that humans are entirely rational in their food choices. Instead our diets are all too often hijacked by the lure of sugar, fat and salt, nutrients which were rare and highly important in our ancestral environment, but which can be cheaply and easily produced in massive quantities with the advent of agricultural civilisations, and especially industrial civilisation. We live in a very special time in terms of human history, this world of easy travel, information overload and rich food all powered and brightly lit by harnessed lightning would have seemed entirely otherworldly to our ancestors, of whom even the most wealthy king did not enjoy the kind of things we now take for granted.

Bit of a digression there, but I believe a similar kind of goal misalignment happens with corporations and their pursuit of profits. Especially since they often consider short-term gains to be more important than long-term sustainability. And because these corporations wield more power than the kings of old could have ever dreamed of, the rest of the world also has to cleave to this logic of profit-seeking.

Sorry if this turned out to be another ill-considered "capitalism bad!" rant, but it will never stop being so wild to me that the world has these powerful entities which would privatise the atmosphere and charge us all to breathe if they thought they could get away with it.

[Gez]

On mardi 23 mars 2021 at 3:33 AM, cracky-bracky said:

Basically there's this thing about removing backwards compatibility and such on the PlayStation.

Any thoughts?

I can understand this CEO guy talking about removing a not often used feature but,

"and the PS1 and the PS2 games, they looked ancient, like why would anyone play this?"

 

Did you know the last update of the English pattern of playing card games dates back to the 19th century?

Certainly, nobody plays poker anymore due to how dated the graphics look.

[Bridgeburner56]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

Certainly, nobody plays poker anymore due to how dated the graphics look.

Yes because the graphics have been updated :D

[incel]

If I'm not mistaken, he said it, like, 4 years ago.

[Rudolph]

9 hours ago, Devalaous said:

This is why I loved the PS2's PS1 emulator, and to a lesser extent, the PS3's PS1 emulator. The PSP and Vita also supported that same PS3 PS1 emulator, so I was disappointed when it wasn't on the PS4. It doesn't feel as good playing these old games unofficially on a PC to me, I enjoyed my copy of PSX Final Doom being playable on three successive systems.

I only recently found out about the Playstation Portable's ability to run Playstation 1 games and that made me even sadder that I did not get the console while it was still supported by Sony. I just got hold of a second-hand PSP and I now find myself going through the PS1 catalogue with it; it is simply amazing how many games I have been missing out on. That, and so far, all the PS1 titles seem to be running fairly well on the console. The only issue I remember having is with Lunar 2: Eternal Blue; story sequences set at night or during flashbacks, dialogue boxes would start glitching and I could not see them. I do not know if it is an emulator problem or just the console showing its age, but I have only seen it happen with that game in particular.

 

I did try to play Playstation Doom on it too, but it is just not as fun to play as with a mouse and keyboard.

[Quasar]

Video game industry CEOs are just toy industry execs (aka lizard men in human-skin suits) dusted off and recycled. Their primitive Paleozoic-era brains don't understand concepts like fun, nostalgia, or art.

[Maes]

A somewhat tangential example of how a corp that has its hands on a potentially game-changing and lucrative technology mismanaged it so badly that it got all but forgotten: Sony's MiniDisc.

 

On paper, it looked awesome. It came out commercially in late 1992, and was a re-writeable magneto-optical disc, smaller than floppies, more robust and with more capacity than even the ZIP drives that came out later in 1996 (140 MB vs 100 MB), in a day and age where CD-R for the masses was still a few years away, and CD-RW wouldn't be seen until 2001, at least. The players/recorders themselves were portable right from the bat, sleek, compact, etc. and it offered MP3-like audio compression before that was even a thing. There even was a data variant (MD-Data) that could be hooked up to computers.

 

Sounds awesome so far,  yes? It should all but totally dominate the 1990s and not allow ZIP drives and MP3 to even be born, hell, it could even delay the onset of Flash/USB drives for a few good years.

 

And instead...due to Sony Music and Sony Sony having different goals, the format was crippled in unbelievable ways since the onset. Remember those MD-Data drives that could have replaced ZIP drives and floppies, and hell, why not, also play your favourite music on the go? Forget it, at least first-gen drives could not read audio disks. Transferring music from your computer to MDs? Only veeeery late in the format's life (late 1990s/early 2000s), and with a ton of Sony's DRM crap (only through their SonicStage program). They did eventually update them to hold up to 1 GB, but they really missed an opportunity to reshape the 1990s, simply because Sony Music really didn't want something they thought would foster music piracy. Very hard for an oldschool CEO fixated on e.g. preventing consumers from even having DAT tapes to see past that.

 

The connection is not immediate, but traditional gaming companies really didn't like emulation for similar reasons, even when technically it would be trivial to implement. Esp. Nintendo used to be hardcore-against it in the 1990s. It takes a lot of convincing an oldschool CEO that it could be a Good Thing.