I wonder about the "future" plans/post mortem state of the game

[D4NUK1]

 

9 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

When I hear people say "Doom Eternal will be forgotten in 2 years unlike Classic Doom cuz modding/deathmatch" I don't and probably never will understand it.

When there are many games that are still remembered years later than don't have an active competitive or scene.

And they are open to the modifications of some modders, like the Horde Mode, Randomizer Mode/ Dark Lord Arena Mode. Even if people will not make Megawads style of games, they are still open to the modders, they don't delete that or block the mods, even they embrace it for inspiration. Just heared this here.

DOOM Eternal: Hugo Martin's Game Director Playthrough - Ch.10 Urdak + Final Sin - YouTube

On your point of games still be played even if they not have mods, there many's one:

-Main Mario Games
-Casletvanias Syphony of the Nigth.
-Street Figthers
-Sillent Hills
-Dark Souls
-Etc

They are still played, even they classics ones, because how well crafted they are, and Doom Eternal shares as a one of the greatest hits in the Doom Saga. And the fanbase of Eternal (Not Counting old Doom) will make alive for the game like many fanbase do it. For now, i'm just celebrating this B-day while i'm downloading the game again.

Edited March 26, 2021 by jamondemarnatural

[GraphicBleeder]

Being honest, I don't see this game lasting long without mod support.

 

 

Yeah, the main campaign and the DLCs are fun.


But, what then? Doom Eternal's style of gameplay is unique and interesting. Custom levels made around this would bring in so many more players.

[jazzmaster9]

12 minutes ago, GraphicBleeder said:

Being honest, I don't see this game lasting long without mod support.

 

 

Yeah, the main campaign and the DLCs are fun.


But, what then? Doom Eternal's style of gameplay is unique and interesting. Custom levels made around this would bring in so many more players.

But the  there are a lot of classic games with little to no mod support that are still remembered to this day.

 

Doom Eternal's gameplay being so unique and interesting ensures it has a good chance of it being played for a long time. Having mod support is just icing on the cake, longevity wise.

[GraphicBleeder]

7 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

But the  there are a lot of classic games with little to no mod support that are still remembered to this day.

ROM Hacking has been a thing since the 90s.

 

 

These classic games from the NES to N64 era have been modded before, and that gives them longevity.

[omx32x]

2 hours ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

People talk about mod support being important but legit, why? So that we can have one finished total conversion and a dozen and a half unfinished? Looking back in 20 years' time and thinking "Damn, I sure wish that total remake of [old game] as a Doom Eternal mod would get out of the alpha phase". Yes I'm sure that will boost the longevity of the game. 

What else increases the longevity? Multiplayer! So that in 10 years we can look back and say "Damn, I sure wish the servers for that game were still up, it was kinda fun but most of the games now have a similar experience anyway."

i still think mod support is important but i can see your point

mods like doom 3 phobos are the exeption really while doom 1 and 2 is very easy to mod and relatively low effort in most cases now modding something like doom eternal or hell even doom 3 is a hard task that only the best modders in the community can do

while we of course have a lot of small mods and conversions for doom 3 something like phobos is really rare to see and i belive it would be even rarer in eternal

though i still think its very important and every game should have mod support

[Duke of Pathoris]

18 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

i still think mod support is important but i can see your point

mods like doom 3 phobos are the exeption really while doom 1 and 2 is very easy to mod and relatively low effort in most cases now modding something like doom eternal or hell even doom 3 is a hard task that only the best modders in the community can do

while we of course have a lot of small mods and conversions for doom 3 something like phobos is really rare to see and i belive it would be even rarer in eternal

though i still think its very important and every game should have mod support

Doom modding is much easier and generally more successful than modding for later games. Even then, I would argue the most important bits are source ports. So many people, myself included, don't really play mods anymore but still enjoy revisiting the base game.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, GraphicBleeder said:

ROM Hacking has been a thing since the 90s.

 

These classic games from the NES to N64 era have been modded before, and that gives them longevity.

Not really, Most play these games because of the Base game not because of mods. 

When People play Mario Kart 64, they play MARIO KART 64 and not add any mods to it.

 

there are also older games Like Medal of Honor, Call of Duty 4, Demon's Souls that have almost No modding scene aside from, HD Texture packs and yet are still remembered and played.  so Its not a solid argument imo.

These games got longevity because they are great games, not because people made map packs for them. the ROM Hacks adds to longevity, but are not necessarily the cause of it.

 

 

[Duke of Pathoris]

Let's all be real, mods are a nice thing for fans. They may entice us who are replaying it to keep replaying it a bit longer but they're not what will draw people back to have another playthrough. 

[Super Mighty G]

Who's to say modding won't become a thing down the line? The game has only been out for a year.

[Duke of Pathoris]

1 hour ago, Super Mighty G said:

Who's to say modding won't become a thing down the line? The game has only been out for a year.

Everyone seems to be under the impression that all work on Doom has ceased. That there won't be any rebalancing, won't be any new features, etc etc. 

[Artman2004]

Let's not forget that classic Doom has its source code released, while DE's is still proprietary. The reason Doom has lived so long is that it had multiple source ports made for it, allowing it to be played on modern hardware. Most mods that you know wouldn't have been possible without source ports. The source code being released is the reason most of us aren't playing Doom on DOSbox or Bethesda's ports. If modern Doom wants to truly be eternal, it would probably need to have its source code released.

[GraphicBleeder]

16 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Not really, Most play these games because of the Base game not because of mods. 

When People play Mario Kart 64, they play MARIO KART 64 and not add any mods to it.

 

there are also older games Like Medal of Honor, Call of Duty 4, Demon's Souls that have almost No modding scene aside from, HD Texture packs and yet are still remembered and played.  so Its not a solid argument imo.

These games got longevity because they are great games, not because people made map packs for them. the ROM Hacks adds to longevity, but are not necessarily the cause of it.

 

 

Alright yeah fair.

[NoXion]

46 minutes ago, Artman2004 said:

Let's not forget that classic Doom has its source code released, while DE's is still proprietary. The reason Doom has lived so long is that it had multiple source ports made for it, allowing it to be played on modern hardware. Most mods that you know wouldn't have been possible without source ports. The source code being released is the reason most of us aren't playing Doom on DOSbox or Bethesda's ports. If modern Doom wants to truly be eternal, it would probably need to have its source code released.

Not sure that would be possible, IIRC Doom Eternal already uses proprietary components under licence, stuff like Bink video I think? Better support for the bits that Id actually wrote themselves is probably the best that can be hoped for.

[Cosmos Of Kings]

On 3/25/2021 at 2:03 PM, Stoltzmann said:

 

Hugo said in toyota stream that future master levels will have shitton of enemies, by the tone of his voice it seems like he has no better ideas and there is nothing left to do but just to throw a bunch of demons at the player.

 

Personally, I think fighting harder and faster but less demons is better than fighitng more standard and weak enemies, for example I think it is more fun and challenging to fight armored baron + possessed arachnotron than two normal barons and two normal arachnotrons. Also in my opinion only one heavy/super heavy demon with like 3 weak points would be better than 5 reskinned enemies we've got in TAG 2.

 

I didn't know Toyota Motor Corporation was involved with Doom. ;)

 

Now, I would add that the level's design makes a big impact on making the combat encounters fun. Stuffing lots of weak enemies in a small room changes the pace but isn't fun when done a lot, like much of the Super Gore Nest Master Level. Whereas placing a few but tough enemies in a multi-level space is good fun. Bouncing about in an arena with a Baron and Demon Hunter is more engaging than having to mow a linear Imp garden.

[whatup876]

Obviously, titles like Dark Souls will be remembered and played without mods but then there's always obscure titles that could be obscure, lost or potentially imcompatible with certain tech.

Online features and digital additions also apply, like Death Stranding's online stuff or the real ending of Asura's Wrath.

With the news of several PSN stories shutting down (for PS3, Vita and PSP), remakes can in fact replace the original if the only access to the original Demon Souls is a physicall PS3 console and game or outright emulation, while the PS5 remake is treated as the "main version".

Sony and Nintendo are both guilty of this.

[HOUSE]

If the official Horde mode or Invasion comes out well, wouldn't Doom Eternal be a game that can be played consistently even without a mode?

[Super Mighty G]

21 hours ago, Artman2004 said:

If modern Doom wants to truly be eternal, it would probably need to have its source code released.

Something like that just isn't feasible these days with all the moving parts that make up a game. It's another matter when the entire engine was programmed by one guy.

[Yurax]

On 3/26/2021 at 1:30 AM, jamondemarnatural said:

They are still played, even they classics ones, because how well crafted they are, and Doom Eternal shares as a one of the greatest hits in the Doom Saga. And the fanbase of Eternal (Not Counting old Doom) will make alive for the game like many fanbase do it. For now, i'm just celebrating this B-day while i'm downloading the game again.

 

Eternal is great, levels are playable again, but not forever. Even these masterpiece levels will become boring by time.

To make Eternal truly eternal, would be nice to take inspiration from one promising, but terribly failed game: Hellgate London.

At its time, it promises to be "endless" grinding 3D shooter with theme, surprisingly: to battle hell invasion. Milestones of campaign and some big battles was predefined and set, but between those, player can enter unlimited number of randomly generated arenas to loot (it implements Diablo system of random generated weapons, i didnt personally appreciate it). Seems good, didnt it? It was. With one big flaw: gunplay was extremely terrible, feels like using beach water pistol, shooting and movement was extremely unfriendly. Such haptics was terribly behind other shooters of that time. Bit bad for game, that should be built on shooting and moving.

But having this, with Eternal gameplay and existing arenas from levels somehow randomly, but meaningfully prepared for another raids, it would be something unexpected.

[Azuris]

3 hours ago, Yurax said:

 

Eternal is great, levels are playable again, but not forever. Even these masterpiece levels will become boring by time.

To make Eternal truly eternal, would be nice to take inspiration from one promising, but terribly failed game: Hellgate London.

At its time, it promises to be "endless" grinding 3D shooter with theme, surprisingly: to battle hell invasion. Milestones of campaign and some big battles was predefined and set, but between those, player can enter unlimited number of randomly generated arenas to loot (it implements Diablo system of random generated weapons, i didnt personally appreciate it). Seems good, didnt it? It was. With one big flaw: gunplay was extremely terrible, feels like using beach water pistol, shooting and movement was extremely unfriendly. Such haptics was terribly behind other shooters of that time. Bit bad for game, that should be built on shooting and moving.

But having this, with Eternal gameplay and existing arenas from levels somehow randomly, but meaningfully prepared for another raids, it would be something unexpected.

 

I would say, as it is with nearly everything, it will be a Mixture of everything that keeps a Game alive.

I mostly played only the Campaign of Doom 1 and 2 in my life and had only few Contact with Mods and Wads outside of this.
So it has to be fun and timeless Gameplay and also the ability to Mod helps.
 

I am often comparing Doom to Super Mario World, because both share many Deisgn Elements, be it that they are easy pick up to play, have Levels to explore and find Secrets and that they can be Difficult in the End (Bonus Levels in Mario World).
If you throw an Editor in, such Games get turbo boosted.
 

In the Video postet above Hugo Martin says that People feel exhausted in the first DLC, those are such my Words.
This is something Doom Eternal could suffer from, that People feel exhausted by playing it, at least with the DLCs.
I lost the will to play further because i felt exhausted with TAG 1 and i really don't have the Nerves to face another Demon that will Limit your Movement.
Spend 100 Hours in the Maingame by replaying the Campaign again and again (Multiplayer is Crap), but the DLCs killed it for me, at least for now.

[Duke of Pathoris]

On 3/27/2021 at 6:52 AM, Artman2004 said:

Let's not forget that classic Doom has its source code released, while DE's is still proprietary. The reason Doom has lived so long is that it had multiple source ports made for it, allowing it to be played on modern hardware. Most mods that you know wouldn't have been possible without source ports. The source code being released is the reason most of us aren't playing Doom on DOSbox or Bethesda's ports. If modern Doom wants to truly be eternal, it would probably need to have its source code released.

 

That's only because Doom was originally for DOS. It is very hard to see Windows 10 compatibility being broken, practically ever. We're still running 64 bit architecture and will for the foreseeable future. Even if we move to 128 bit, we will have emulators. We can be sure of it because that is the industry trend.

 

Sourceports helped original Doom survive because:

1. They gave it compatibility with modern systems
2. They removed limitations such as framerate, entity count, and resolution

These issues simply do not apply to Eternal. Think of Doom 3: it lives on well and there are practically no source ports for it. Sure the source is open but there are no massive ports. What applies to old school Doom does not apply to all Doom.

 

3 hours ago, Yurax said:

Eternal is great, levels are playable again, but not forever. Even these masterpiece levels will become boring by time.

Any game, no matter how much new content it receives will get boring. So that raises the question: what keeps a game alive? Surely it is not a lot of people constantly playing it day after day.

 

I would say it is kept alive by people returning to it every so often to play through the campaign and then put it away for a while. After all, is that not why we still play Doom 3 or HeXen II? It's not an endless stream of official and fan content that makes a game last, it's a solid and fun campaign that people return to when the mood hits them. 

 

 

[Quasar]

On 3/26/2021 at 3:38 PM, NoXion said:

Not sure that would be possible, IIRC Doom Eternal already uses proprietary components under licence, stuff like Bink video I think? Better support for the bits that Id actually wrote themselves is probably the best that can be hoped for.

Other closed source and NDA-subject components include Wwise sound system, Umbra visibility middleware, and RAD Games Oodle compression library.

[Gez]

17 hours ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

That's only because Doom was originally for DOS. It is very hard to see Windows 10 compatibility being broken, practically ever. We're still running 64 bit architecture and will for the foreseeable future. Even if we move to 128 bit, we will have emulators. We can be sure of it because that is the industry trend.

Even Windows 10 isn't compatible with Windows 10, what with every single of the (forced, automatic) updates breaking a lot of stuff. And why assume that we're gonna stay on Windows 10 forever? We didn't stay on Windows XP forever, nor on Windows Vista/7, nor on Windows 8...

We may stay at 64-bit architecture for a while, but that doesn't mean staying at the same architecture; what with RISC doing another comeback recently.

Vulkan is a lot less abstracted than OpenGL, so if there's another big paradigm shift in how best to optimize graphic rendering, with new hardware introducing new approaches, then Vulkan will become obsolete, too.

 

Computer science is a domain that is characterized by constant evolution and changes. It may slow down a bit, but I don't see it ever stabilizing.

 

And an emulator for a 2020 gaming PC is going to be a lot more complex to make than an emulator for a 1993 gaming PC.

[whatup876]

I think even 6th/early 2000's games can have some issues on W10 at times, so most things post 90's can be hard to work it, even if in rare occasions.

Another thing about preserving games is where you'd trust to keep/archive certain games, to avoid accidents and a mindset like "old and busted" or "it will prevent costumers from buying new thing".

Like the ultimate library of videogames.

 

Even if Eternal never gets more advanced modding, the classic Doom's, Quake (and maybe some others like Serious Sam) have mods replicating 2016 and Eternal, with some impressive results done in different mods, from different authors.

But i've yet to see something actually replicating the weak points properly, unless Quake's Slayer's Testament did it in an update and i missed it.

[Rytrik]

On 3/24/2021 at 1:46 PM, Azuris said:

I think the Decission to Release an Editor depends on how much Control the Developers/Publisher want over their Product.

Here it seems ID wants to decide what Players get and how to bind them (Skins etc.).

They even hindered you to play the Game in Singleplayer if you didn't wanted to instal Denuvo Anti Cheat.

 

 

Not everything is a conspiracy around 'id just wanting control'...

 

I've said this before on the forum: Marty has indicated that they are aware of people wanting mod tools and it is a consideration. A main reason why mod tools have not been released is because they were putting ALL of their resources towards the DLCs. Plus they've been working from home on less-than-stellar internet connections. DLCs took priority. Also, id doesn't want to release half-assed modding tools to the community. IF they are going to do it, they'll want to do it in a way that they can give it their stamp of approval. It's id. Can we expect anything less?

[Murdoch]

On 3/25/2021 at 3:27 AM, DooM Bear said:

Without proper modding tools released, I honestly don’t see many people playing it in 2 years (apart from new players that found it on sale) let alone 10-20.

 

Bingo. There is no chance whatsoever that Doom Eternal will have Classic Doom's longevity. It will be remembered as a historical footnote when the series is discussed but it will have no player base to speak of. Why would it? There is no reason to keep playing it. Unless id is like "OMG SURPRISE MOD TOOLS!" but even then, it's never going to beat Classic Doom's comparative simplicity of modding that has kept it so relevant for so long.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

Why would it? There is no reason to keep playing it. 

What about a great single player experience?

 

I mean the same can be said of a lot of classic games, No reason to play those other than the base game. yet they persist and are still very loved and relevant to general player base. Super Mario Bros. Medal of Honor, the older Call of Duties. (yes i know ROM hacking has been a thing, but rarely do people bust out their NES for  Mario custom level packs)

 

Modding isn't the end all be all of longevity.  Having a great singleplayer gameplay is really enough for a game to be remembered for a long time. Modding is simply an added bonus.

 

So no bingo for this one. but I'll guess We'll see in 5 years.

Edited March 29, 2021 by jazzmaster9

[Murdoch]

32 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

What about a great single player experience?

 

There will be a small number of people who revisit it out of nostalgia, yes. But for every person who goes back to replay an old game out of nostalgia (and I count myself in this number) there are many many more who have all but forgotten that game existed. And this will be the fate of Doom Eternal without modding tools. A game with active modding is always going to have more players actively engaged, a long time after release. Aside from Doom, Quake, Morrowind and Skyrim are good examples of games still very much alive thanks to modding. As for older games like Super Mario Brothers, I think nostalgia is a very very big component of why they are still actively played. It was a formative experience in the lives of many, as was Doom.

 

Will Doom Eternal have enough nostalgia power in the future? It will have some, but I remain unconvinced it will have the power of Doom, Quake, Morrowind or Skyrim thanks to their modding scenes, or Doom, Mario or Sonic due to being a formative experience (these are the first examples that come to mind as good examples, obviously there are others).

 

But hey, I have been wrong many times in my life and fully expect that track record to continue so who knows? :)

Edited March 29, 2021 by Murdoch

[Azuris]

1 hour ago, Rytrik said:

 

Not everything is a conspiracy around 'id just wanting control'...

 

I've said this before on the forum: Marty has indicated that they are aware of people wanting mod tools and it is a consideration. A main reason why mod tools have not been released is because they were putting ALL of their resources towards the DLCs. Plus they've been working from home on less-than-stellar internet connections. DLCs took priority. Also, id doesn't want to release half-assed modding tools to the community. IF they are going to do it, they'll want to do it in a way that they can give it their stamp of approval. It's id. Can we expect anything less?

 

After seeing a couple of Videos he seems pretty aware and honest about the Community.

My Thinkings aren't unchangeble, so i'll see :)

But for now, i have to shape my Opinion on what they deliver (until now, superior main game to love, creative but boring multiplayer, medicore dlcs).

Even if there a good Community Focused People in the Company, there are also other People that can enforce some Decisions as ID

is not independent (Bethesda, Microsoft).

 

 

11 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

 

There will be a small number of people who revisit it out of nostalgia,

 

Well, there is blind Nostalgia caused by "good old Times" and Nostalgia caused by something that is actually good.
A Game like Super Marios bros. was and still is good to play.

Ninja Turtles for the C64/NES was and is terrible.

 

I would say that Doom Eternal will survive alone for its gameplay.

If a Game stands out it will be replayed.

 

Take a Look at Doom 3, even if it has a bad Reputation by some People, its Mixture of Action and Horror with its Enemies is so popular that they resell it again and again.

(ok, doom 3 has mod support etc, but the Output is not as big as in Doom (2) or something like Morrowind).

 

But i will not disagree that Modding will push the Popularity even further :P

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

 

But for every person who goes back to replay an old game out of nostalgia (and I count myself in this number) there are many many more who have all but forgotten that game existed. And this will be the fate of Doom Eternal without modding tools.

With how unique Doom Eternal is compared to other first person shooters around this time period. I doubt that will be the case.

 

 

[Stoltzmann]

16 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

With how unique Doom Eternal is compared to other first person shooters around this time period. I doubt that will be the case.

 

 

 

yeah, eternal's gameplay itself has so much replayability, like, I am replaying cultist base master level for a milionth time and I am still having fun, that means it is a good game. No less important is the fact that there is no other game like eternal, every fps game now feels slow and boring, for real I relaunched Borderlands after eternal and felt like I was in a fucking wheelchair. 

 

We have very long base campaign, two DLCs both combined are as long as half of the base game, on top of that there will be more than ten official master levels so almost whole new game, invasion mode, the game also has multiplayer and even without mod support we have tons of mods already. That is shitton of content.

 

Eternal will live for years untill next Id game that will top DE :P