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a Dean of Doom series companion thread

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Another good one, I personally haven’t played HR2 in its entirety, but I don’t think it’s ugly necessarily.

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I never liked the Hell Revealed series, barring a map here and there. I'd say I like HR2 a bit more overall though so I don't totally agree with him here. At the same time though, I get why he feels the way he does, haha.

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I think they're both equally not good, but have 4 or 5 good maps each. Afterlife is the greatest for me.

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Nothing about HR or its sequel look appealing to me, but I can see some bright spots in the videos I've seen of them. I also don't think this WAD is that ugly. But there's a lot more stuff out there that is more fun. I appreciated the comments left on this video by some of the old crew explaining the hurdles it went though before release, so that was cool!

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Wow. When the biggest slaughtermap in the wad is the BEST level... yeah, I don't think I'm going to play this one, at least not on vanilla. Great episode, bad wad.

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5 hours ago, BCHQ said:

It's a pity we're unlikely to get a Sunder episode.

While I have a feeling we probably won't get one of those, I think if it ever gets 100% completed, the chances will go up for an ep. 

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The soundtrack is probably the only redeeming  feature. Play with a wad that doesn't replace the music, I guess, but you may find some of the ambient music particularly to be out of place.

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I think I might just personally rip the midis of HR2 for my own enjoyment than ever play it lmao. I've seen decino's playthru of HR2 and I gotta say it has to be one of grindiest wads I have ever seen.

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Came here to see if there was a lot of dissent to the newest video, since our boy torched the shit out of HR2.  Guess I can leave it at the bottom of my to play list though, haha.

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I disagree with Dean of Doom's latest video. Hell Revealed 2 is actually one of my favorite wads. Sure, the quality is inconsistent because it was made by multiple mappers, there are plenty of dickish traps, and there are certain parts that are definitely a pain in the ass (that archvile jump secret in MAP04 is an obvious one), but the spectacularly brutal slaughterfests of maps like "The Path II", "Resistance Remains", and "Playground" make up for it. I also don't think it looks ugly. Not entirely, anyway. Certain maps, especially those by Jonas Feragen, feature some amazing vanilla-compatible detailing.

 

10 hours ago, VoanHead said:

I think I might just personally rip the midis of HR2 for my own enjoyment than ever play it lmao. I've seen decino's playthru of HR2 and I gotta say it has to be one of grindiest wads I have ever seen.

 

Trust me, the first Hell Revealed is way grindier than the second.

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I never understood the hate for Hell Revealed 2; granted, I've never been that big on either of them, but I still find both of them fun to play on different occasions. I got halfway through HR2 on HMP before I was tired of dealing with the mobs of monsters, so I switched to the lowest setting by MAP16 and was able to have fun with the set as it is. I will say I think both HR & HR2 are especially great for co-op play.

 

27 minutes ago, E.M. said:

Certain maps, especially those by Jonas Feragen, feature some amazing vanilla-compatible detailing.

 

I do agree that Jonas Feragen's maps were some of the highlights for me, as I liked his quick explosive gameplay in the early maps as well as some of the cool tricks he pulled in vanilla Doom 2 - especially MAP19. There were highs and lows like any other megawad, and some maps did feel a little unpolished or not that interesting in layout - I'm thinking specifically of maps 6 and 11, but I never felt it was as bad as many seem to make it out to be.

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Personally, I think HR2 looks damn good for the most part, though that map with the huge blank grey wall and FWATER still looks pretty 1994, but it's the exception rather than the rule imo.

 

Also, for me having grown up on ZDaemon, Co-op is basically a completely separate design philosophy from SP if you want it to be as fun as it can. HR2 can be fun in co-op, especially with a mod of some sort that soups up the guns, though the cramped and weird bits still get to me.

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1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

Co-op is basically a completely separate design philosophy from SP if you want it to be as fun as it can

 

Could you elaborate on this? Seems fascinating. 

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I must admit that for the most part I agree with the review. I know that Hell Revealed hasn't aged well, however there are some very good maps buried within this, whose ideas have been replicated numerous times (Map22 and 24 for example). I don't really get that feeling from Hell revealed 2, yes there are some cool vanilla tricks but they don't tend to offer that much where it counts. Many of the maps are very grindy and making the wad more difficult only exacerbates this feeling. 

Comparing some of the maps where Hell Revealed maps are clearly used as inspiration.

Map09 - I must confess that I think the grade was harsh, sure Siege 2 is not a good map, but at least it fits the name unlike its predecessor and that gameplay is certainly different. I guess the biggest criticism is how lazy the execution of the idea was. I think Map24 and 28 are far worse maps.

Map13 - An example of where the map it homages (Dead Progressive - HR map25) is better. The HR map is fun and breezy, this is a slog.

Map15 - In fairness this is a significant improvement and is one the poster childs for HR2.

Map31 - I guess the post descent part is better, it still sucks though.

Map27 - Another example of where the HR original is better.

 

I think in the end, Alien Vendetta was released a year or so prior to this, and is quite simply a better product. 

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Just watched the HR2 episode, and I'm reassured to see he disliked it as much as I did. 

 

It was the megawad being played as part of the April 2020 Doomworld Megawad Club the one time I decided to try joining it, and what a rough experience that was.  I was so ready to enjoy it and write about it every day, and it just turned into a massively disappointing slog.  The maps were badly designed, the gameplay was either mean or grindy, and I realized after a while I just wasn't having any fun.  I think I lasted until Map 20 or so and then gave up.

 

Reassuring to see I didn't miss much after that!

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On 5/23/2021 at 2:16 PM, Doomkid said:

Personally, I think HR2 looks damn good for the most part, though that map with the huge blank grey wall and FWATER still looks pretty 1994, but it's the exception rather than the rule imo.

yeah, same here. while i can see why people would hate the gameplay (although i've never played it myself) it looks perfectly fine.

 

then again, our standards of "visually pleasing" are much, much lower than most people :p

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On lundi 24 mai 2021 at 12:14 AM, Doomkid said:

Well, for players of a greater skill than myself, that generalization may not be the case.. but to try and expand on the idea, slaughtermaps with huge arenas and numbers of enemies tend to be much more popular than "standard Doom maps" in the realm of cooperative/MP Doom in general. Without tooting my own horn, something like Ray Mohawk 1 is a fun little hour-long campaign with some genuine ebbs and flows when played in SP.. but when it comes to co-op, forget it - it's a 10 minute little pushover by comparison. Maybe still enjoyable for a very small crew of 2-3 people, but it's a cakewalk ultimately without the gameplay restrictions SP causes.

Well there's two massive differences between coop and SP. The first is that, unless playing survival or something, if you die in coop, you just respawn. The enemies don't, so eventually, victory is guaranteed.

The second is what is called the action economy in tabletop games.

Quote

Many people would define an economy as an exchange of money. That’s a misconception. The definition of an economy is a system of production, distribution, or consumption of limited goods and services by agents in a given geographical location. Let’s dissect this definition and apply it to [Doom].

  • The “system” in the action economy is combat [snip].
  • The “agents” who produce, distribute, or consume goods or services in the combat system are [players and monsters].  The geographical location is the [map].
  • The “limited goods” being produced, distributed, or consumed are actions in combat. (Services are not applicable in the action economy.) 

In short, we can define the action economy as the production, distribution, or consumption of actions in [Doom] combat by [players and monsters] on the [map]. A definition like that almost makes you forget that you’re playing a game, eh?

The rest of the aforelinked article is less relevant because it goes into illustrating the concept with game mechanics that are completely different from Doom's, but the basic principle remains. A map that is designed to be a fair challenge against the action output of a single player is going to be a lot less challenging against the action output of two players. Or three. Or four. Or sixteen. Simply put, more players means more shooting. If it takes one minute for a player to kill a boss monsters, it's gonna take 15 seconds for four players.

 

Now you could balance that by increasing the amount of monsters, but there's a problem with that, too: if the level isn't designed to let monsters efficiently threaten the players, more monsters mostly means more infighting, which ends up making the level easier instead of harder. Just taking E1M1 and copy-pasting all the monsters in it a few times is not going to be a good challenge for a coop team. While players are smart, monsters are stupid. Monsters cannot do things such as aiming elsewhere or moving if another monster is in their line of fire. Monsters also move slowly and don't fire as fast as they could while their have players in their line of sight (nightmare mode changes that a bit, but even then, they're still slower than players). Monsters also don't move to find a better angle if all their projectiles end up colliding with some geometry instead of hitting their target.

 

And it's not just shooting! With several players, you can cheese levels more easily, too. Take a basic arena trap. The player enters the arena, then after crossing an invisible line, the door closes, keeping the player stuck in the arena, while monsters spawn everywhere. Now make it multiplayer: one player enters the arena, while another stays in the doorway. The player crosses the line, then retreats through the door that the other player is keeping open. Now both players have partial cover to shoot at the monsters that are spawning in front of them.

 

So more players can do more things more quickly than a single player. If the level is actually easy, you risk getting in a situation where the fastest player basically clears the level on their own and the other players just follow around, getting bored. You need a very difficult map with a lot of monsters just to make sure every player can have fun blasting some monsters.

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I'm right there with MtPain when it comes to both HR megawads, and frankly I think they're some of the wads most undeserving of their "classic" status. They're just not fun to play, only remembered for how fucking difficult they are. I don't even think they look that amazing frankly.

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11 minutes ago, CasualScrub said:

I'm right there with MtPain when it comes to both HR megawads, and frankly I think they're some of the wads most undeserving of their "classic" status. They're just not fun to play, only remembered for how fucking difficult they are. I don't even think they look that amazing frankly.


The reason they are classic megawads is because of the influence the first one had on the mapping scene I believe.

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I was just playing through Alien Vendetta and thinking MtPain has a point with respect to Map 06. There are certainly some fun parts and aspects, but throwing masses of Hell Knights and Cybderdemons at you without giving you the supplies to make their killing efficient....is rather unpleasantly reminiscent of Hell Revealed...and I'm playing continuous.

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Posted (edited)

Dean of Doom's been a great way for me to be more thoughtful of the WADs I'm playing.

Edited by Goody : Wrong thread!

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I gotta say as someone who's a doom scrub (I usually play on HMP or HNTR if a wad is really hard) MTpain did a really good job selling Scythe 2 despite having no interest in Plutonia 2 and a lot of the other super hard wads he plays

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I've been eagerly waiting for this one all month. :)

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2 minutes ago, AnonKaiju said:

I gotta say as someone who's a doom scrub (I usually play on HMP or HNTR if a wad is really hard) MTpain did a really good job selling Scythe 2 despite having no interest in Plutonia 2 and a lot of the other super hard wads he plays

Me too, I suck at Doom yet Scythe 2 has been sold to me, not sure if I'll play it for that reason that I suck even if the hard ones are at the end

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