Opinions on super-long levels in megawads?

[Dwimepon]

I've been playing Eviternity and really enjoying it so far, but I reached MAP19 and man.... it's just way, WAYY too long for its own good. I feel like it would have been fantastic as an individual level, but as part of a whole it feels padded and stretched out to no end. Everything just starts to... blend in, if that makes sense.

 

I really wanted to know what people thought of MAP19, and generally of super long levels as part of megawads. Is there something I don't get, or...?

[Deadwing]

No problem for me, as long as every level is not like that.

I do prefer shorter levels in megawads though.

[Old-Doomguy]

My opinion is that long levels can be great but if it's a megawad there should be maps that don't drag out for too long. There really has to be a certain flow to it.

 

But yeah if it feels boring or tedious you can always just skip the map in question.

[Phobus]

Individual levels can be as long as they like, but the longer the map set is, the less I appreciate huge maps. The old-school 32-map megaWAD is no place for a humungous map, IMO.

[MFG38]

I second @Deadwing. The length of an individual map generally doesn't matter too much for me, but there is a point beyond which a map begins to outstay its welcome in relation to the other maps. And having played Eviternity, MAP19 definitely reached that point for me. That's not to speak ill of the map or its author, though - it's a cool map in its own right, but its sheer size did start to put me off after enough time spent wandering around in it.

[Arbys550]

I actually love map19 of Eviternity. A really long map in a megawad is a good way to shake things up in my opinion.

[Doom-X-Machina]

I have no issues with long, massive maps as long as it's contextual and engaging.

[continuum.mid]

What I didn't like about Dehydration is that I had no idea how far along I was, so eventually I was just waiting for the level to be over. If there was a clear sense of progression, I think I would be fine with it. An example of a longer level I was able to enjoy was Trinary Temple (map23 of Ancient Aliens). It's not ridiculously long (around 45 minutes) and feels like an actual adventure.

[Yugiboy85]

To me, it depends where it is placed in the megawad. If there is a long map at the end of an episode for example, I don't mind tbh. But, if it's like placed at random in the episode, then that's another story. 

In eviternity's case (since I've seen it brought up), I understand the issue with map 19. Don't get me wrong, it's a very competently made map that would be really good as a standalone or in a smaller mapset, or, at another spot in the megawad. BUT, I do feel that it is indeed way too long for it's own good and, especially afer an already longish map (that was awesome btw) that was map 18. Had the map been in the 20th spot however, I wouldn't have minded. 

[printz]

A long map means that if you play ironman/hardcore, the death will cost so much more of your time. But I guess that with a little discipline, you can define certain checkpoints and save there. 

 

Also, if it's vanilla-like, you'll hear the same music for a very long time (ports as simple as PrBoom+ offer music change triggers though).

 

It may also seem hard to navigate the automap of a huge level, but in practice you can add marks in it (using the 'm' key), so you can remember all the places you need to go to. In ports like Eternity which allow room over room, the automap is however MUCH less usable (we should find out how to improve it there)...

 

Personally I like huge levels because they're monumental.

[alLAN95th]

I don't mind long maps. I do feel longer maps should be designed with speedrunners in mind, though, at least to a certain extent. If you cannot find a quick route to exit your long level on your own and every route gets you lost or swarmed, then the chances of other people who are playing under normal conditions having trouble navigating your level could increase, for once they get lost and can only see corpses of dead enemies they've killed 30 or more minutes ago...  they'll likely quit the level and may never come back to it. So I think making the map navigational is a big deal, as well as ensuring there's not a lot of moments where the player is wandering around a large level with nothing to do.

Edited April 13, 2023 by alLAN95th

[omx32x]

anagnorisys and dehydration is some of the worst levels i ever played

sure they have good gimmicks and enemy placement and sure they look absolutely beautfull but man it wasnt worth the 3 hours i spend on each of them

they are the sole reason why i dont replay eviternity what is worse is that i loved imperator as a level and i want to play it again but if i do i also have to play anagnorisys

theres no escape from dehydration though...

[ognjen]

In my opinion, if you're planning to make a giant map it has to be memorable not for just how large it is. I think maps of that scale need a defining setpiece that is instantly recognizable, otherwise its just big fight after big fight and nothing really stands out due to the sheer size of the whole map. I can't really give any examples though sadly. 

[The_SloVinator]

Never liked a map that outstays its welcome, especially when switch hunts are present & traps repeat themselves over & over.

Over the years of Dooming, I've learned to accept many challenges, even slaughter sections but when a map drags for far too long, it drains my fuel very fast to even play the megawad any further.

 

Thus, I have one of those "Ugh. Just let this map end!" moments.

[Dwimepon]

1 minute ago, ognjen said:

In my opinion, if you're planning to make a giant map it has to be memorable not for just how large it is. I think maps of that scale need a defining setpiece that is instantly recognizable, otherwise its just big fight after big fight and nothing really stands out due to the sheer size of the whole map. I can't really give any examples though sadly. 

 

Not a Doom map, but Tears of the False God from Quake's Arcane Dimensions is a good example of that, I'd say. It's huge and open-ended, but it embraces it by turning the level into a kind of collect-a-thon that's simply fun to explore, with TONS of recognizable landmarks to get your bearings. I found nearly every nook and cranny in that level and I still think it's one of the best FPS levels I ever played, period.

[HavoX]

This will work AS LONG AS it's not the first few levels of said megawad.

[Marisa the Magician]

At this point I feel like that map's name is a joke on how long it is. Same thoughts on MAP32 too. It really does drag on far too long, and it's not helped by its accompanying track being way too short, repeating over and over.

 

I think the main problem with maps like these is the routing, and whether it is signalled well. It's easy to get lost if the complexity of the map itself reaches a certain point that you'd have to memorize too many paths. Recognizable landmarks can help, but those are more useful if it's a wide open space, rather than something more densely packed, and the former is hard to pull off effectively in the doom engine.

[yakfak]

I vibe with insanely long levels, whether they're casual, difficult, grindy, mazy or whatever. when a level hits you like a huge idea pad full of cool shit that's the best, really, especially when the textures vary from region to region. and if someone put out a set of 32 ginormous levels I wouldn't be the person responding to all that effort with "the pacing is wroooong" =P

[Biodegradable]

I definitely prefer being able to knock a map out in 10-20mins. If I've sunk a little over an hour into it, that's when I start to get anxious and begin to hope it'll end soon.

[ax34]

I prefer large maps to be separate wads.

[Mr. Freeze]

Long levels are like long songs: there better be some sense of progression or it gets boring very quickly. 

[continuum.mid]

Just now, Mr. Freeze said:

Long levels are like long songs: there better be some sense of progression or it gets boring very quickly. 

As someone who loves long songs (even 30-40 minute songs), I agree with this. If there's a sense of progression, I absolutely love it. If there isn't a sense of progression, I get bored. And sure, that might be the intent, but I still wouldn't want to listen to that song (or play that level).

[holaareola]

I prefer short maps on the whole, but there are countless exceptions. I disliked Map19 of Eviternity. It looked good, but I found the gameplay too dull to sustain even a quarter of the map's runtime.

 

Loved Map32 though. OP, if you thought Map19 was too big, oh boy, you will detest Map32. It's not a level, it's a whole world...

[seed]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Long levels are like long songs: there better be some sense of progression or it gets boring very quickly. 

 

Essentially.

 

It better do something fancy sooner rather than later, or I'm canning it, it usually is a good decision in those instances anyway.

[Dwimepon]

10 minutes ago, holaareola said:

I prefer short maps on the whole, but there are countless exceptions. I disliked Map19 of Eviternity. It looked good, but I found the gameplay too dull to sustain even a quarter of the map's runtime.

 

Loved Map32 though. OP, if you thought Map19 was too big, oh boy, you will detest Map32. It's not a level, it's a whole world...

 

Oh that sounds terrifying. I'll probably be a bit more charitable about it because it's a secret level, but sheesh.

 

I have a save on MAP31 and usually do the secret levels once I'm done with the main "meat" of the megawad, but if it's that huge and that long I might play those a little bit before the final stretch, to end on a high note.

[Final Verdict]

 

15-20 minutes feels long enough, after that it can become tedious.

 

However it depends on that map. If their is plenty of variety in gameplay and they change it up with architecture/textures/height then I can go for 30-45 minutes no problem.

 

Massive and/or intricate maps of 1 hour plus are better saved for standalone maps in my opinion, not mega-wads. But again, it depends. I have seen it pulled off successfully in a mega-wad but it's a rare event.

 

[roadworx]

ughhhhhh, i just got finished playing eviternity. i loved map19 at first, it was fun as hell, but my GOD it started to drag on lol. after the red key i had pretty much already had enough..but it kept going, and it kinda ruined it for me. the sense of progression is just shattered after going through the red gate 

[Zulk RS]

My humble opinion:

 

Long maps in megawads? They can work and can work well but 90% of the time, they tend to suck. Even well crafted maps tend to drain you if you're playing a megawad. This is coming from a guy who makes extra long and boring maps in his megawad. I am trying to be better about it.

[Bauul]

Expectation plays a huge part in it, I find. If you know you're going into a super long map, it feels far less burdensome than a map that just keeps going and going without you being ready for it.

 

It's one of the key differences between Map19 and Map32 in Eviternity I feel: Map32 you know is a big map right from the first five minutes because of how non-linear it is. Map19 feels like it could end at any minute, but instead goes on for 90 minutes+. 

 

Whenever I release maps for testing these days I always put an estimate for how long the map will take, as it can have a huge impact if a map out-stays its welcome.

 

I think that's why most people tend to prefer shorter maps: it's not because people want less gameplay, it's more that there's a better sense of progression and natural breaks are important. It's the same reason most books have chapters and most albums aren't just one long massive song.

[continuum.mid]

Just now, Bauul said:

Expectation plays a huge part in it, I find. If you know you're going into a super long map, it feels far less burdensome than a map that just keeps going and going without you being ready for it.

 

It's one of the key differences between Map19 and Map32 in Eviternity I feel: Map32 you know is a big map right from the first five minutes because of how non-linear it is. Map19 feels like it could end at any minute, but instead goes on for 90 minutes+. 

 

Whenever I release maps for testing these days I always put an estimate for how long the map will take, as it can have a huge impact if a map out-stays its welcome.

 

I think that's why most people tend to prefer shorter maps: it's not because people want less gameplay, it's more that there's a better sense of progression and natural breaks are important. It's the same reason most books have chapters and most albums aren't just one long massive song. 

Basically nailed it. After about 30 of the 90 minutes it took me to beat Dehydration, I was already expecting every door to have an exit switch behind it, and being sorely disappointed each time.

 

I've actually listened to albums that are one massive (40 minute) song, though, and the ones I listened to are actually good. Because, among many other reasons, you know going in that it is a massive song, there is an actual sense of progression, and usually they can be broken into distinct parts no longer than ten minutes. Same goes for any map longer than 20 minutes.