Gatekeeping

[Quasar]

This speaks for itself really.

 

[omx32x]

i dont think thats gate keeping after all hugo created the game of course he likes the marauder

it would be another thing if the fanbase itself said you need to like him to be a fan but from what i see its more of "hes not that bad" the "he is a perfect enemy"

for me the marauder just feels like the modern day arch vile a monster that a huge part of the fanbase dislike with some of the same complains "oh he is too op" "oh he forces you to fight him one way (hiding instead of dodging)"

[Quasar]

Myself, I like the game in spite of the Marauder. Not because I think he's too difficult, I got the hang of fighting them during the first week I had the game. No, more that they're just cheap in the way they're made challenging.

What we were promised: a "black belt" who has skills to equal the Slayer.

What we got: A thing that jumps around at random and has nigh-absolute invulnerability 99% of the time, regardless of how unjustified it is (ie, to the BFG which literally annihilates everything else) to compensate for a lack of diversity in its attacks and its mostly non-existent AI ("dodge in random directions constantly, occasionally run around like a chicken" sums up the routines at work).

 

When the Marauder was first revealed at the original E3 showing of the game, I imagined he was going to be a singular character that would reappear multiple times in mini-boss battles. Like a dark Doomguy whose demonic quest keeps crossing paths with your own business. Instead it's a bunch of mooks that you kill all the time. That alone made me dislike the entire concept's execution.

[omx32x]

2 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Myself, I like the game in spite of the Marauder. Not because I think he's too difficult, I got the hang of fighting them during the first week I had the game. No, more that they're just cheap in the way they're made challenging.

What we were promised: a "black belt" who has skills to equal the Slayer.

What we got: A thing that jumps around at random and has nigh-absolute invulnerability 99% of the time, regardless of how unjustified it is (ie, to the BFG which literally annihilates everything else) to compensate for a lack of diversity in its attacks and its mostly non-existent AI ("dodge in random directions constantly, occasionally run around like a chicken" sums up the routines at work).

 

When the Marauder was first revealed at the original E3 showing of the game, I imagined he was going to be a singular character that would reappear multiple times in mini-boss battles. Like a dark Doomguy whose demonic quest keeps crossing paths with your own business. Instead it's a bunch of mooks that you kill all the time. That alone made me dislike the entire concept's execution.

yea thats actually a complain from a lot of folks and i think he would be more accepted if he was a recurring mini boss but at the same time i just think about how many cyberdemons i killed in classic doom and now in eternal too even though if we go by wolf rpg there should be only one cyber demon and it has a story with the doom guy family (with is probaly the one we kill on tower of babel) so im not against the idea of them just being a recurring demon

though i reallly wanted more custcenes with them that voice is so badass

[Taurus Daggerknight]

...while I don't feel like it's gate-keeping either, that is a bit of an odd statement. I mean, while I don't -hate- the Marauder quite as much as the TAG 2 boss (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH), I don't think he's that particularly brilliant either, and would have preferred an actual  deathmatch style opponent.

[omx32x]

2 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

...while I don't feel like it's gate-keeping either, that is a bit of an odd statement. I mean, while I don't -hate- the Marauder quite as much as the TAG 2 boss (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH), I don't think he's that particularly brilliant either, and would have preferred an actual  deathmatch style opponent.

i mean he is the creator of the game it is a odd statement but its kinda like when a creator say one element of his game is loved by everyone when it is not the case

[Quasar]

3 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

...while I don't feel like it's gate-keeping either, that is a bit of an odd statement. I mean, while I don't -hate- the Marauder quite as much as the TAG 2 boss (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH), I don't think he's that particularly brilliant either, and would have preferred an actual  deathmatch style opponent.

Yeah. A statement like "All Doom fans like the Marauder" does make me understand why we got what we did for a final boss fight. Doesn't give me high hopes for the "red-light, green-light, haha I have an invulnerability powerup" enemy design getting replaced with anything better thought-out in the future.

[Taurus Daggerknight]

1 minute ago, omalefico32x said:

i mean he is the creator of the game it is a odd statement but its kinda like when a creator say one element of his game is loved by everyone when it is not the case

 

That's kind of the thing. I feel like between 2016 and Eternal, he and Stratton generally accepted criticism a little bit better, but recently (IE since Eternal's release), he's been a little too gung-ho on certain choices. I wont say that those choices are all the very worst things ever, but the suggestion that people who don't like X feature in  the game are "wrong" is a bit eyebrow raising. 

[omx32x]

15 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

 

That's kind of the thing. I feel like between 2016 and Eternal, he and Stratton generally accepted criticism a little bit better, but recently (IE since Eternal's release), he's been a little too gung-ho on certain choices. I wont say that those choices are all the very worst things ever, but the suggestion that people who don't like X feature in  the game are "wrong" is a bit eyebrow raising. 

well we have to see how he will handle critcism in the next games but for now i think its ok

i mean he already received a huge wave of backlash from dlc2 because of the difficult some design decisions and him messing with dlc1 like he said in toyota stream he felt like he was george lucas altering the star wars releases trying to make it better but pissing everyone off  in the process

i fell like a big ego is kinda of a curse of doom creators lol happened with both johns and is now happening with him

[D4NUK1]

 

[RookieSlayer]

Hugo mentioned in his streams that he likes souls games. I'm not a souls genre player but marauder seems like it fits that category. You have to wait for the opportunity to attack him. It's one on one combat. However marauder isn't engaging nor difficult to fight, just boring. It doesn't fit DOOM. He's an enemy that feels out of place. Gladiator was fine because it was just a boss fight. Marauder should have been a boss fight as well, give him more health and only have him show at the end of arc complex. Maybe change his attacking patterns as well. If the future of DOOM games is traffic light enemies, I don't want any part of it. I'm not sure how many people dislike the marauder but I have seen a lot of complaints about him online, and the fact Hugo is so adamant about keeping it in the game is concerning.

[omx32x]

4 minutes ago, RookieSlayer said:

Hugo mentioned in his streams that he likes souls games. I'm not a souls genre player but marauder seems like it fits that category. You have to wait for the opportunity to attack him. It's one on one combat. However marauder isn't engaging nor difficult to fight, just boring. It doesn't fit DOOM. He's an enemy that feels out of place. Gladiator was fine because it was just a boss fight. Marauder should have been a boss fight as well, give him more health and only have him show at the end of arc complex. Maybe change his attacking patterns as well. If the future of DOOM games is traffic light enemies, I don't want any part of it. I'm not sure how many people dislike the marauder but I have seen a lot of complaints about him online, and the fact Hugo is so adamant about keeping it in the game is concerning.

i dont think he will return because (thats huge speculation on my part) i dont think doom will have any more demonic enemies if they keep this continuit

all i see is humans and the maykrs and probaly another mythological special will also be added but now with demons super duper dead i dont see him returning but again thats a huge guess on my part

[Taurus Daggerknight]

11 minutes ago, RookieSlayer said:

Hugo mentioned in his streams that he likes souls games. I'm not a souls genre player but marauder seems like it fits that category. You have to wait for the opportunity to attack him. It's one on one combat. However marauder isn't engaging nor difficult to fight, just boring. It doesn't fit DOOM. He's an enemy that feels out of place. Gladiator was fine because it was just a boss fight. Marauder should have been a boss fight as well, give him more health and only have him show at the end of arc complex. Maybe change his attacking patterns as well. If the future of DOOM games is traffic light enemies, I don't want any part of it. I'm not sure how many people dislike the marauder but I have seen a lot of complaints about him online, and the fact Hugo is so adamant about keeping it in the game is concerning.

 

The determination to keep the Marauder in the game on its own would be fine. What I'm starting to object to is the idea that it's such a perfect idea that so absolutely synonymous with Doom that every other new enemy has to emulate it in terms of being a gimmick foe, or worse, in terms of the "He's only vulnerable for a split second, otherwise it sucks to be you". 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Marauder is at best a "curious" monster, not a master stroke in game design. 

[Taurus Daggerknight]

1 minute ago, omalefico32x said:

i dont think he will return because (thats huge speculation on my part) i dont think doom will have any more demonic enemies if they keep this continuit

all i see is humans and the maykrs and probaly another mythological special will also be added but now with demons super duper dead i dont see him returning but again thats a huge guess on my part

 

We've had Doom without demons before.

 

....it didn't go well. 

 

Even if Demons aren't the omnipresent enemy in every level, at the least they need to be the shadow in the background for it to be Doom. As I noted in a previous thread, I can possibly see something where you play a Sentinel fighting a rising dark lord in Argent D'nur trying to re-open the gates, but that's about it...

 

[Quasar]

Also, Doom without Hell will be a wet fart. It certainly won't hold my interest. I'd go play CoD if I want to be in a realistic war scenario, or I'd play Halo if I want to fight aliens. Doom is synonymous with demons. If what they've done with the Eternal story is an attempt to extricate Hell and other elements of the supernatural out of the Doom series, it's horribly misguided.

 

Remember how awesome the Doom movie that had no demons in it was??? Yeah let's do that with the games now!!!

[omx32x]

3 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Also, Doom without Hell will be a wet fart. It certainly won't hold my interest. I'd go play CoD if I want to be in a realistic war scenario, or I'd play Halo if I want to fight aliens. Doom is synonymous with demons. If what they've done with the Eternal story is an attempt to extricate Hell and other elements of the supernatural out of the Doom series, it's horribly misguided.

 

Remember how awesome the Doom movie that had no demons in it was??? Yeah let's do that with the games now!!!

i dont think that is fair

 the doom movie removed the supernatural for just sci fi but in doom eternal there are still the maykrs and they could still add another mythological creatures so i dont see how it would become just realistic war doom has always been a guy with a shotgun facing supernatural forces i dont see how removing hell would change that

[NoXion]

1 hour ago, Quasar said:

What we were promised: a "black belt" who has skills to equal the Slayer.

When were we ever promised that? I've always understood the "black belt" metaphor WRT the Marauder to mean that beating him means you've earned your black belt, not that the Marauder himself is a black belt on par with the Slayer.

[Quasar]

6 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

i dont think that is fair

 the doom movie removed the supernatural for just sci fi but in doom eternal there are still the maykrs and they could still add another mythological creatures so i dont see how it would become just realistic war doom has always been a guy with a shotgun facing supernatural forces i dont see how removing hell would change that

Guess we'll find out, if that's ever been the intent. I feel like people are too quick to jump to that conclusion because the end of TAG2 makes it feel like the threat has been ended forever. Maybe not, though. Even if the demons are restricted to Hell, a main theme of Doom games in the past has been humans opening the door to their dimension, either by accident or through their ability - still undiminished, most likely - to corrupt souls across the divide with their evil whisperings. Until it's destroyed to its very foundations, if that's even possible (I doubt it), Hell should remain as a threat IMO.

[omx32x]

Just now, Quasar said:

Guess we'll find out, if that's ever been the intent. I feel like people are too quick to jump to that conclusion because the end of TAG2 makes it feel like the threat has been ended forever. Maybe not, though. Even if the demons are restricted to Hell, a main theme of Doom games in the past has been humans opening the door to their dimension, either by accident or through their ability - still undiminished, most likely - to corrupt souls across the divide with their evil whisperings. Until it's destroyed to its very foundations, if that's even possible (I doubt it), Hell should remain as a threat IMO.

well that i agree with you but we have to wait and see

i didnt think a god of war without greek mythology would work but gow 2018 worked really well (at least in the narrative and lore i did not like the gameplay very much)

i think any change to a series can work if done well and it still has the same themes as the past games

[Taurus Daggerknight]

2 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Guess we'll find out, if that's ever been the intent. I feel like people are too quick to jump to that conclusion because the end of TAG2 makes it feel like the threat has been ended forever. Maybe not, though. Even if the demons are restricted to Hell, a main theme of Doom games in the past has been humans opening the door to their dimension, either by accident or through their ability - still undiminished, most likely - to corrupt souls across the divide with their evil whisperings. Until it's destroyed to its very foundations, if that's even possible (I doubt it), Hell should remain as a threat IMO.

 

This.

 

A running theme in almost all the Doom titles that deal with demons is the idea that the seals of Hell were broken before. Eternal's end mostly just says the door is locked for now, but it's concievable that  another universe's UAC kicks the door open again (by accident or on purpose), or that a cultist tries to do it. 

[Quasar]

Just now, Taurus Daggerknight said:

 

This.

 

A running theme in almost all the Doom titles that deal with demons is the idea that the seals of Hell were broken before. Eternal's end mostly just says the door is locked for now, but it's concievable that  another universe's UAC kicks the door open again (by accident or on purpose), or that a cultist tries to do it. 

Or, deprived of its ability to conquer worlds externally, Hell just turns to trying to draw in victims from outside. Found a couple of Hell cults, get them to teleport people into Hell en masse. Easy to think of such ideas that are different than "Hell invasion" again.

[whatup876]

The idea of creating more factions in Doom is weird, when Doom modders, for over 20+ years just assumed there's still much you can do with Hell and make it fit.

Specially if you see it as a versatile dimension of different elements and concepts, which may not be the case anymore because of current lore.

Even Doom 3 had designs that were weird for the sake of it.

After all, a portion of Doom's longevity and staying power came people having their own creative interpretations/expansions on it.

This is why i believe it's best to occasionally ignore lore and just do stuff that fits: even if a "reboot" or anything with different lore/gameplay/aesthetic has to be a spin-off.

If Doom's universe seems that limited, there may be some truth to it, but it also reveals a lack of creativity and commitment.

It can show that making story a bigger deal in Doom can be a liability to the series' premise/identity in another way that is "getting in the way a bit too much".

 

In my opinion on the Marauder, he's not that bad, even if he's not the "rival" character some people expected.

In some way, Marauders are like Zombiemen in classic Doom: former partners that you used to work with, now corrupted and even using a weapon or ability you also have. Difference being that they're tough and not the Goombas of Doom.

 

The Dark Lord being the "anti-you" also fell apart when his gameplay didn't really mimick the player (creating a bot copying the player would probably require specific mapsets and all) and how Doomguy's face looks now in general. (unlike Wolfenstein, i can excuse BJ being blond and based of that one Inglourious Basterds actor because the TNO series is a reboot, while reboot Doom wants to be a follow up after 1/2/64)

I always thought creating new enemy types in modern Doom had limits because of the "run and gun/Doom dance" and technical stuff like disappearing bodies.

The season pass year release didn't help either.

Part 2 showed this with recolored models and reused concepts, while the Cursed Prowler had an actual new ability that was just a bit too much in execution.

 

Spoiler

Speaking of gatekeeping, isn't that was id or ZeniMax are currently doing to Romero, which is why he can't release anymore classic Doom assets?

 

[xdarkmasterx]

I have nothing but respect for Newdoom team's game design ethos and ability, but I can't see the description of the marauder/new boss being "like another player" as anything but marketing bollocks, really.

 

How many human players have you fought, in any game, that just perfect block absolutely everything you do, until you figure out a flaw in their brain which forces them to use the one move during which they're vulnerable?

 

I probably don't have much of a right to talk since I haven't actually played the DLC yet >_> but seeing the ultimate battle in all of Doom come down to this weird gimmick is really baffling to me. Maybe they just didn't have enough time to bring something more original.

[omx32x]

1 minute ago, xdarkmasterx said:

I have nothing but respect for Newdoom team's game design ethos and ability, but I can't see the description of the marauder/new boss being "like another player" as anything but marketing bollocks, really.

 

How many players in games have you fought, in any game, that just perfect block absolutely everything you do, until you figure out a flaw in their brain which forces them to use the one move during which they're vulnerable?

 

I probably don't have much of a right to talk since I haven't actually played the DLC yet >_> but seeing the ultimate battle in all of Doom come down to this weird gimmick is really baffling to me. Maybe they just didn't have enough time to bring something more original.

on toyota stream hugo said they didnt have enough time to make something really creative so yea it was just marketing

i would like if he just like you had to go around chainsawing demons for ammo and stuff but i think covid kinda fucked them too so they probaly had less time and manpower in this dlc then with dlc1

[mrthejoshmon]

Is the Marauder just "The Chasm" again?

 

You know where everyone says it is shit but also everyone tells you how actually great it is when you say it is shit?

 

Yeah the Marauder is just "The Chasm" you can't change my mind.

[Stoltzmann]

2 hours ago, Quasar said:

What we got: A thing that jumps around at random and has nigh-absolute invulnerability 99% of the time

 

There is too many enemies that use his mechanic, marauder, bigger marauder (gladiator), the biggest marauder (dark lord), blood angel, turrets and armoured baron to some degree. Awful mechanic waiting for an enemy to attack then parry otherwise you can't do anything, I really really don't like doom slowly turning into sekiro or something.

 

I think marauder would much more fair and more like a PvP if his shield worked exactly like slayer's chaingun shield.

[xdarkmasterx]

I didn't mind the Gladiator at all, since you can dash behind him and hit him in the back without waiting for the parry. Makes it a lot more dynamic and fun to play than the other fights like this.

[Quasar]

3 minutes ago, xdarkmasterx said:

I didn't mind the Gladiator at all, since you can dash behind him and hit him in the back without waiting for the parry. Makes it a lot more dynamic and fun to play than the other fights like this.

It's also really easy to damage him with grenades or rockets fired behind. You can also do that to the Marauder, to a degree, though how fast he moves around makes it more difficult, and  the damage taken seems to get scaled down really far. It does falter him sometimes though, which is about the only reason the first Marauder encounter on SGN master level is even possible at all on classic mode - you gotta fire shotgun cluster bombs behind him to even get anywhere at all there.

[Hunting4r2d2]

I feel like this video needs a little context, as Hugo had said this just after finishing Urdak and Final Sin on nightmare late in the night. He was probably a little exhausted after that, and therefore I don't think we should take everything he said "word for word." I think what he was trying to say was that the marauder debate had already been settled, and you either like the marauder or you do not, there is no reason to further argue about it. Of course my interpretation could be wrong, but ehh, life is too short to assume the worst.

 

[jazzmaster9]

This seems less like gatekeeping and more just an out of context 30 second twitch clip.

 

Whether we like it or not, The marauder is part of the experience, its part of the Doom Eternal Dance, Like the Chasm for Doom 2, Like Habitat for TNT. That's what this clip sounded like to me. But again, no context so thats just guess work.