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QuaketallicA

Doom 64 Bethesda Port vs Doom 64 Retribution in GZDoom

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48 minutes ago, AlexMax said:

Just because somebody has to actually pay for it and it doesn't have 100% of the features of GZDoom doesn't mean it's a scam.

At least, not legally speaking. From a moral standpoint, one could genuinely make the case that having to pay for something that has not been legally available for over a decade is kind of shitty - especially when Doom 64 EX was made to be freeware. Just to be clear, though, I am not blaming Kaiser here so much as corporations and their abuse of copyright laws. As far as I am concerned, in a better world, Doom 64 should be public domain by now.

 

But since we do not live in a better world, supporting the official re-release is the next best thing.

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I'd say the best option would be to have Retribution use the official port's assets if hats possible, so you still have to buy the IWAD just like you do with all the other Doom games to play any iteration of Doom 64, but that'll piss off all the numerous freeloaders, even if Bethesda shakes the legal stick.

I have yet to play Retribution, as I have yet to get all the way through Doom 64 on steam or PS4 (I bought it twice to support Edward, Quasar and Kaiser, as little as it may actually get them, the moral is there), so I dont know HOW it feels yet, but its as close to GZDoom support we will have for a long time, and has a whole range of extra content, notably, the ability to entirely replace the Absolution TC, which is deprecated. I'm just waiting for those new items and monsters to be properly added, then I'll have a modern version of that old 'cacoward' winner to experience.

 

For 'free' Doom 64, I think its best if people play Doom 64 in Doom 2, so they get an idea of the levels, but still need to not be cheapskates and get a legal copy like the other Dooms if they want to experience all the unique stuff. Retribution isnt Freedoom 64 afterall.

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2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Doom 64 EX was made to be freeware.

Doom 64 EX never distributed the game. To use it legally, you had to have a cartridge dumper and dump your own Doom 64 cartridge first. We all know that most people just went to download a ROM dump from the internet anyway and performed copyright infringement on their own.

 

Widespread copyright infringement never made Doom 64 itself "free" -- any more than Super Mario Bros. is a "free" game through infringement.

 

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

As far as I am concerned, in a better world, Doom 64 should be public domain by now.

 

I would actually be in support of this, if only to restore the original Copyright Act of 1790 with a 14-year term (and an optional 14-year extension). Not being actively on sale doesn't change its legal status, however.

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2 hours ago, chungy said:

Doom 64 EX never distributed the game. To use it legally, you had to have a cartridge dumper and dump your own Doom 64 cartridge first. We all know that most people just went to download a ROM dump from the internet anyway and performed copyright infringement on their own.

 

Widespread copyright infringement never made Doom 64 itself "free" -- any more than Super Mario Bros. is a "free" game through infringement.

 

I would actually be in support of this, if only to restore the original Copyright Act of 1790 with a 14-year term (and an optional 14-year extension). Not being actively on sale doesn't change its legal status, however.

Yes, I get the legal ramifications; that is why I said I approve of Doom 64's re-release from a legal standpoint. And I suspect that Doom 64 EX requiring the Doom 64 ROM was merely a way for Kaiser to avoid legal trouble; after all, Doom 64 TC was his first attempt at bringing Doom 64 to the PC.

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10 hours ago, Rudolph said:

But since we do not live in a better world, supporting the official re-release is the next best thing.

 

Not only that, one fact that I don't often see mentioned is that the re-release comes with a WAD file, which means that the re-release is now the first legal way of getting access to Doom 64's data short of dumping the original N64 cart yourself.

 

If someone wanted to make a modded version of Doom 64 - why not use that as a base?

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3 hours ago, AlexMax said:

If someone wanted to make a modded version of Doom 64 - why not use that as a base?

Heck, there's little reason GZDoom couldn't support a Doom 64 mode with autodetection of the Steam path to the IWAD. All it takes is one person to make it :P

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11 minutes ago, chungy said:

Heck, there's little reason GZDoom couldn't support a Doom 64 mode with autodetection of the Steam path to the IWAD. All it takes is one person to make it :P

Its lack of any ability to load it currently would be the main problem with that. It can't load any of the levels, the music (while MIDI you need to also load its unique soundfont), and the palette loading for the sprites is a bit weird as well as each sprite defines its own that can also be replaced at runtime. There isn't even a global palette anymore either.

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46 minutes ago, chungy said:

Heck, there's little reason GZDoom couldn't support a Doom 64 mode with autodetection of the Steam path to the IWAD. All it takes is one person to make it :P

Doom 64 is a very different game from PC Doom, with different map format, different sky system, different texturing system, different actor behavior (including different tic rate), different palette system, different scripting system (macros), etc. Nothing insurmountable but it's a whole lot more work than just adding another Steam path to the autodetection code.

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Here's my take: Both are good and both serve their own individual purposes

 

D64R is fantastic for its nice QOL improvements like the updated weapon animations and dynamic lighting. Not to mention that it includes 3 community episodes (Absolution Levels, Outcast Levels, and Retribution Denied). Only issue I have with D64R is its lack of gradient lighting, but a project called Doom 64 CE adds it back.

 

The official port is a good and viable choice for accuracy. The N64 style 3-point filtering, demo compatibility, rumble, as well as the addition of the Lost Levels. It's also compatible with Doom 64 EX mods like Beta 64 IIRC. Main issue is that mouse input feels sluggish and sticky. It fine on Switch with gyro aiming though.

 

Overall, it depends on who you are and what you want. For me I use D64R to play it on PC (unless it's a mod for Doom 64 EX) due to its nice features and the fact it runs in GZDoom but I use the official port if I want to play on Switch. And let's not kid ourselves, the rerelease is like like $5 (or ~$7.50 in Australia) so there's really no point into not buying it, even if you're not going to play it and just stick to something like D64R. =P

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I got the re-release off Steam but I had to stop playing it about 30 mins in as I was getting killer motion sickness, probably from the weapon away. That's never happened to me before but I saw no way to change it, so just went back to one of the ZDoom ports. 

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Wonder how nobody mentions GEC-GZDoom Master Edition or DZDoom.

Its also a good way to play the PSX Doom and Doom 64, probably not as good as the real deal on the re-release, but its really close to it.

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If it's for using the official game, of course I'd take the re-release but, for accesibility, I'd take Retribution or another recreation of Doom 64. 

Right now, it's accessibility for what I have at the moment.

 

PS: support the re-release and the other free recreations that the involved people made with dedication. Comparing them is a waste of time and should be enjoyed in its own way.

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On 4/5/2021 at 11:38 AM, P41R47 said:

Wonder how nobody mentions GEC-GZDoom Master Edition or DZDoom.

Well, in my case, it is because I did not know about them to begin with... :P

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On 4/5/2021 at 5:38 PM, P41R47 said:

Wonder how nobody mentions GEC-GZDoom Master Edition or DZDoom.

Because it is yet to be renamed as such. DZDoom makes it clear it's a port, Master Edition makes it sound like homebrew like Doom 64: Merciless Edition.

 

Fwiw DZDoom was moving to a new base and that's why it was not renamed yet.

 

Which is a shame. Id love a official DZDoom build.

On 4/5/2021 at 5:38 PM, P41R47 said:

 

 

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I played Retribution to death and a bit of the newer Bethesda release as well.

 

I didn't feel like the two versions are noticeable different in feel/gameplay. There are some differences however. The ones i didn't like was the different filtering and some differences in lighting in some areas. The filtering isn't a huge issue. The lighting can change the mood however. The one area i remember on top of my head was one of the secret weapon upgrades/keys. In Doom 64 there was this cool flickering light on the key while in Retribution it was a static light.

 

I don't remember many instances like this or maybe i didn't notice them. But i remember this particular one. Also, this was a few years ago, not sure if it has been updated/fixed.

 

Retribution has one HUGE plus, however... The new reload animations for the shotguns. This was the only thing i absolutely hated about DOOM 64 (lack of reload animations) and Retribution fixes it. I don't care if it's not accurate, it's just miles better.

 

The new Bethesda release isn't 100% accurate though. They changed the red crosses on the stimpacks and medikits. They are now gray and look weird. It is fixable however as you can replace the texture (i did) so it's not a big deal.

 

Overall, i'd say Retribution is the way to go IMO just for the reload animations alone. You are going to be using these weapons all the time and they are in front of your face. They might as well not look like the boring original static boomsticks.

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1 hour ago, TasAcri said:

They are now gray and look weird.

They're blue. You know, the same colour that the health pickups are currently in 2016 and Eternal.

Edited by Edward850

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5 hours ago, TasAcri said:

The new Bethesda release isn't 100% accurate though. They changed the red crosses on the stimpacks and medikits.

It's merely to comply with Red Cross guidelines, just as Classic Doom has been altered in a minor way in the same manner. I don't feel like it's a big deal.

 

High resolution and 16:9 support are probably bigger "issues" if one is expecting an exact representation of the game as it was on the Nintendo 64. If you want to go that far, may as well get a Nintendo 64 and the original cartridge. :p

 

I think provable demo compatibility is sufficient to show that the game is faithful to the original release, albeit with modern graphical and input enhancements.

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Both are good in their own way. But I prefer Doom 64R because you can play the original Doom 64 with GZDoom features (texture automap, crosshair, freelook). It's not only that, it also has more episodes so you can have more fun with playing Doom 64 and it fixes the reloads of the both shotgun are much better. I also like that part of the showcase room where you can make a deathmatch between demons

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2 hours ago, Teo Slayer said:

and it fixes the reloads of the both shotgun are much better.

Fixes the reloads? Were they broken? I've never stopped being able to fire them personally. I mean sure they don't animate much like in Quake (which nobody seems to complain about, so why Doom64), but that ain't broken. 🤔

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31 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Fixes the reloads? Were they broken? I've never stopped being able to fire them personally. I mean sure they don't animate much like in Quake (which nobody seems to complain about, so why Doom64), but that ain't broken. 🤔

don't bother with it, Ed.

people is soo much used to the old reload animation of the original game that, having one different, just make them prefer something that is a somewhat of a replica over the real thing.

Not accurracy with just fancy eyecandy winning over a port of the original is something simply i can't understand...

 

...But well, 1000 people, 1000 different tastes.

c'est la vie!

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19 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Fixes the reloads? Were they broken? I've never stopped being able to fire them personally. I mean sure they don't animate much like in Quake (which nobody seems to complain about, so why Doom64), but that ain't broken. 🤔

Not broken, just absent, which is as bad IMO. DOOM shotgun animations were iconic. There was no reason to remove them other than making the game look more similar to Quake than DOOM, probably because Quake was the more modern game. And yes, i complained about the weapons in Quake as well. Its a great game but come on, the weapons look bad. I'm only talking about the looks, not their functionality btw.

This also had nothing to do with cart size like many seem to think, we are talking about what, 3-4 frames for each weapon? I think that's a two digit in KBs. It's not like monsters that need several frames for several different view angles and several states.

 

I remember renting the game back in the day and not liking this at all. So much so that i didn't buy the game for that reason, even though i enjoyed the rest of the game. I respect the accuracy of the re-release and i would prefer it over Retribution in a heartbeat if i could add the reload animations, just like the medikits fix. It could also be an optional thing in the settings perhaps.

 

As for the accuracy, i haven't found an article or post that compares the two and points out the differences in actual gameplay. Like how Civvie would demonstrate the inaccurate behavior in a certain Blood port were enemies would do different things or the weapons behaving wrong. Personally, i only noticed some differences in the lighting in some areas like i mentioned already and the filtering thing that everyone else mentions. I wish there were some practical gameplay examples so i can see what's so wrong with Retribution myself.

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8 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

As for the accuracy, i haven't found an article or post that compares the two and points out the differences in actual gameplay. Like how Civvie would demonstrate the inaccurate behavior in a certain Blood port were enemies would do different things or the weapons behaving wrong. Personally, i only noticed some differences in the lighting in some areas like i mentioned already and the filtering thing that everyone else mentions. I wish there were some practical gameplay examples so i can see what's so wrong with Retribution myself.

Probably you don't know it as you are new around here.

But Ed is one of the developers of Nightdive, the team behind the Doom 64 port we have.

 

He and other members of this forum know more than anyone how inaccurrate it is.

Probably more on technical side than anything.

But thats mainly a problem of GZDoom as it is an inacurrate presentation of the original game, technically wise.

And no matter how similar it looks, what you see on Retribution, is something that is similar, not the same at all.

 

Please don't missunderstand what i'm saying.

You are free to like whatever you want.

But talking about how things should be just because you like them that way its not the same as making a faithful port of the original game.
And faithfulness wise, Retributions is not.

 

About the frames, well i'm not tech-savy on cart limitation or engine limitations.
But i do know that a few frames do have impact on a limited space.

Anyway, beside of that, the absent frames are a minor thing compared to what Doom 64 as a whole is.

And having a proper way to play it again just like it was but on a modern computer, that is something that we should be grateful of.

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2 hours ago, TasAcri said:

This also had nothing to do with cart size like many seem to think, we are talking about what, 3-4 frames for each weapon? I think that's a two digit in KBs. It's not like monsters that need several frames for several different view angles and several states. 

It actually had everything to do with cartridge space, it was full up. And when you're dealing with just 8MB, KBs are extremely countable.

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2 hours ago, Edward850 said:

It actually had everything to do with cartridge space, it was full up. And when you're dealing with just 8MB, KBs are extremely countable.

Hey, i couldn't know 100% for sure myself, it just seems that way to me, based on my logic. If you do know it was for that reason then i have no reason to doubt you. You probably know more than me or any other here.

 

It's just that, IMO, they sacrificed a big part of the game's charm just to save what, a dozen of KBs? When they could just sacrifice a texture or two for the same gain and nobody would notice. But that's just my view. To me if looks more like a deliberate artistic choice that had to do with how DOOM was considered obsolete when Doom 64 was released while Quake was all the rage. And without the animations it looks closer to Quake, which makes more sense to me as a reason to remove them. But again, if you confirm it was about space and the animations were the least important thing for the devs, so they got cut, then case closed.

Edited by TasAcri

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Hell I'm the TC author and I can already tell you it's pretty inaccurate technically. A lot of what I did was hacky and faked to look like the real thing. The biggest one is the lighting which is all wrong (but similar in color tones only). Another big one is ticrate. Although having it be wrong was something of a happy accident because now I actually like that the TC operates at PC Doom ticrate. Sort of brings Doom 64 to PC Doom speeds.

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2 hours ago, TasAcri said:

It's just that, IMO, they sacrificed a big part of the game's charm just to save what, a dozen of KBs? When they could just sacrifice a texture or two for the same gain and nobody would notice. But that's just my view. To me if looks more like a deliberate artistic choice that had to do with how DOOM was considered obsolete when Doom 64 was released while Quake was all the rage. And without the animations it looks closer to Quake, which makes more sense to me as a reason to remove them. But again, if you confirm it was about space and the animations were the least important thing for the devs, so they got cut, then case closed.

They already did sacrifice the textures. Most of the textures are half or even a quarter of their actual intended use, and rely on UV mirroring flags to cover the surface.

Take for example this door in MAP01:

image.png.0251f5f3623849c1cf37f8bad819b4ac.png

 

As you can see in the linedef properties, that texture is only one simple corner of the entire apparent surface. The door is 128x128, but the texture is 64x64. All the textures are, if not smaller. The door then uses UV mirroring flags to fill in the rest.
image.png.af1446ef2bed435ae9ddec3220642c20.png

 

They did all this, improved the compression format used in the WAD, and still had to cut enemies and cut frames where possible. Remember Ultimate Doom's IWAD alone is already 12MB, they had 8MB and need to share it with the music soundfont and the executable binary. It's not a lot of room.

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When i said "sacrifice a couple of textures" i didn't mean reduce their quality. I meant remove them completely. The reload animations could as well be compressed and lower quality as well as everything else.

 

I'm aware about how N64 games are all compressed like canned sardines. But if we assume they reached the point where they needed a few KBs more, they could just remove a couple of textures and keep the reload animations. The animations seem like something that's pretty high priority, considering how often you see them and how they completely change the look of the game while you are using those two weapons. So i'm pretty sure if they wanted them in, they would keep them and just delete a couple of textures.

 

The game already has a pretty huge quantity of textures so to cover the small space they needed for the reload animations (that's about 3-4 frames each) it would take what, 2, 3 textures? Nobody would notice a few walls having textures that were repeated a little bit more. But the reload animations though? That's in front of your face. And they are pretty iconic. I'm sure everyone would notice, i know i did.

 

As for the cut enemies, that's different because these use a lot of animation frames. Many many more than the few frames the shotguns use.  But you know that already. So cutting a n enemy seems like a good gain, but the reloads? That's too little gain.

 

So, since there is no confirmation from the OG devs (AFAIK), i still believe they didn't do it to save space (because they could cut something else, less important IMO) but because they probably didn't want it to be too similar to the good old, "obsolete" Doom in 1997. That also kinda explains all the monster redesigns as well. I feel like they wanted it to look like a different game and those reload animations were too "Doom like".

Edited by TasAcri

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1 hour ago, TasAcri said:

So, since there is no confirmation from the OG devs (AFAIK), i still believe they didn't do it to save space (because they could cut something else, less important IMO) but because they probably didn't want it to be too similar to the good old, "obsolete" Doom in 1997. That also kinda explains all the monster redesigns as well. I feel like they wanted it to look like a different game and those reload animations were too "Doom like".

This is the silliest conclusion I have ever read.

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