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QuaketallicA

Doom 64 Bethesda Port vs Doom 64 Retribution in GZDoom

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, AlexMax said:

Just because somebody has to actually pay for it and it doesn't have 100% of the features of GZDoom doesn't mean it's a scam.

At least, not legally speaking. From a moral standpoint, one could genuinely make the case that having to pay for something that has not been legally available for over a decade is kind of shitty - especially when Doom 64 EX was made to be freeware. Just to be clear, though, I am not blaming Kaiser here so much as corporations and their abuse of copyright laws. As far as I am concerned, in a better world, Doom 64 should be public domain by now.

 

But since we do not live in a better world, supporting the official re-release is the next best thing.

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I'd say the best option would be to have Retribution use the official port's assets if hats possible, so you still have to buy the IWAD just like you do with all the other Doom games to play any iteration of Doom 64, but that'll piss off all the numerous freeloaders, even if Bethesda shakes the legal stick.

I have yet to play Retribution, as I have yet to get all the way through Doom 64 on steam or PS4 (I bought it twice to support Edward, Quasar and Kaiser, as little as it may actually get them, the moral is there), so I dont know HOW it feels yet, but its as close to GZDoom support we will have for a long time, and has a whole range of extra content, notably, the ability to entirely replace the Absolution TC, which is deprecated. I'm just waiting for those new items and monsters to be properly added, then I'll have a modern version of that old 'cacoward' winner to experience.

 

For 'free' Doom 64, I think its best if people play Doom 64 in Doom 2, so they get an idea of the levels, but still need to not be cheapskates and get a legal copy like the other Dooms if they want to experience all the unique stuff. Retribution isnt Freedoom 64 afterall.

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2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Doom 64 EX was made to be freeware.

Doom 64 EX never distributed the game. To use it legally, you had to have a cartridge dumper and dump your own Doom 64 cartridge first. We all know that most people just went to download a ROM dump from the internet anyway and performed copyright infringement on their own.

 

Widespread copyright infringement never made Doom 64 itself "free" -- any more than Super Mario Bros. is a "free" game through infringement.

 

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

As far as I am concerned, in a better world, Doom 64 should be public domain by now.

 

I would actually be in support of this, if only to restore the original Copyright Act of 1790 with a 14-year term (and an optional 14-year extension). Not being actively on sale doesn't change its legal status, however.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, chungy said:

Doom 64 EX never distributed the game. To use it legally, you had to have a cartridge dumper and dump your own Doom 64 cartridge first. We all know that most people just went to download a ROM dump from the internet anyway and performed copyright infringement on their own.

 

Widespread copyright infringement never made Doom 64 itself "free" -- any more than Super Mario Bros. is a "free" game through infringement.

 

I would actually be in support of this, if only to restore the original Copyright Act of 1790 with a 14-year term (and an optional 14-year extension). Not being actively on sale doesn't change its legal status, however.

Yes, I get the legal ramifications; that is why I said I approve of Doom 64's re-release from a legal standpoint. And I suspect that Doom 64 EX requiring the Doom 64 ROM was merely a way for Kaiser to avoid legal trouble; after all, Doom 64 TC was his first attempt at bringing Doom 64 to the PC.

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10 hours ago, Rudolph said:

But since we do not live in a better world, supporting the official re-release is the next best thing.

 

Not only that, one fact that I don't often see mentioned is that the re-release comes with a WAD file, which means that the re-release is now the first legal way of getting access to Doom 64's data short of dumping the original N64 cart yourself.

 

If someone wanted to make a modded version of Doom 64 - why not use that as a base?

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3 hours ago, AlexMax said:

If someone wanted to make a modded version of Doom 64 - why not use that as a base?

Heck, there's little reason GZDoom couldn't support a Doom 64 mode with autodetection of the Steam path to the IWAD. All it takes is one person to make it :P

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, chungy said:

Heck, there's little reason GZDoom couldn't support a Doom 64 mode with autodetection of the Steam path to the IWAD. All it takes is one person to make it :P

Its lack of any ability to load it currently would be the main problem with that. It can't load any of the levels, the music (while MIDI you need to also load its unique soundfont), and the palette loading for the sprites is a bit weird as well as each sprite defines its own that can also be replaced at runtime. There isn't even a global palette anymore either.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, chungy said:

Heck, there's little reason GZDoom couldn't support a Doom 64 mode with autodetection of the Steam path to the IWAD. All it takes is one person to make it :P

Doom 64 is a very different game from PC Doom, with different map format, different sky system, different texturing system, different actor behavior (including different tic rate), different palette system, different scripting system (macros), etc. Nothing insurmountable but it's a whole lot more work than just adding another Steam path to the autodetection code.

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Posted (edited)

Here's my take: Both are good and both serve their own individual purposes

 

D64R is fantastic for its nice QOL improvements like the updated weapon animations and dynamic lighting. Not to mention that it includes 3 community episodes (Absolution Levels, Outcast Levels, and Retribution Denied). Only issue I have with D64R is its lack of gradient lighting, but a project called Doom 64 CE adds it back.

 

The official port is a good and viable choice for accuracy. The N64 style 3-point filtering, demo compatibility, rumble, as well as the addition of the Lost Levels. It's also compatible with Doom 64 EX mods like Beta 64 IIRC. Main issue is that mouse input feels sluggish and sticky. It fine on Switch with gyro aiming though.

 

Overall, it depends on who you are and what you want. For me I use D64R to play it on PC (unless it's a mod for Doom 64 EX) due to its nice features and the fact it runs in GZDoom but I use the official port if I want to play on Switch. And let's not kid ourselves, the rerelease is like like $5 (or ~$7.50 in Australia) so there's really no point into not buying it, even if you're not going to play it and just stick to something like D64R. =P

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I got the re-release off Steam but I had to stop playing it about 30 mins in as I was getting killer motion sickness, probably from the weapon away. That's never happened to me before but I saw no way to change it, so just went back to one of the ZDoom ports. 

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Wonder how nobody mentions GEC-GZDoom Master Edition or DZDoom.

Its also a good way to play the PSX Doom and Doom 64, probably not as good as the real deal on the re-release, but its really close to it.

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If it's for using the official game, of course I'd take the re-release but, for accesibility, I'd take Retribution or another recreation of Doom 64. 

Right now, it's accessibility for what I have at the moment.

 

PS: support the re-release and the other free recreations that the involved people made with dedication. Comparing them is a waste of time and should be enjoyed in its own way.

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On 4/5/2021 at 11:38 AM, P41R47 said:

Wonder how nobody mentions GEC-GZDoom Master Edition or DZDoom.

Well, in my case, it is because I did not know about them to begin with... :P

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On 4/5/2021 at 5:38 PM, P41R47 said:

Wonder how nobody mentions GEC-GZDoom Master Edition or DZDoom.

Because it is yet to be renamed as such. DZDoom makes it clear it's a port, Master Edition makes it sound like homebrew like Doom 64: Merciless Edition.

 

Fwiw DZDoom was moving to a new base and that's why it was not renamed yet.

 

Which is a shame. Id love a official DZDoom build.

On 4/5/2021 at 5:38 PM, P41R47 said:

 

 

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