Infighting.

[Doom-X-Machina]

What's your take on it?

I love it and was very disappointed when the 'nu Dooms' didn't implement it. I always look for infighting potential in every large or arena encounter I step into, hoping to drag lower tier enemies into firelines of higher tier monsters behind and let them sort each other out. I tend to play with a cautious playstyle, using as little ammo as necessary and trying to be as efficient and effective as I can so I like to take as much advantage of monster infighting as I can. It's fun as hell to watch too, especially when something low tier fells something big...

Discuss.

[MFG38]

I like to use infighting to my advantage whenever possible, especially in big arena-style combat scenarios.

[Biodegradable]

It's very useful during heavy combat encounters.

[Rudolph]

This reminds me: did Id Software developers ever explain how this feature came to be? Was it a freak accident or was it always intended to be?

[ax34]

I almost don't shoot monsters - they shoot each other for me.

And in Quake infighting is even better.

[Jacek Bourne]

It is essential to many slaughtermaps and I enjoy it a great deal.

[Final Verdict]

Infighting for me was one of the hallmarks for the original Doom games.

 

When I was a kid I found it hilarious, but after that I discovered it could be used tactically. It was a great feature. It's why I don't hate Pain Elementals like most people, they're great for starting a royal rumble with the crowd. Even after all these years I still get a kick out of seeing a free-for-all infight play out.

[Maes]

Is it really not implemented -as in, monsters don't retaliate at all even to repeated friendly fire, or they  have a quite high threshold for doing so -aka not just one stray hit? They might even actively try avoiding starting friendly fire unless they have a clear LOS/shot at the player, as is often the case in other shooters.

 

Also, not retaliating to friendly fire, even in games that don't have an infighting mechanic, does not automatically mean that no damage has been dealt, so it might still be exploitable. What's the case in the nuDooms?

[pcorf]

Infighting is certainly one of the best features of the original Doom engine with the Cyberdemon been your best help in slaughtermaps. Cacodemons in large numbers are also helpful as they can really pelt out their fireballs.

[Major Arlene]

1 hour ago, Maes said:

Is it really not implemented -as in, monsters don't retaliate at all even to repeated friendly fire, or they  have a quite high threshold for doing so -aka not just one stray hit? They might even actively try avoiding starting friendly fire unless they have a clear LOS/shot at the player, as is often the case in other shooters.

 

Also, not retaliating to friendly fire, even in games that don't have an infighting mechanic, does not automatically mean that no damage has been dealt, so it might still be exploitable. What's the case in the nuDooms?

Doom Eternal had what looked to be pre-determined infighting (which got really damn annoying in a particular staircase fight when they would refuse to come past the shields and it doesn't look like actual damage).

Infighting is almost a must in slaughter-based combat- while not always desired, learning how to draw enemy fire away from you when there's huge hoards of enemies will definitely save your life. It's an interesting piece to the combat puzzle.

[magicsofa]

Aside from the comedic and tactical value, I always felt that it adds a level of immersion as well. It gives the monsters a little bit of personality, especially since the projectile based monsters don't fight their own species. It can really add to the horror atmosphere when you hear demons tearing each other apart in the next room.

[Job]

I prefer to get 80% of all kills with infighting and environmental obstacles (barrels, crushers. Generally, I use my weapons as little as possible. In some ways, it makes the game more challenging.

[DMPhobos]

Infighting is one of those mechanics that make classic doom so unique, it can completely change how fights are played and it's a legit strategy. As many people point out, lots of slaughter maps expect the player to make the monsters infight. It's part of what makes doom feel like 'doom' if that makes any sense

As for Nu-Doom infighting, Doom 2016 does have monsters infighting that's similar to classic infighting, but it's hard to trigger it. There's a video where one of the devs explains how monster infighting works and how it's set up on a way that makes it so that it only happens when the player is actively encouraging it rather that by pure accident. Due to the nature of the combat in Nu-Doom this is hard to notice, which i guess it's the reason why it seems it was removed from eternal, where there's some spots with scripted infighting but it appears monsters don't actually damage each other on those instances
 

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

This reminds me: did Id Software developers ever explain how this feature came to be? Was it a freak accident or was it always intended to be?

Iirc it was a sandy petersen idea, supposedly the idea was that the demons didn't liked each other and that's why they would infight, and everyone else at id thought it was a cool idea. I might be wrong or misremembering facts here, but it's worth nothing that Sandy did designed a map where you're supposed to make the monsters infight (e2m9), so it was a very intentional idea

[Rudolph]

49 minutes ago, DMPhobos said:

Iirc it was a sandy petersen idea, supposedly the idea was that the demons didn't liked each other and that's why they would infight, and everyone else at id thought it was a cool idea. I might be wrong or misremembering facts here, but it's worth nothing that Sandy did designed a map where you're supposed to make the monsters infight (e2m9), so it was a very intentional idea

Was it also Sandy's idea to make the exit room count as the secret area and placing all the skull keys next to the doors they were opening?

Edited April 16, 2021 by Rudolph

[KeaganDunn]

It never happens when you want it to.

[Andromeda]

Unless the encounter is clearly designed to encourage using infighting to your advantage, I prefer not to rely on it. I find it's actually slower and more dangerous in most situations, but YMMV.

[roadworx]

i absolutely love infighting, i gotta agree with everyone saying it's part of what makes the original games so unique cuz....well, it is lol

 

it's unfortunate that you don't see it in games very often (if at all, really) cuz not only is it entertaining, but it's also really fun to use to your advantage and force infighting

[Somniac]

Nothing better than getting a Chaingunner (or maybe a few of them) to do half the work for you.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

I love it, it's a neat feature, this is why I went all the way in Brutal Doom to make sure big monsters could perform fatalities on small ones.


 

15 minutes ago, roadworx said:

it's unfortunate that you don't see it in games very often (if at all, really) cuz not only is it entertaining, but it's also really fun to use to your advantage and force infighting

It's because it's difficulty to imagine it being used. Most games have realistic enemies that wouldn't shoot each other purposely, and in games like, in Serious Sam it would be weird to see Mental forces infighting since apparently they are organized by a hivemind.
 

2 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

Doom Eternal had what looked to be pre-determined infighting (which got really damn annoying in a particular staircase fight when they would refuse to come past the shields and it doesn't look like actual damage).

I have tested this, they don't do any damage at all. They can be left like that for hours and they will continue attacking each other forever. It's also poorly implemented, you can literally stand in front of them, try to push them around, and they wont break their endless pointless infighting unless you shoot them first.

I tried to watch them in a specially hilarious spot in the first level of Eternal in which after getting hit 20 times by an enemy that was on a higher floor, the imp was pushed into beneath a destroyed building's ceiling, the imp and the other monster had no line of sight towards each other, and both kept firing their fireballs into the ceiling that was blocking their path. I hoped around and the imp refused to attack me.

[HombreSal]

It's really useful for pacifist runs and speedruns (I don't do those lol) and has saved my ass in UV fast more than once. With fast monsters it's super fun to watch.

[Snarboo]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Unless the encounter is clearly designed to encourage using infighting to your advantage, I prefer not to rely on it. I find it's actually slower and more dangerous in most situations, but YMMV.

This is generally my feeling on this. Infighting is a fun mechanic and an ass saver, but it can also be fickle and inconsistent. There's very few maps I've encountered with forced infighting that I've enjoyed, but with the right setup, it can be lots of fun! Map 26 of Scythe immediately comes to mind, mostly because you're also given a huge stack of ammo if you want to go mano-a-mano with the monsters instead.

 

Basically, as long as I have a choice in the matter and it doesn't drag on for too long, it's barrels of fun.

[LadyMistDragon]

Inifghting's great, but it gets annoying in a map with minimal ammo that assumes you can trigger it somehow.....and oftentimes, the map design doesn't quite suit it. It's partially based on odds, so you really need to think about the likelihood monsters will get mixed up as they're chasing you.

[out_of_service]

6 hours ago, Maes said:

Is it really not implemented -as in, monsters don't retaliate at all even to repeated friendly fire, or they  have a quite high threshold for doing so -aka not just one stray hit? They might even actively try avoiding starting friendly fire unless they have a clear LOS/shot at the player, as is often the case in other shooters.

 

Also, not retaliating to friendly fire, even in games that don't have an infighting mechanic, does not automatically mean that no damage has been dealt, so it might still be exploitable. What's the case in the nuDooms?

In Eternal it's scripted. In 2016, there is both scripted and actual infighting (although rare, it does happen).

[BeastOfBeasts]

8 hours ago, Doom-X-Machina said:

What's your take on it?

I love it and was very disappointed when the 'nu Dooms' didn't implement it. I always look for infighting potential in every large or arena encounter I step into, hoping to drag lower tier enemies into firelines of higher tier monsters behind and let them sort each other out. I tend to play with a cautious playstyle, using as little ammo as necessary and trying to be as efficient and effective as I can so I like to take as much advantage of monster infighting as I can. It's fun as hell to watch too, especially when something low tier fells something big...

Discuss.

I mainly like to make monsters infight when I either have no ammo, or when a map is boring.

[BaileyTW]

I'm a fan of it, it isn't always "free" as far as difficulty of doing it goes, and it's a nice way to tip the scales in my favor (when I am tipping them away from mine by wanting to go fast). Like those moments around barons or hell knights where I am in a bad position and a bit stuck and I can see a baron winding up an attack only for them to be struck in their back and because hell knights and barons don't flip their direction right away when infighting due to a bug, they shoot in the other direction unexpectedly saving my ass.

[Samz707]

4 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

I tried to watch them in a specially hilarious spot in the first level of Eternal in which after getting hit 20 times by an enemy that was on a higher floor, the imp was pushed into beneath a destroyed building's ceiling, the imp and the other monster had no line of sight towards each other, and both kept firing their fireballs into the ceiling that was blocking their path. I hoped around and the imp refused to attack me.

 

2 hours ago, PSXDoomer said:

In Eternal it's scripted. In 2016, there is both scripted and actual infighting (although rare, it does happen).

 

Wow, that's kind absolutely terrible, I didn't play Eternal (Not the biggest fan of 2016 so didn't feel a need to get it's sequel.) but getting rid of infighting then faking it is pretty much the worst way to go about it.

Either actually have it or actually don't have it, I despise modern gaming's infatuation with heavily scripting stuff and scripting events to fake having one of the most iconic things arguably about Doom is just scummy to me.

 

[Final Verdict]

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

Either actually have it or actually don't have it, I despise modern gaming's infatuation with heavily scripting stuff and scripting events to fake having one of the most iconic things arguably about Doom is just scummy to me.

 

 

I'm right there with you. It would have been better to just leave it out, scripted infighting was the worst possible decision in my opinion. Infighting has always been in my top 10 list of things I love about Doom.

 

Eternal is a great game, but the scripted infighting caused me to narrow my eyes... significantly.

 

[Jello]

11 hours ago, ax34 said:

And in Quake infighting is even better.

Watching a Fiend and an Ogre fight is one of my guilty pleasures in life.

[Rytrik]

9 hours ago, DMPhobos said:

Iirc it was a sandy petersen idea, supposedly the idea was that the demons didn't liked each other and that's why they would infight, and everyone else at id thought it was a cool idea. I might be wrong or misremembering facts here, but it's worth nothing that Sandy did designed a map where you're supposed to make the monsters infight (e2m9), so it was a very intentional idea

 

It was only after I beat e2m9 by blasting the hell out of everything (barons first, then later finding out about the cacos) that I learned that I was supposed to trigger infighting in that level. You live and you learn!

[Doom-X-Machina]

3 hours ago, Jello said:

Watching a Fiend and an Ogre fight is one of my guilty pleasures in life.

Don't feel guilty about that. At all.