RAY MOHAWK 2 - Development Thread

[Bobby :D]

30 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Same offer goes out for you, @Bobby “lolmcswagger”!

Well I know what my next speedmap will be!

 

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

[about bonus maps and putting maps in extra slots]

So, while I'm still hoping I can get my map to run on Chocolate, I'm not fully confident about it. I'll try to give a definitive answer within two weeks. But perhaps my map might have to go to a secret slot as well... It's just that the map is really big and sometimes Chocolate crashes without me knowing why, in tiny areas of the map where not much is happening and there are no VOFs. Is it too many things? Too big of a file? Too many special actions going on on the map? No idea. I'm going to use that one Chocolate Doom analysis tool to find out.

[Doomkid]

That's okay, Peccatum - if UberGewei decides he doesn't want to vanillify his map, you'll have at least one fellow limit-removing bonus map :) Don't sweat it. Let me know what you decide on so I can perhaps open on yours (and Uber's) slots for vanilla claimants. Absolutely no pressure either way.

[NeedHealth]

@Doomkid No sorry, I cant get my map to run chocolate doom but I think I know what the error is. You'll probably need 1 mapix separation (with the same heigh as the lowest floor to make the lift work.

[UberGewei]

@Moustachio Thank you for taking your time to write up this detailed report, greatly appreciated.

I definitely agree with you about the difficulty level. I found it too easy myself, but it's always a question of what other people think.

I'll make improvements based upon your feedback (and DK's), it would be great if you could play it again afterwards.

@Doomkid To be honest, I had completely missed that bit about the vanilla requirement. Don't ask me how haha.. but I did.

All the pretty pictures in this thread must have caused too much distraction *hicc* (:

But jokes aside - If I had known that I would have made the map with vanilla in mind, sorry.
This is quite ironic as it was one of the things I tried safeguarding during the development of SIGIL. D'oh.

Might take a couple of days but I'll get it Vanilla compatible!

& @Moustachio thank you again!

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Ayy, sorry about that Doomkid. I appreciate the feedback a lot -- after the success of RR2, I'd love to see this project turn out as entertaining and accessible as possible, so I appreciate the honesty! I'll give our map a thorough pass on difficulty settings at some point this week.

[Doomkid]

No apologies necessary! No rush at all.

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

Tested maps 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 9 and 10. Will continue tomorrow from MAP15 (the ones I skipped today are maps I've already played).

[Moustachio]

Updated Map 04!

 

The main changes involve lowering the difficulty of the lower skill levels (as requested by Doomkid) and addressing issues found on @FrancisT218's stream. The current version should hopefully be easy enough for the Doom community at large on HMP and lower, with UV serving to challenge more expert players, although I made some of the UV campaign a little bit easier as well.

 

And I finally added those sailboats.

 

^{They look better from far away, which is where you'll normally see them.}

 

I also went and replaced my canoe with the one from @UberGewei's map since it looks similar but better. I hope it adds a tiny bit of continuity as well.

[UberGewei]

I've vanillified and tweaked my map today.
Have given it a quick run through in Chocolate Doom and nothing amiss has jumped out.
Also added a few items & monsters here and there but nothing final.

I'm a bit disappointed with how some areas turned out, but it is what it is.

Let me know how you find this latest revision.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ke4t90d0jkvdl05/mohawk2_map07a4.zip?dl=1

[Moustachio]

@UberGewei I ran through it in Chocolate Doom and only noticed a few minor HOMs. These are harder to see without knowing what to look for, so I don't think most players will notice, especially at DOS resolution. Great job!

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

I had fun playing through the maps last night, very much looking forward to the second half tonight! These maps with the resource pack and the music are amazing! I love the way the whole set looks and feels.

@Moustachio and @UberGewei. As you know I played through your maps yesterday: the vod will be up on my twitch channel for two weeks. It's a bit of a pity that you both submitted a new version 3 hours after me playing through them but maybe you'll still find some of my comments useful.
 

Spoiler

I'm not going to write down most of my comments: please have a look at the video. But some things I would like to touch upon:

In a nutshell: I was not happy with Moustachio's map in slot number 4 and it shows in my playthrough (sorry!). But I actually have a lot of respect for the map and probably would have thought differently about it in a later slot. The monumental set pieces that start after the Big Open Area battle in the first 20 minutes are all quite cool, and I loved the detailing you've done everywhere. I was a bit confused about the progression near the beginning when the player reaches the big open area. Do I even have to go to the North-Western area next to the sea at all? I feel like there was no 'point' of going there, other than the backpack. I think that the first big area more than anything might just have been too much for me on a first playthrough. Maybe sensory overload :). Again the map slot it was in I think.

I actually really enjoyed MAP07 for what it was in the first version. You don't get to see big beautiful maps that you can just enjoy and walk through all that often. I was happy with the combat. I thought a few times to myself: 'o wow this room could have used 200 more monsters, but I also like it the way it is right now'. If I were to change anything it might be the water room: that could be a tight frantic battle space. Or the room with the two cybers perhaps.

During my playthrough I actually played MAP04 and MAP07 back to back (no MAP05 and I had already tested MAP06). I quite liked the contrast and rest, going from the constant fighting for over an hour to a nice stroll through beautiful scenery. Perhaps something like that could be done in the eventual order of the maps? Having a short, punchy or relaxing map follow up a big one?

@NeedHealth I enjoyed your map a lot! The only thing I can think of is to perhaps use a few different textures in the opening. So much use of the same browns and pipes. It felt a bit out of place with the rest of your map and the rest of the megawad. 

[UberGewei]

14 hours ago, Moustachio said:

@UberGewei I ran through it in Chocolate Doom and only noticed a few minor HOMs. These are harder to see without knowing what to look for, so I don't think most players will notice, especially at DOS resolution. Great job!

Yes correct, a few minor ones that are left; could perhaps fine tune it a bit more but I can't be bothered really, was quite the task already to make that area vanilla compatible haha (and there's not that much left of it either). Thanks for checking!

@Peccatum Mihzamiz
Thank you for the playthrough, noted down the feedback and applied it to the new revision!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qi8zuajxkb1tugf/mohawk2_map07a5.zip?dl=1

[Moustachio]

@Peccatum Mihzamiz Really appreciate the feedback and the vod! I do believe that Doomkid has mentioned possibly moving it up a few slots to compensate for the size of it, but I'm sure he's waiting to have all the submissions grouped up in order to sort them out.

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

I played maps 15, 16, 17 and 19 last night. I had a blast! It was basically me going: "o, I'm dying. This map is fucking great!" the last 4 hours of my playthrough. 

I think this concludes my playthrough of all the maps, except for the two that have yet to see a first published version. I am also planning to revisit maps 12 and 14 for another playthrough. I have to say that the difficulty level on the whole wad overall, when playing on UV, is higher than I had anticipated. There is hardly anything that I would call unfair however, and I think that the current order of the maps is a good base to start from and perhaps shuffle a few maps around. The things that get me killed in the megawad are mostly Cyberdemons. They are just such a hazard, and a good counter to the increased weaponry that Ray wields.

I am not going to write too many specifics. The vod of my playthrough will be up for two weeks if mappers want to give it a watch. Some thoughts I would like to write out:

Spoiler

One of only two fights in the entire megawad that was too much for me, was in MAP17 by @Aureliusand @rd. . It's the one with the timed lowering elevators with Cyberdemons and Archviles. I guess I could perhaps start that fight with the secret invulnerability and it would probably be ok then. This is where I wish I could change to a lower difficulty for just one fight and then switch back. I loved this map so much on every level. And I am happy that in between some of the more slaughtery maps of the second half of the megawad we have a map with such tightly choreographed fights.

@DFF on my playthrough there was a flying medikit in your map, in the storage room towards the end of the map.

Such an honor to be part of this megawad. It's a lot of fun, very beautiful and inspiring. I loved all the maps and think this will be an excellent product when finished. Again: I would like to do a co-op playthrough to test that out, in few weeks time. If possible: add some co-op stuff if not done yet.

[Moustachio]

I've updated my map again based on @Peccatum Mihzamiz's vod, and some personal touches have been added. I've done my best to address the length and difficulty concerns raised by multiple playtesters. Even knowing that this might get moved up, my goal with this revision was to cut out all the fat, leaving the whole map feeling more on pace. I've re-done a lot of the early secrets as well, including tagging the whole optional beach as a secret. I hope that this makes progression a little less obtuse during the opening, so the map doesn't drag on. Players who choose to spend the extra time in the opening will now be rewarded with a backpack, health and armor buffs, and a very early Berserk pack, saving time and effort later on throughout the level.

 

Download Map 04 [Revision 5]

 

Edit: Made a couple small changes. Should be the last for now. Go ahead and re-download the file if you've already downloaded Revision 5.

 

Took 22 minutes to UV-Max in Chocolate Doom.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Moustachio

[blue17echo]

I've been fiddling with the wad a bit, and before I start complaining, I want to preface that in general the wad is super fun. The weapons are all incredibly satisfying, and for the most part the balance is fascinating. I'm actually pretty interested in taking the weapon pack over to a few wads that are generally a hair outside of my skill range and giving them a go. Love the map designs so far, and love the vibe and atmosphere.

 

A few things stand out to me as a bit frustrating with regards to the balance and enemy/weapon design.

 

Nothing to snipe with. The blaster and pistol work in a pinch, but it feels like really wasting ammo to be landing 2 pellets per hit on some far away imps. IDK if this is a meaningful problem early on though. It's odd to come from RR2 that has one of the best feeling sniping weapons over to Ray Mohawks arsenal of a series of progressively stronger autoshotguns. Not a big problem at all, but just a thought.

The cacos, barons and hell knights all fling the same blue projectile. Cybies and your plasma shoot the same color projectiles! This leads to incredibly difficult to read fights when you're using the plasma gun (rocket launcher). This, when combined with the increased volume of fire meant that it can be really tough to see when a stray baron fireball or worse a stray rocket is rolling towards you. I think its critical that in classic doom its very hard to confuse your own fire with higher threat projectiles (imp balls do look a bit like your own rockets, but the volume of fire with the RL is low enough that it isnt a problem). I think there's a reason that the arachnotrons shoot different colored plasma! I had a similar problem to some extent with plasma troopers and super imps in RR2, but RR2 had way less straight up slaughter. The plasma gun here specifically causes issues-- it's CLEARLY the correct weapon to drop that pack of 12 barons, but with the volume of fire and similarly colored projectiles it feels inevitable to take a couple of baron balls to the dome. I think that returning the baron balls to green would help a ton with the readability of firefights. Especially with the general philosophy of heightened lethality on both sides, it's very frustrating to be taking hits from hell nobles and cacos that I just never picked up the projectiles from. Maybe I'm just getting old and my eyes are too terrible.

 

Similarly, firing the flamethrower has a ridiculous amount of visual noise (to the point where I'm constantly getting zapped by archies when using it because I can't tell if I'm being targeted or not). This makes at least some amount of sense-- the plasma rifle has always had the downside of lots of visual noise. I wonder if it would be possible to use a different flame sprite for the flamethrower? I generally don't love using archvile sfx and sprites for anything other than archviles personally. On the other hand, archviles are significantly lower threat in lots of "traditional" vile placements because they can be stunlocked pretty reliably. In my experience, if you have a clean line of fire to the archie you can knock them out without taking cover with the autoshotty, blaster, flamer or plasma. I'm way more willing to accept that this is actually an intended issue, however.

 

Also, it's really hard to remind myself that the plasma shoots rockets and the rocket shoots plasma-- i keep pounding 6 when I get ambushed and greet myself with a rocket firmly planted into a charging lost soul. I suppose that's a dehacked limitation though.

 

There are also a fair few doodads that have collision that are used maybe a bit too often in my experience-- the spiky stump thing in particular has gotten me killed way too many times at this point.

 

The reason that I ended up sitting down to write out some thoughts here was because I got incredibly frustrated with MAP12. I've cooled off a fair bit, but I found the gimmick kind of frustrating. Monsters constantly teleporting back into the main courtyard was an interesting idea at first, but it sort of just meant that every time I wanted to backtrack I had to deal with an encounter that was relatively trivial. It felt like the fights ended up just losing their teeth because half the enemies would teleport across the map, I'd wipe up the ones that didn't hit the linedefs then go back and clean up the few stragglers that did teleport back. And having to do that with the timed switch red door was honestly just tedious. Archviles jumping back there was pretty fun though, that was a good emergency. But when it's like 4 cacos and 3 barons and 2 revenants... it just felt like tedious fluff. I think I'm probably just being cranky here though-- I did like the map generally.

Coming off of MAP11, which ended up feeling slow and tedious because of the vast amount of open space to slowly trivialize and grind through enemies, the constant mild annoyance of backtracking to mop up stragglers felt like it just halted the momentum of the wad dead-- right when the wad starts handing out the real big guns!

[Cheesewheel]

SUINTV1.2.zip

 

Lowered monster count in HNTR and HMP.

[baja blast rd.]

On 8/3/2021 at 2:21 AM, Doomkid said:

While the vast majority of submissions have a degree of difference between the skill levels already, the main ones I think really need further "easifying" on the non-UV settings are those by @Moustachio, @RonnieJamesDiner, @rd. and @Aurelius. Excellent maps, but if you could make HMP cater to us Doom Posers, that would be swell, because your maps slap me around and call me names I'm not fond of on UV.

 

Went ahead and handled our map with Aurelius first. Changelog: 

 

Spoiler

HNTR: 

- first blue armor -> megasphere 
- two medkits in nukage fight -> soulsphere 
- elusive first revenant in nukage fight now a hell knight
- two "small" (because 20 is a lot lol) cells added in nukage fight 
(this fight isn't exceptionally hard to begin with, I actually... kinda ran out of both ammo and health while testing it on both difficulties, which should never happen on HNTR or HMP, so I made bigger changes than expected.)
- megasphere added in central area fight, a few medkits removed 
- cell pack added in central area fight
- soulphere in east area fight -> megasphere, two medkits and 50 armor removed 
- one small cell added in east area fight
- bullet box removed from area before YK (because now when you get here you actually have way more bullets and it's awkward to have to skip over it and come back to it), replaced with green armor (sort of insurance at getting here with no armor)

HMP (anything underlined is the same on HNTR): 

- first blue armor -> megasphere (and a couple medkits removed) 
- two medkits -> soulsphere and two medkits added in nukage fight (because of the third archvile that is not on HNTR) 
- two small cells added in nukage fight 
- two small cells and bullet box added in central area fight (not the biggest change, but running out of ammo here can be so devastating that it makes a big difference)
- soulsphere added in east area fight, two medkits removed (old soulsphere remains)
- bullet box removed from area before YK, replaced with green armor (same reasoning as HNTR) 

 

not a lot of monster changes there, but hopefully amping up the resources does the trick. geared mostly around the player not having to juggle picking up ammo and medkit pickups and intense fights at the same time, and having more of a health buffer for mistakes -- while still being an element of resource management. no final fight changes yet because I want to think about UV/HMP/HNTR all at once. don't hesitate to lmk if anything still seems to rough on those difficulties if you give it another spin. I will happily do another pass. 

 

On 8/5/2021 at 5:09 AM, Peccatum Mihzamiz said:

Spoiler

One of only two fights in the entire megawad that was too much for me, was in MAP17 by @Aureliusand @rd. . It's the one with the timed lowering elevators with Cyberdemons and Archviles. I guess I could perhaps start that fight with the secret invulnerability and it would probably be ok then. This is where I wish I could change to a lower difficulty for just one fight and then switch back. I loved this map so much on every level. And I am happy that in between some of the more slaughtery maps of the second half of the megawad we have a map with such tightly choreographed fights.

 

 

Spoiler

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed this map. Will mull over some slight but meaningful changes to that fight.

 

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

12 hours ago, blue17echo said:

Flamethrower stuff, stuff about all the blue, sniping and MAP11

I agree with the comments about the flames. Whenever I use the flamethrower in a hectic situation, situational awareness becomes very difficult indeed. Very difficult to see stuff. I guess that's part of the experience. If that's the case, then I wonder if there might be a way of still having the flamethrower be overwhelming, but with slightly less parts of the screen taken up by it. Perhaps a ring of fire, that's a smaller sprite close to the weapon and if possible: grows bigger as it moves?

Correct me if I'm wrong (not close to a PC where I can test it now) but does getting hit by the Slyor flamethrower attack have the same flame sprite as the archvile? If possible, changing that to another flame sprite might be helpful as well. If nothing new can be added then perhaps something like the last from of a Lost Soul exploding or something like that...

 

I really enjoy the Cyberdemon having blue projectiles. Makes them much easier to see in this brown megawad than would have been the case with the original sprites :). In my opinion it adds well to the overall balance of the Cyberdemon. I can see how it having the same projectiles as the player's blue automated rocket launcher could lead to difficulties, but I don't remember experiencing them myself. 
I also really enjoy the blue projectiles of the Hellknights and Barons, and can't remember having felt any confusion, or having felt that my situational awareness was down. I'm not sure I've seen many fights where there were lots of Hellknights, Barons and Cybers around me while I was fighting with the blue automated rocket launcher. But I think it would still not add too much awareness difficulties.

Just thinking out loud here: This is an important point in the 'does-the-wad-feel-fair-to-the-player' category. I guess it's up to Doomkid to decide of course. Have we gotten more feedback about this from players? And should we perhaps get a bunch more on this issue?

On the sniping weapons issue: I've never experienced this as a problem. I've mainly used the blaster to kill imps and other far away monsters. Indeed you only hit an imp with one or two pellets at that distance. But that has never felt like a waste to me because they still go down very quickly and often there is blaster ammo aplenty. I have felt in a few maps that I got access to the cell cannon a bit late, with respect to be able to kill revenants on pillars. Things like MAP15 and even MAP09, where killing Revs that are up high can take quite some shots with the (automated) shotgun. In those cases even the blaster takes a bit longer than I would like, when running around being chased by a hundred monsters. But that's just a personal opinion and those maps are well designed around their progressions.

I guess I missed playing through MAP11. Oops. Added to my list. 

[baja blast rd.]

On 8/3/2021 at 2:21 AM, Doomkid said:

While the vast majority of submissions have a degree of difference between the skill levels already, the main ones I think really need further "easifying" on the non-UV settings are those by @Moustachio, @RonnieJamesDiner, @rd. and @Aurelius. Excellent maps, but if you could make HMP cater to us Doom Posers, that would be swell, because your maps slap me around and call me names I'm not fond of on UV.

And for our map with RJD.

 

Spoiler

HNTR:
starting blue armor -> starting megasphere; later starting area megasphere -> soulsphere (mostly moving that megasphere to be more useful) 
30 bullets in messy ammo pile
imp added to top of west closet (an archvile is there on UV and I had a feeling of "why isn't anything there at all") 
one shellbox -> one bullet box (the blaster is a far "safer" weapon to use than the rest when dealing with cybies in this area, so despite being a small-looking change, that should make a meaningful difference)  
one pain elemental -> three lost souls 
backpack added in final part of starting area 
megasphere added in outside yard near crates (this fight is so "if you have 200/200 you can still die" that I don't feel conflicted about being generous with megas. extra megas are mostly "convenience" pickups, in that a good run can beat this area with 1 mega or something, but when you do need health, it sure helps if there is another one nearby...instead of blocked off by cybs.) 
one bullet box added in outside yard (taking out all the cybs with the blaster from afar is not gonna be that fun, but if the player wants to thin them down a bit before going in with the BFG, that might take some of the heat off) 
extra megasphere in last fight (same reasoning as above) 
extra 300 cells added to last fight (don't want the player to have been spamming cells, which the map sort of tells you is okay, only to find out it's awkward when they have to rely exclusively on the cells that slowly lower to deal with the archvile wave.)
six viles removed from final vile wave 

 

HMP (any changes underlined are the same on HNTR, so the reasoning might be up there):
starting green armor -> starting blue armor (UV retains the green armor) 
imp added to top of west closet 
one shellbox -> one bullet box
one pain elemental -> two lost souls (one PE still remains on HMP, whereas on HNTR there was only that one PE)

two HNTR small flame canisters near three viles now on HMP too (running out of meaningful ammo there is possible and can be a bit too much)
two HNTR cellpacks in outside yard near duplicate BFG are now flagged for HMP too
megasphere in outside yard near exit now flagged for HMP too
one bullet box added in outside yard 
extra megapshere in last fight
extra 300 cells added to last fight
three viles removed from final vile wave in last fight (tiny change but most of the intended change is resources) 

 

these are done with a lighter touch than the other map, because I don't want to pile on nerfs indiscriminately, but hopefully these settings are now more lenient (and more fun when they are killing people lol). if anything is still too frustrating lmk and I'll be happy to give it another pass.  

[Egg Boy]

As per @Doomkid's request, I tweaked the lower difficulties.

chocolate island.zip

[Doomkid]

Hey all, just spent the last few days out of town, will be checking out all these updates and compiling them soon. I still need to send that latest beta over to Gokuma as well to make sure he approves of my minor tweaks to his map..

 

Regarding the timed red door specifically on map12, it’s actually intended more for multiplayer than anything. Returning to the central courtyard through the dark cave is much faster and safer, there’s really no reason to try and grind through that packed alleyway, there’s a very large opening to the cave you actually have to go into anyway that I was hoping would be a clear guide!

 

(Actually, a similar thing happened to Peccatum when he was testing map01.. he lamented the long run a player must do after jumping to the blue armor, without just turning around and taking the little teleporter right back up that prevents said long run.. people are always missing the easier and faster paths in my maps, yet signposting any more blatantly would be downright condescending so I’m not sure what to do there..)

 

There was originally less monsters teleporting to the courtyard in map12 as well, but the choice was between having them get stuck harmlessly in the cave or having them teleport to the courtyard where they can actually do some damage. I never had problems with the courtyard getting too full, your firepower can clear the whole thing out in seconds. I’m not sure what I could do differently, but I’m absolutely open to suggestions!

[NeedHealth]

I am still updating my map but i have a few other commitments in between I need to hurry up with.

[Doomkid]

No pressure NH

[blue17echo]

5 hours ago, Doomkid said:

(Actually, a similar thing happened to Peccatum when he was testing map01.. he lamented the long run a player must do after jumping to the blue armor, without just turning around and taking the little teleporter right back up that prevents said long run.. people are always missing the easier and faster paths in my maps, yet signposting any more blatantly would be downright condescending so I’m not sure what to do there..)

 

I'm definitely open to going back through-- I might have totally whiffed on a shortcut.

 

5 hours ago, Doomkid said:

There was originally less monsters teleporting to the courtyard in map12 as well, but the choice was between having them get stuck harmlessly in the cave or having them teleport to the courtyard where they can actually do some damage. I never had problems with the courtyard getting too full, your firepower can clear the whole thing out in seconds. I’m not sure what I could do differently, but I’m absolutely open to suggestions!

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the courtyard refilling-- If anything, my problem was the opposite: there aren't enough monsters going back there to make a huge problem typically. Partially it's because with Ray's arsenal anything short of a full encounter's worth of enemies is pretty much just busy work. Especially for the hell knights and imps that get stuck in the hallways of the buildings.

 

I'm gonna give MAP12 another fresh playthrough and see what I missed.

[Doomkid]

If you still find flaws, please do share them. I want to make it as enjoyable as it can be!

[MidnightMage]

Hey I've got a small update, I'd like to replace my prior map poster with this one instead. Thank you.

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by MidnightMage : free up space

[baja blast rd.]

Tweaked the final figh t for map with Aurelius. 

 

Changes:

 

Spoiler

UV: 1 mega added (2 total now), replacing the soulspheres and medkits (still very intense, but with some room to mess up a little bit)

HMP: 2 megas added (4 total now)  

HNTR: some lateral changes for smoother fight flow, but this was about where it should be in difficulty already, thanks to the invul

 

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

Hey there mappers! I'm planning to play through the maps on co-op today, at 7 PM UTC. Stream over here. It would be great if you could join me. Send me a DM and I'll give you the password and server information.