RAY MOHAWK 2 - Development Thread

[Azure_Horror]

37 minutes ago, rd. said:

Updated version of our map with Aurelius. This is an updated version of 2n's because 2o's is actually an accidental reversion (hopefully no one has played that).

 

mohawk_aurd_map.zip

 

The version you uploaded is set to slot 19, overriding Vile Island. In mohawk2o "Poster Boy of Mayhem" was moved to slot 17.

[Doomkid]

Don't worry, a new "almost RC" build is coming soon and all the maps will be appropriately placed.

[baja blast rd.]

On 10/6/2021 at 2:44 AM, DFF said:

Another map update with a bit more balance tweaking. mainly swapping the megasphere before the imp fight to a backpack, and making the megasphere optional to grab by the waterfall. Ammo should be plentiful when needed, but should leave the player mostly dry at the end of the map.

 

Fun map! Here's a just for fun playthrough. 

 

 

Some stuff I noticed: 

 

- The megasphere is awkwardly placed imo. It's better than it was before, where you had to cheese the trigger to save it -- but you can get blocked from it by those cacodemons, which also have instant melee attacks and are way above you. That all punishes you for trying to use the mega smartly and also can't be anticipated by a first-time player. 
- Another big issue is the props that can block movement even when it looks like there is lots of space to move around them. I spotted one (by dying to it), but scoping for others seems prudent. 

 

- That whole part in the SW leading up the stairs wasn't fun: you can't really press against the doorway with the devastating siyors nearby and low visibility; if you hang back in the middle of the stairs, the stairs themselves can eat your shots; and finally standing below the stairs and luring everything to the door is unpleasant. 

 

- The last fight has a very bad aspect to it, with siyors that can teleport point-blank next to you. I found it hard to actually die there but it still never felt pleasant. Just feels like there is so much unforced damage potential there. (I'm referring to just playing the fight normally -- not in the video where I just left early for fun.) 

 

- You can leave the start easily, which is fine -- but it seems like a good idea to widen the tunnel connecting back to the start. There are also monster-teleport setups you can also use to have those monsters join in the big cacoswarm fight once that happens if left behind.

[Azure_Horror]

Poster Boy of Mayhem (UV difficulty, last version)

 

Replayed the newest version.

1) The updated pinkie-shotgunner-mancubus fight feels much more fun.

2) It felt that the map played smoother, and I had more ammo!

Maybe this resulted from some subtle changes, or maybe I have finally gotten good?

 

Two trivial things made me curious:

- Was the music chosen as a nod to Kaizo Mario romhacks?

- How to get that Rad Suit sitting on top of metal cube?

Edited October 11, 2021 by Azure_Horror : spelling

[Aurelius]

1 hour ago, Azure_Horror said:

Was the music chosen as a nod to Kaizo Mario romhacks?

It was mainly chosen because around the time I was making layout plans for this, Doomkid posted a collection of Super Mario World MIDIs. "Athletic" seemed like the perfect fit for the type of map that it was fleshing out to be.

 

1 hour ago, Azure_Horror said:

How to get that Rad Suit sitting on top of metal cube?

 

What if it doesn't want to be picked up? :<

[Azure_Horror]

On 10/8/2021 at 5:22 PM, Aurelius said:

What if it doesn't want to be picked up? :<

 

So my strategy of not picking that rad suit was the intended solution? :^)

 

That archvile nearby is surely a nasty fellow. Threatens to throw armed people at innocent suits...

Edited October 11, 2021 by Azure_Horror

[baja blast rd.]

Just moved 140 cells in the still-unnamed Vile map, since I found it easy to kill all the cyberdemons immediately instead of the intended chase. 

 

mohawk2o_rjdrdmap.zip

[Doomkid]

Could anyone who has tested this wad, or had someone test the wad/maps for them, please post here so you're not left off the credits screen?

 

I'm working on it now, it's one of the last things I need to assemble before posting a new build!

 

(edit: ah screw it, I'll move us into RC once I get the list!)

 

[Doomkid]

Alrighty, time for the LAST "not quite release candidate" build!!

 

https://doomshack.org/uploads/mohawk2p.zip

 

---

 

This has all 20 maps compiled, as well as the two bonus maps in their own separate wad.

 

All that's left to do (as far as I can tell) is complete some of the credit graphics and such. All the major stuff is now done! (FINALLY!)

 

---

 

Since he's been inactive for a while, I took the liberty of fixing all the non-vanilla stuff in NeedHealth's map (map15). Previously some lifts and such didn't work, there were numerous spots where vanilla crashed due to VPOs, and the texturing was not quite complete in some areas, but the map is otherwise a fun one. I fixed all of those issues, the map now seems to run seamlessly in all ports including vanilla and chocolate. I'm content with it in its current state.

 

@Scypek2, I also fixed a bug in your map where, as you picked up the Flamethrower on the crate, if you looked towards the basketball court, you'd see a flat bleeding (the sector that was used to make an "invisible wall"). I raised the floor height up a bit, now it works as intended. I had to so the same for a small building in the final boss arena, where you could also see a flat bleeding. In addition to those two (very small) errors being ironed out, I made the 4 pillars you have to step up a little taller, so that you don't have to be a speedrunning god to get to each one on time :P - hopefully you don't mind that small alteration. You can blow the last wave of barrels up early (the ones that end the map) before even lowing the final wall, if you want to raise the wall up a bit to prevent this you can, but I'll leave that entirely up to you.

 

@rd., I've penciled in your map name as "Arch-Visland", I think it's an adorable name, but of course I can change this once you've decided on a "not that long" name for this level! On that note, several maps were never given names, so I just filled them in with what I felt were suitable names. Authors, please give me a name within the next week (if you care to), otherwise the wad will be published with the names I provided. (@Peccatum Mihzamiz, yours in particular I couldn't even think of a decent replacement name for, so please let me know!)

 

---

 

Hopefully soon I'll get a list of everyone who helped to test this wad out so I can complete the remaining graphics, and any last-minute bugs or necessary adjustments can be made.

 

I think that's all there is to say! Enjoy, and please to leave any thoughts or feedback - we're on the home stretch!!

[Walter confetti]

Hooray!

[Noiser]

Alright, how many time do we have? I still would like to make a few changes to my map if I get the chance (any feedback on it?). Btw I will try to review some of the maps on the set. Hopefully I will have a bit more of time this week.

[Doomkid]

We won’t be at RC status for another week or so, and honestly your map is very impressive. One small alteration I’d like (if you decide to make some changes) is adding line action 337 to the edges of the surrounding water, for a “horizon effect”. I use this in map01 if you need a reference! In terms of gameplay, your map kicked my butt the first time, but once I got used to it I had a lot of fun. I don’t remember any bugs off the top of my head!

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

Hey there! Name for my map: 'The Man with the Mohawk'.
I tested most of the maps on single and multiplayer! I don't remember all that participated in co-op testing with me but at least it was Scypek and MattFright.
Individuals that tested my map are: TheNoob_Gamer, eirc, leodoom85, eharper256 and FrancisT218.
Congratulations everybody!

[Doomkid]

Thanks a lot for letting me know, Peccatum!

[TheNoob_Gamer]

47 minutes ago, Peccatum Mihzamiz said:

Individuals that tested my map are: TheNoob_Gamer, eirc, leodoom85, eharper256 and FrancisT218.

It was a honor to help testing this level! As for the main project, the radically tweaked gameplay certainly got me hooked (props to Doomkid and team!), though I'll hold off until the final version is released. In the meantime, congrats to everybody involved!

If only I didn't quit when this project started to become a thing...

[Gez]

As discussed recently in the Woof thread, the PSxx0 textures are faulty as far as Doom is concerned: they are larger than the single patch that makes them up, so they cause complaints about textures columns without a patch in some of the stricter ports and can cause crashes in vanilla if used on a linedef wide enough to expose one of the patchless columns.

[Doomkid]

5 minutes ago, Gez said:

As discussed recently in the Woof thread, the PSxx0 textures are faulty as far as Doom is concerned: they are larger than the single patch that makes them up, so they cause complaints about textures columns without a patch in some of the stricter ports and can cause crashes in vanilla if used on a linedef wide enough to expose one of the patchless columns.

Ack, this is an error inherited from the FreeDoom textures, which had all kinds of side effects including every patch bizarrely having been added as it’s own texture as well.. I don’t know if any maps are using this texture, but I’ll double check each map and replace it with something that won’t crash if I find it. Thanks for mentioning this, Gez.

[Gez]

They're not used (I ran SLADE's "replace in maps" feature to check, and it pointed out that it replaced 0 occurrences for each of the concerned textures). So the simpler fix is to delete these texture entries (not the patches, obviously).

[Scypek2]

10 hours ago, Doomkid said:

You can blow the last wave of barrels up early (the ones that end the map) before even lowing the final wall, if you want to raise the wall up a bit to prevent this you can, but I'll leave that entirely up to you.

 

Can you actually do that without mouselook? I think I'd lean towards keeping it low to make it possible to glimpse the sky right away.

 

My last update also included moving the four pillars closer together to make sure they're all reachable without straferunning, but raising them up a little bit sounds good too... thanks for the invisible wall fixes!

 

My map has been playtested by FrancisT218, Peccatum Mihzamiz and Azure Horror.

[Azure_Horror]

 

15 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Alrighty, time for the LAST "not quite release candidate" build!!

 

https://doomshack.org/uploads/mohawk2p.zip

 

---

 

This has all 20 maps compiled, as well as the two bonus maps in their own separate wad.

 

All that's left to do (as far as I can tell) is complete some of the credit graphics and such. All the major stuff is now done! (FINALLY!)

 

Hooray!

 

I didn't have time to test the last version yet, but I will attempt a HMP playthrough sometime on this week.

 

The 2o version of the WAD felt mostly complete on UV, with only one semi-serious issue remaining: the gauntlets. Even on version 2o they were not powerful enough to have a niche. Is it possible to double their damage (like with the fist doing five times the damage)? This way they would be strong enough to quickly eliminate single foes, but at a cost of keeping you in place. With many Ray2 involving multiple foes attacking from many different directions, the gauntlets would not be OP even with double damage.

Spoiler

If there is a problem with frames for dehacked sorcery - maybe it is possible to borrow one frame from Slyor flame attack? It seems to shoot 4 flames + 3 fireballs. From my limited understanding of dehacked, it seems that reducing the volley to 3 flames + 3 fireballs should allow borrowing one frame for gauntlets. The damage of flame projectiles could be adjusted up to compensate. Such change can also help reducing Slyor melee damage, wjich right now feels a bit too high. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Noiser said:

Alright, how many time do we have? I still would like to make a few changes to my map if I get the chance (any feedback on it?). Btw I will try to review some of the maps on the set. Hopefully I will have a bit more of time this week.

 

Some new feedback about "Pier Pressure" (If I remember correctly, about version 2n):

- Picking random shotgun from a dead shotgunner completely kills your momentum. Is it possible to provide non-auto shotgun right from the starting position of the map?

- Right now there is two shell boxes on top of the ship and two bullet boxes after blue door. I think it would be better to have 1 bullet + 1 shell box on the ship and 1 bullet + 1 shell box behind the blue door. The big issue with the first section is the lack of bullets at the start. This issue leads to melee combat, and to safely engage in melee combat, you need to spend lots of time on maneuvering around the arena to disrupt all the lines of fire. This running around feels gimmicky and somewhat monotonous. Switching of ammo boxes on the ship would allow for more liberal use of blaster and pistol, and would speed things up a bit. And the overall balance of ammo would not change at all.

- On HMP, inside the BFG building, there is a bug: the revs near supercharge do not teleport in. On UV everything works.

- Bonus supercharge in the blur fight is very hard to notice on HMP.

- I feel like HMP and HNTR need more supercharges/megas/medkits/armors. Monster balance for lower difficulties feels alright.

Overall: my favourite and most played map of Ray2. It is very fun, and really uses the Ray2 mechanics to create unique combat situations.

[Doomkid]

7 hours ago, Scypek2 said:

Can you actually do that without mouselook? I think I'd lean towards keeping it low to make it possible to glimpse the sky right away.

 

My last update also included moving the four pillars closer together to make sure they're all reachable without straferunning, but raising them up a little bit sounds good too... thanks for the invisible wall fixes!

Yeah, I actually found out by accident using the cell cannon. You can just shoot right over the wall and since explosions are infinitely tall in Doom, it catches the barrels. It's not exactly a huge skip - it shaves off maybe 20 seconds at best, and it's probably like a 1-in-20 chance (or less) this will happen to a player who is none the wiser.

 

Also forgive me for making the pillars easier.. I changed this to cater to my, er, "epic" Doom skills.. :) If you want me to revert it I certainly can, my intent is not to much with your vision - it's a stellar map after all.

[xdude_gamer]

Ooh almost done? Can't wait!

[Scypek2]

20 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Yeah, I actually found out by accident using the cell cannon. You can just shoot right over the wall and since explosions are infinitely tall in Doom, it catches the barrels. It's not exactly a huge skip - it shaves off maybe 20 seconds at best, and it's probably like a 1-in-20 chance (or less) this will happen to a player who is none the wiser.

 

Also forgive me for making the pillars easier.. I changed this to cater to my, er, "epic" Doom skills.. :) If you want me to revert it I certainly can, my intent is not to much with your vision - it's a stellar map after all.

 

I suppose it depends on how much you changed the height. Maybe have it at 136 units up instead of 104, that seems like a reasonable adjustment and may even look better.

 

Now that I think about it, there may be a way to make those barrels indestructible ahead of time without changing the skull wall visually - a double-layered sky ceiling, with the outer one high above the other textures, and the inner one lowered to block the gap above the skull wall. Here's my solution, you can copy and paste it.

[Azure_Horror]

Played some UV on version 2p.

 

1) It feels like the gauntlets were buffed between 2o and 2p. Is this correct?

 

2) Map 15 have some bugs still:

- the soulcharge at the starting area never lowers (even after grabbing YK, or finishing the map alltogether). Grabbing it by means of archvile-jump seems to be not worth the trouble.

- one teleporting cacodemon is stuck. (It occupies the most North-Western teleporter closet)

- on complevel 2, the ambush near the switch in the canyon area fails to open (There is a soulcharge near that switch)

 

3) Weird change on @Scypek2's map: the lava wall between four yellow doors at the ground level of the map does not rise. Is this a bug or intended redesign? On all previous versions, including 2o, this wall rises.

[Noiser]

On 10/11/2021 at 4:52 PM, Azure_Horror said:

Some new feedback about "Pier Pressure" (If I remember correctly, about version 2n)

Thanks again Azure. You are doing a great job :-)
Here's a few points I would like to highlight:
 

On 10/11/2021 at 4:52 PM, Azure_Horror said:

- Picking random shotgun from a dead shotgunner completely kills your momentum. Is it possible to provide non-auto shotgun right from the starting position of the map?

Good catch, I agree 100%. The only thing scratching my head right now is - I don't want to dictate where the player should go first and the shotgun could be perceived as a navigational tip. But I will try to find a way around this (maybe I should put two or three on corners, hidden them from the starting point but still not on the combat zone).

Btw, since we're talking about momentum:
@Doomkid, one problem I have with the current sprites is that the regular and auto-shotgun looks too similar, making it hard to differentiate them on a fly. Thanks to the fast-paced nature of the map, that got me killed a few times (using the regular when I wanted the auto).
 

On 10/11/2021 at 4:52 PM, Azure_Horror said:

- On HMP, inside the BFG building, there is a bug: the revs near supercharge do not teleport in. On UV everything works.

Oh snap I will fix that. Thank you.

 

On 10/11/2021 at 4:52 PM, Azure_Horror said:

- I feel like HMP and HNTR need more supercharges/megas/medkits/armors. Monster balance for lower difficulties feels alright.

Yeah I think item placement should be a bit more generous on easier difficulties. That's a great solution overall.

I think I also figured out how to fix the multiplayer issue spotted by @Peccatum Mihzamiz, I didn't tested on Zandronum yet tho.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Noiser

[Doomkid]

Damnit, that change in Scypek’s map, the lava wall no longer rising, is not intentional. My map editor just likes to #%?!ing change random shit on a whim, I guess it’s a node builder issue.. when I implement the idea for preventing an early exit, I’ll also make sure this gets fixed. (Same goes for the remaining handful of bugs in map15).

 

Noiser, I did try recolouring the SSG to be a more silvery colour to stand out from the black SG, but it came out looking ugly. I’ll have another go at it soon here to help distinguish the two.

 

 

[Noiser]

Alright, here's some stuff I think it needs to get fixed before a release:

- The new map15 by @NeedHealth doesn't work on Chocolate Doom. The reason for that is a signature made outside the map (the map works after removing it).

- Map 19 by @rd. and Aurelius @RonnieJamesDiner have a VPO on the the stairs before the red switch (sector 149, 150, etc), making it impossible to finish the map. It also have a tutti-frutti on the wooden door right at the start of the level.

- Map14 by @sluggard (one of my favorite maps of the set, I love the non-linear approach here) have a huge HOM on the first area (sector 86) and another on the mountain area (sector 26). I know Doomkid is lenient with DSOs (my map also have them) but I got killed by archviles because there was a HOM right in front of me lol. Deleting a few vertices should be enough to fix this issue.

- Map10 by @DFF also have HOMs everywhere and they are also detrimental to the gameplay, happening right on a horde of enemies. It was harsh enough to make me give up. Again, removing a few vertices should be enough to fix it (probably can be made in a few minutes).

I think it would be great if we could optimize these maps for vanilla players. I don't think HOMs are a big problem, but when they get in the way of gameplay I just stop playing altogether. 

I also would like to praise @Egg Boy, @Moustachio and @Cheesewheel. Your maps are incredibly cool and I hope I can make a detailed review about them on the future. Egg boy map is very fun and have great combat scenarios. Moustachio have this huge EPIC map that really feels like an adventure. Cheesewheel made an "open world-ish" map that gave me some serious good vibes.

The other maps I finished so far are also very cool. There's a few ones I was not able to play yet but I will make a full playthough of the entire megawad.

Btw @Doomkid, just a suggestion: I think my map should keep on slot 15. It's a lot easier than the one by NeedHealth and I also like how it comes right after Sluggard's map. Just a suggestion tho, don't mind me 8D

I hope I was able to be helpful somehow. I will try to finish my map by tomorrow, it's almost done.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Noiser

[Doomkid]

This is all VERY helpful Noiser, thank you!

 

Weird about NH's map crashing since it works in vanilla, I feel bad removing his signature.. Maybe I can do it in a different way that doesn't crash Choco.

 

I'll let @RonnieJamesDiner and @rd. take a look at map19 since I'm afraid if I touch it errors may show up, but I am happy to tidy up Sluggard and DFF's maps on the VPO front without changing gameplay at all (it's only a 5-10 minute job for each if that, I'm sure).

 

(Map19 is theirs, the one by Aurelius is in slot 17, I just forgot to change the list in the OP - d'oh...)

 

I'll also get your modded SSG sprite put in there, to help distinguish the two!

[DFF]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

This is all VERY helpful Noiser, thank you!

 

Weird about NH's map crashing since it works in vanilla, I feel bad removing his signature.. Maybe I can do it in a different way that doesn't crash Choco.

 

I'll let @RonnieJamesDiner and @rd. take a look at map19 since I'm afraid if I touch it errors may show up, but I am happy to tidy up Sluggard and DFF's maps on the VPO front without changing gameplay at all (it's only a 5-10 minute job for each if that, I'm sure).

 

(Map19 is theirs, the one by Aurelius is in slot 17, I just forgot to change the list in the OP - d'oh...)

 

I'll also get your modded SSG sprite put in there, to help distinguish the two!

If you could clean that up Doomkid that would be great. I was gonna do some slight possible balance tweaking, so I'll upload a new version in the next few hours. I'll try to do a little tidying up and you can continue if that works.

[DFF]

@Doomkid Alright here's V3 of map10
I had to make some significant architecture changes to try and combat this issue, but my own map has kinda defeated me. I've never ran into this problem before and its obviously a mapping technique i need some more experience with. I'm not so good with being very efficient with my resource usage. If you want maybe you can try and modify some of the connecting areas so they flow a bit better and clean up some more, but this is as much as I can tackle today.

Main changes include adding much more rockery and closing off long sightlines, as well as major simplifying of excess geometry (the buoys have been reduced to pentagons). I also changed the final arena to only have 1 wave of slythors.

I may suggest changing the imp horde to lesser amount of HKs, not as fun but maybe less taking on that area.