RAY MOHAWK 2 - Development Thread

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

We had a lovely playthrough on co-op yesterday. The video is here for the next two weeks in case you want to check it out. We played on Zandronum, on a TSPG server. For the most part we didn't run into too many major issues. Some of the maps could perhaps use a few extra monsters on co-op but on the whole it was lots of fun.

Some things that do break the maps are:

MAP02. @MidnightMage A soft lock immediately upon exiting the starting area through the first tunnel. I suggest adding a teleporter for co-op purposes.

MAP10. @NeedHealth It's a long way walking back to the battle field every time the player dies. I suggest using the window (that looks from the first area towards the water area with the sunken boat) as a shortcut that opens up to the player as soon as the player has progressed that far.
MAP15. @Noiser Broken on Zandronum. There is a soft lock at the TNT room. Players can neither get in or out of that room (on Zandronum) once somebody has set foot inside of it. What if somebody is in that room but kills themselves before triggering the TNT? But worse: the boat didn't explode on our playthrough and we could not go to the next section at all. :( Very sad. I don't know what happened.
MAP16. lol at the extra Cyberdemons. 
MAP21. My own map. Many softlocks: oopsy. I'm adding a teleporter to the starting area, have to find a way to fix the blue key area (where there is a whole series of softlocks) and add a teleporter at the yellow key room. I am also going to add a fast travel possibility from the start to the reception desk (I died a lot and had to run back the whole way constantly).

Edited August 25, 2021 by Peccatum Mihzamiz : posted incomplete

[MidnightMage]

12 hours ago, Peccatum Mihzamiz said:

Some things that do break the maps are:

MAP02. @MidnightMage A soft lock immediately upon exiting the starting area through the first tunnel. I suggest adding a teleporter for co-op purposes.

 Shit really? Ok I'll add a teleport in the starting hall to stop the soft lock.

 

@Doomkid I also saw your note on adding lower difficulty settings as well. I will adjust these as well to make the map more accessible. Expect an updated map posting sometime next week with said changes applied.

[Noiser]

Thanks @Peccatum Mihzamiz, this is weird! I will watch your stream and do my best to fix it (unless it's zandronum's fault, then it's out of my scope).

Edited August 25, 2021 by Noiser

[MidnightMage]

Alright here's an updated version.

Some additional easy skill settings and removed the starting softlock for coop play.

 

mohawk2_map2.4_b.zip

[Doomkid]

Hey fellas, unfortunately my PC is acting a fool and I’ll need to attend to it.. The only map update I still need to add is Mage’s, then the wad will be as up-to-date as possible and I can share it with everyone. We’re only 2 maps from RC1! @IggySqiggles and @MikeyScoots, whenever you can provide us with an update, that would be swell. We’re really close!

[Moustachio]

Speaking of updates, here's one more update for Temple del Sol.

 

Changelog:

Spoiler

(Revision 6)

• Added a teleporter at the northeastern-most part of the map linking it to the southeastern-most part, creating a checkpoint for multiplayer and a much easier way to get around.
• Changed some Barons to Hell Knights because killing so many barons with the plasma cannon was getting just a bit monotonous.
• Lowered the Arch-Vile in the cave with the first invul. sphere. It should be much easier to get with the plasma cannon now, and it can move around a little more to boot.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Moustachio

[ignatiOS]

Sorry I haven’t been active lately, if I have to be honest I bit more then I could chew with this level and it’s really unmotivated me to the point where I’ve barely even touched the level file over the last month, hopefully this weekend I’ll try working on it again to finish up the  level and finally upload something, even if it’s barebones. I’ll hopefully update you guys soon! :)

[Doomkid]

If you want to post the incomplete map and have myself or another willing participant finish it, feel free! You don’t have to do it all solo.

[Azure_Horror]

Found a bug on map10:

The first lift doesn't go down on complevel 2 (Prboom+ 2.5.1.4):

Spoiler

This lift is stuck

On complevel 9 the lift works.

 

Also there is RNG dependent frustrating feature on map 14. After you complete the blue key fight, you need to leave the room via teleporter. During the fight for blue key, some archviles spawn to the starting area. If you get unlucky, those archviles can fill your teleport destination with resurrected monsters. And there is a small, but non-zero chance that the monsters will deal unavoidable damage to you (you get teleported to a closed, and there is a chance that some monster will shield another monster). For example:

Spoiler

The archvile blocked me. Right after it died, the revenant behind an archvile fired a missile, then died to a blaster. Then the second revenant fired another missile after the firts rev died. Two missiles obliterated the 60 hp I had after the blue key fight. This is not the most likely turn of events, yet it still happened. And there is also a small chance of an archvile hiding behind a hell knight or another archvile. Good luck avoiding the zap, if you get such unfortunate turn of events!

 

[Doomkid]

Hey fellas, just wanted to ask if anyone is willing to bang out a small speedmap for this, maybe with my help? My initial goal with this project was to have it done quite a bit earlier than this and I’m pretty much itching to get it out at this point, Ive got other Doomy projects I want to move on to and it’s a bit harder with this lingering in my mind.

 

I’ve already completed a map to fill the (unfortunate) hole that was left when Peccatum realised his map could never be made vanilla compatible, but we still need something to fill MikeyScoots and IggySqiggles’ slots. (Of course, if you guys do end up completing your maps at some point, I can happily add them as bonus/secret maps alongside Peccatum’s! I just can’t keep this project in limbo for eternity, heh.)

 

Any takers? Just some small and punchy maps would be perfecto. If interested please let me know!

 

 

( @sluggard, I think a simple monster blocking line should be sufficient to fix that issue pointed out by Azure Horror, just an idea!)

[Bobby :D]

2 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Hey fellas, just wanted to ask if anyone is willing to bang out a small speedmap for this

Hmm, let me get some graph paper reeeeal quick

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

And here we finally have my completed map. All done except for the addition of my custom poster (that's already been submitted for the next resource pack release). 

 

I'm very much open to feedback, and to adjusting or changing the map in a lot of small/ big ways if needed. It's being tested by a bunch of people but I could always do with more feedback of course. I've tested the map with Crispy Doom and as far as I know the many nodebuilding issues have also been fixed (praise Daisy!).

 

The project is as I said before, really inspiring to me. Thank you all for your patience, I'm grateful to be part of it!

 

 

[snapshot]

4 hours ago, Doomkid said:

( @sluggard, I think a simple monster blocking line should be sufficient to fix that issue pointed out by Azure Horror, just an idea!)

Yeah that should do it, I was gonna make the bars blocking the door lower after you get the blue key, but it might mess up the ammo balance elsewhere, so I'll just use the monster blocking lines Lol, file updated in original map post.

[DFF]

I can take a look at making something if there is still a spare slot.

[Bobby :D]

I'm like 90% done with the paper map and to hurry up I started transcribing my finished layout in UDB and adding heights other accoutrements I left out. I think I should be done by at most Tuesday.

[Doomkid]

Considering it's been 6 weeks since the last version, I think we're due for a new build:

 

https://doomshack.org/uploads/mohawk2m.zip

 

Some substantial changes since the last version - I've gone through and fixed a bunch of the textures that would cause the tutti-frutti effect, though there's almost certainly a few left to find. Moreover, I've updated the map rotation, just slightly:

 

01 - "Back Ashore!" by Doomkid

02 - "Ossuary of the Hula Imps" by MidnightMage

03 - "Beachside Bookworms" by Doomkid

04 - "Surf's up in Nuketown" by Cheesewheel

05 - (untitled) by UberGewei

06 - "11 Holidays" by SilverMiner

07 - "WARehouse" by WalterC

08 - "Chocolate Island" by Egg Boy

09 - "Temple del Sol" by Moustachio

10 - ________ (no map yet)

11 - "Terraced Estate of Terror" by Gokuma

12 - "Beautiful Clean Coal" by Doomkid

13 - (untitled) by Sluggard

14 - (untitled) by NeedHealth

15 - ________ (no map yet)

16 - "Pier Pressure" by Noiser

17 - "Vile Island" ^{AKA "Alfonzo Stumbles Bloodied Into a Laundromat and, While Attempting to Hide From a Mob of Feral Donkeys, Unwittingly Finds That One Washer Is a Cloning Device That Turns All of His Copies Into Archviles (ft. Miley Cyrus)"} by RonnieJamesDiner & rd

18 - "Mall Rats" by DFF

19 - "Poster Boy of Mayhem" by Aurelius & rd

20 - "Ray of Hope" by Scypek

 

 

 

The levels have been arranged kinda-sorta-mostly in order of either difficulty, length, or both. There's always a smaller map here and there to break things up, I think the pacing works well with this current arrangement.

 

At this point, the two open slots are "first come, first serve". If you made a map but don't post here til after all the slots are full, don't fret as it will be included as a bonus map alongside @Peccatum Mihzamiz's lovely map.

 

 

 

A few things I noticed and wanted to mention - @NeedHealth, just asking about a potential update to your map that fixes the complevel 9 requirement? If you test at complevel 2, you'll get a better representation of what works for vanilla format. No rush, just wondering where you're at presently.

 

I also wanted to ask @Scypek2 about a very minor detail on the final level - Would it be okay/possible to somehow change that "big wall of the sky texture" to be a proper horizon on the outer bits, and maybe change it just to look like a tall building on the inner bit? In vanilla, that wall wiggles around a lot and just looks kind of strange/out of place in an otherwise very attractive level. I also noticed that the IoS monster spawner shoots the enemies from just above one of the four pillars, which looks a little odd/random, it that intentional? Also, this is a much smaller detail, but would it be okay just to add 6-8 trees on the beachy areas you can see from the windows? The stretches of sand just look so lonely and sparse otherwise.

 

@UberGewei, do you mind if I add just a handful more monsters to your map? Or of course you could do it yourself if you prefer, I just feel like a few areas are still a bit sparse and lonely. Doesn't have to be crazy, just like 15-20 or so more dotted around the place!

 

@RonnieJamesDiner and @rd., The filename for your map is Vile Island which is what I think will be used on the intermission screen (though of course the real name will be included in all documentation. Do you mind if I go with "Vile Isle" instead? I haven't been able to get that phrase out of my head!

 

 

I think that's all there is to mention for the time being! Can't recall any other things worthy of mention at the moment..

Hope you all enjoy the new build, and please feel free to leave some feedback and criticisms. What little we have received so far has been very helpful!

[Philnemba]

I have a leftover limit removing unrelease map from early 2020 that I might be able to modified for this for fun although can't guarantee that I can tone it down for vanilla so it'll probably be a bonus map for this.

 

 

Spoiler

 

[Azure_Horror]

3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Considering it's been 6 weeks since the last version, I think we're due for a new build:

 

https://doomshack.org/uploads/mohawk2m.zip

 

Some substantial changes since the last version - I've gone through and fixed a bunch of the textures that would cause the tutti-frutti effect, though there's almost certainly a few left to find. Moreover, I've updated the map rotation, just slightly:

...

05 - (untitled) by UberGewei

06 - "11 Holidays" by SilverMiner

...

 

IMHO, it would be better to switch maps 05 and 06 around. I see a few reasons for that:

1) "11 holidays" was designed with no blaster in mind and serves as a perfect auto-SSG introduction. And UberGewei's map is the perfect blaster introduction. The blaster is the most convenient and versatile weapon in Ray 2. So access to blaster can ruin the joy of obtaining the Auto-SSG for the first time, as the player may decide to rely on blaster instead.

2) UberGewei's map has Blue Cybers, which have a different firing pattern compared to their classic counterparts. For those of us, who played harder Ray 2 maps, this is not a big deal. But for the first time players, new cyberdemons could be a nasty surprise.

3) On top of that, some encounters on UberGewei's map have pretty relentless archvile usage. Again, for a first time player this can be an unfamiliar situation.

4) I also think that lively and exapnsive scenery of UberGewei's map would fit perfectly between more minimalist visuals of "11 Holidays" and "WARehouse".

[Doomkid]

Looks interesting Phil!

 

Excellent point, Azure Horror. That change will be made for the next version!

[baja blast rd.]

7 hours ago, Doomkid said:

 @RonnieJamesDiner and @rd., The filename for your map is Vile Island which is what I think willbe used on the intermission screen (though of course the real name will be included in all documentation. Do you mind if I go with "Vile Isle" instead? I haven't been able to get that phrase out of my head!

 

The big one was meant to be the real name and "Vile Island" was a pure placeholder (it's basically a literal description of the map). I'll try to think of one for the short version. "Arch Visland" or "Archv Island" might actually work because they are truly horrific puns, but I'd prefer to think of a shorter version of the long one. 

 

 

[Hitboi]

On 6/16/2021 at 7:25 AM, Doomkid said:

as it’s well past the deadline with no word from @Hitboi...

Sorry Doomkid, I was away from mapping for community projects and was busy on other stuff.
I will take Map 15 "Vacation Gone Wrong", with a midi of Bobby Prince's "Make It Tighter".

Edited September 17, 2021 by Hitboi : Less confusing context

[Egg Boy]

I noticed on the map list my name is listed without a space, this is the smallest nit pick of all time, but in the wad itself I would appreciate if it was the right way, again not a big deal. 

[ZeMystic]

2 hours ago, Egg Boy said:

I noticed on the map list my name is listed without a space, this is the smallest nit pick of all time, but in the wad itself I would appreciate if it was the right way, again not a big deal. 

[EffinghamHuffnagel]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet. I downloaded the newest 2m version to see what was up. Since it's vanilla-compatible, I fired up the last dev version of ZDoom. Fun. Picked up a shotgun. As soon as I fired it once, it disappeared during its re-load and I couldn't change to any other weapon. Grabbed the 2k version from allfearthesentinel. Same thing. Not using any mods. Tried GZDoom. Works perfectly as intended. Is this a ZDoom issue or just a last dev version of ZDoom issue?

[Doomkid]

14 hours ago, rd. said:

The big one was meant to be the real name and "Vile Island" was a pure placeholder (it's basically a literal description of the map). I'll try to think of one for the short version. "Arch Visland" or "Archv Island" might actually work because they are truly horrific puns, but I'd prefer to think of a shorter version of the long one.

Any name that's no longer than, say, 6 words will be totally fine with me! Horrific puns are absolutely preferred whenever possible. (I just don't want the map names too memey in terms of length, that's all really)

 

11 hours ago, Hitboi said:

Sorry Doomkid, I was away from mapping for community projects and was busy on other stuff.
I will take Map 15 "Vacation Gone Wrong", with a midi of Bobby Prince's "Make It Tighter".

No need to apologize, feel free to submit a map if you like but no pressure at all!

 

7 hours ago, Egg Boy said:

I noticed on the map list my name is listed without a space, this is the smallest nit pick of all time, but in the wad itself I would appreciate if it was the right way, again not a big deal. 

I subconsciously KNEW there was meant to be a space there. Instead of taking responsibility for my fuckup, I blame the fact that your name is surrounded by other "two words without a space" names like MidnightMage, SilverMiner etc, lol. I'll fix it!

 

2 hours ago, EffinghamHuffnagel said:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet. I downloaded the newest 2m version to see what was up. Since it's vanilla-compatible, I fired up the last dev version of ZDoom. Fun. Picked up a shotgun. As soon as I fired it once, it disappeared during its re-load and I couldn't change to any other weapon. Grabbed the 2k version from allfearthesentinel. Same thing. Not using any mods. Tried GZDoom. Works perfectly as intended. Is this a ZDoom issue or just a last dev version of ZDoom issue?

Woah, that's a strange one! Every port I've tested in (including vanilla, GZDoom, DSDA-Doom, ZDaemon, Odamex, etc etc) all worked fine, so I have to assume this is a bug with the last dev version of ZDoom. Probably something easily fixed on their end!

[Azure_Horror]

Some thoughts about some of the maps:

 

Map 02 (by MidnightMage) - Perfect demonstration of the powerful arsenal! Especially the final fight, which really shows the power of the pistol and allows you to refill bullets with the help of archviles and dead troopers.

 

Map 03 (by Doomkid) - If you think about it for a minute, this map looks somewhat Plutonia-inspired. But it does not feel Plutonian, because of the powerful guns. The first cell cannon of the WAD appears here. The cannon works very well (Duh!), but the ammo is limited, so the player will likely hunger for more destruction. That's pretty good, because...

 

Map 04 (by Cheesewheel) - This map is all about cell cannon destructive power. Very fun combat. Two nitpicks: firstly, I would replace the backpack with something else. On this map, increased ammo capacity is not really needed, and it can unbalance continuous playthroughs. Secondly, it feels like this map has too much shells (But this needs additional testing).

 

Map 06 (by SilverMiner) - Very fun, perfect introduction for Auto-SSG. Only nitpick: the secret is disappointing. This map has no use for a backpack. IMHO, berserk would fit better. The flamethrower + one small can of fuel can also work. (It won't impact continuous playthrougs much, because of limited ammo)

 

Map 05 (by UberGewei) - One of my favourites. Very important map. In many ways, it is a harbinger of the later insanity. The rooms become more spacious. The cyberdemons appear. The archviles become more vicious. Nasty ambushes also show up. Good thing that the player gets their hands on a blaster! The main idea of this map: blaster and cybers fit extremely well together. This lesson will be very important for the first time player. But the ammo count feels unbalanced. While the bullet amount is close to perfect, this map has too much plasma ammo. Maybe too much shells too.

 

Map 09 (by Moustachio) - An amazing Evilution-like adventure, with 10 fun secrets. But for a slot 09 map, this one has too little craziness, especially in its first half. IMHO, this map needs between 15 and 40 more arachnotrons, and some additional mancubi too. Another problem is the ammo count. I ended this map with 300 bullets, 300 shells and 250 cells, despite killing every single monster. Such abundance of ammo is definitely excessive.

 

Some general thoughts about weapons:

 

The gauntlets are too weak. They seem to be weaker than chainsaw from Bourgeois Megawad. IMHO, the gauntlets deserve to have their damage doubled, if dehacked Wizardry would allow such change.

 

Flamethrower. I think that a moderately flamethrower-focused map near slot 10 whould be nice. The flamethrower is a pretty gimmicky weapon but it has insane destructive potential against bigger monsters. The flamethrower-focused map would demonstrate this potential to a first time player. I noticed that many types of combat in Ray 2 allow the player to freely chose between the flamethrower and the blaster. So, in theory, a flamethrower-focused map should not be very hard to design. A map with an abundance of fuel and lack of bullets will naturally nudge the player to use the flamethrower.

 

Sorry for the wall of text.

[Doomkid]

Don’t be sorry, this kind of feedback is extremely valuable!

 

I kind of thought some extra fodder around the place would be a good way to use the extra cells and shells the player exits with on @UberGewei‘s map, but removing a little of the cell abundance would also help the balance. I also agree with @Moustachio‘s map being a touch too generous with ammo, but otherwise a lovely map.

 

I also think Cheesewheel and SilverMiner’s maps probably give the backpack too early in the set (on UV anyway). Otherwise great maps, but seeing berzerks where the backpacks are currently would probably be better from a progression standpoint.

 

The gauntlets can definitely get a buff, no issue there.

 

Since the flamethrower is currently introduced in Gokuma’s map about 1 minute before you find the BFG, I do agree a “dedicated to flame” map in slot 10 map would be a great way to break up the weapon introductions. I’ll start work on a new map with this philosophy in mind, unless I get something reasonably quality before I finish (in which case I’ll just make mine a bonus map).

[DFF]

I got a start on a relatively short, arena type map, if you don't want I can take a crack at "flamethrower introduction" aswell. Either way I can make my map as I planned and can change it to flamethrower focused if needed.

[philcul]

Hey, I played through the demo a little bit, just to test the new weapons and I have to say they are quite fun. Just one question: Why is the flamethrower in slot 5 and the cell cannon in slot 6? The flamethrower works like a non bullet fast firing weapon and can act as a "panic button" when you're surrounded by enemies and need to deal a lot of damage without receiving damage by the weapon itself, like the plasma rifle. The cell cannon in contrast shoots explosive projectiles with splash damage that can hurt yourself when you're to close, just like the rocket launcher. So, it seems to me, that the flamethrower, which is now in slot 5, fills a role similiar to the plasma rifle, which you'd normally access via the key 6, while the cell cannon, which is now in slot 6, fullfills a role similiar to the rocket launcher, which is normally accessed via the key 5. So... why don't you swap those around? It would make much more sense to me. Not that it's such a big problem, I could simply change the configuration in the menu while playing this wad but I wanted to hear your thoughts behind this!

 

Oh, and the other maps look great so far! I haven't played them yet, I want to wait until the whole project is near the finish line (or at RC1) but I'm really looking forward to it!

[Doomkid]

You know, that’s a perfectly valid point, and would be reasonably easy to fix.

 

I pretty much did it this way because the flamethrower needed it’s own dedicated ammo, but swapping them should be as simple as changing some of the spawn frames and then swapping the weapons in each map respectively. I’ll get to work on that and unless it’s for some reason too difficult to do, it will be changed for the next release.

 

@DFF, I trust in the quality of your mapping - wether or not you want to make a flame-focused map for slot 10 or an “anything goes” style map for slot 15 is entirely up to you. (Just let me know which sounds more enjoyable, and I’ll take on the other one, assuming no one else submits a decent map before I do).