Level Design

[Malurek]

In comparing vanilla Doom 1 to Doom 2 in design, i think the levels of Doom 1 had a better direction, and quality.  Doom 2 feels rushed, and thrown together sometimes, even some secrets don't make any sense. 

 

How can something be a secret upon entering, but thats the path you have to take anyway? 

 

Even though there are some advancements made with Doom 2, I just feel overall thhat Doom 1, had a little more heart put into it. 

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, Malurek said:

How can something be a secret upon entering, but thats the path you have to take anyway? 

It was a "workaround" so players would be able to get 100% everything, which would not have worked if there was no secret at all... Back in the olden days, no secrets meant the map-tally would always show 0% for 0 out of 0 found secrets. So, in order to not irritate players, dead simple placed the player start in a secret...

[Malurek]

I don't mean Dead Simple, (although, I didn't know that was a secret though.)   But other levels, (The Courtyard, comes to mind).  I just don't understand how simply walking down a pathway triggers a secret, when you are either supposed to go tat way, or its just a standard hallway.

[ASD]

E2M9 has an unmissable secret. Secrets are invisible and the least obtrusive things in level design.

[yakfak]

Doom 2 literally was rushed but I still prefer its levels. Nothing in the first game is as mysterious as The Pit or Gotcha, or quite as oppressively empty as The Factory, or as adventurous as The Living End. and the maps are so tall, and the enemies are more threatening and it generally feels less like a power fantasy and more of a nightmare.

 

also the secret cupboard in map25 which has nothing in it on UV is actually really funny

[Shepardus]

I like the thematic progression of Doom 1, from the streamlined techbases of E1 to the sprawling "corrupted techbases" of E2, and the wild visions of hell in E3. Doom 2 to me has always felt more like a hodgepodge of (mostly brown) odds and ends than anything cohesive, despite its action being more engaging on average.

[roadworx]

33 minutes ago, yakfak said:

or quite as oppressively empty as The Factory,

i guess that's one way to put it lol

[Maximum Matt]

More like..... The Craptory

[thelazyqdude]

My first thought after finishing Doom 2 was "Cool! I'm finally finished with it!" ... "Time to play some way better community creations."

[Biz!]

20 hours ago, Malurek said:

Doom 2 feels rushed, and thrown together sometimes, even some secrets don't make any sense. 

I mean, Sandy had about half the levels in the game dumped on him to work on, and there were more levels in general than Doom.

[Doomkid]

Doom 1 has a slightly better sense of place and thematic progression, helped by the episodic format. It also has (imo) somewhat better music on the whole.

 

Doom 2 has more.. everything else. Bigger levels, grander scale in general really, twice as many monsters, badass new weapon, secret maps that are actually cool homages rather than “this was too shit for the base campaign so let’s make it a secret”, a final boss that’s actually a challenge rather than “shoot it until it dies”.. I dunno, it just wins overall for me. (It’s been long enough since I last made this exact post, hasn’t it?)

 

Oh, Doom2 is better for DM as well. Imagine having to quit the game every 9 maps to select the next episode and start again, what a pain in the ass!

[printz]

Is this topic about the level design in the IWADs?

- Doom 1 has always been too easy for me, even compared to other games before and after it. Its saving grace was Episode 4, but not entirely. Episode 1 is typically easy, as any initial episode, even though it has a sense of space easily competing with more story driven action games. Episodes 2 and 3 can practically be solved by berserking everyone away. Episode 3 is trivial on Nightmare (or for any speedrunning) due to the freely open levels or the easy presence of invulnerability. Episode 4 is finally presented awesomely, but tends to over reward you so you have too much equipment in the end. 

- Doom 2 is actually challenging, especially the Sandy Petersen maps, which aren't afraid to throw the hell at you. But near the end levels it starts again to over reward you, getting too easy. Eh, at least the final boss doesn't care how much you get equipped :)

 

 

[DaAndroid614]

doom 1 feels more consistently good but kind of plain, whereas doom 2 is much more experimental, and its highs are higher and its lows are lower

 

i wanted to say i prefer doom 1 but the more i think about it the more i'm not sure

[Not Jabba]

On 4/28/2021 at 11:47 PM, Malurek said:

In comparing vanilla Doom 1 to Doom 2 in design, i think the levels of Doom 1 had a better direction, and quality.  Doom 2 feels rushed, and thrown together sometimes, even some secrets don't make any sense. 

 

How can something be a secret upon entering, but thats the path you have to take anyway? 

 

Even though there are some advancements made with Doom 2, I just feel overall thhat Doom 1, had a little more heart put into it. 

 

Also keep in mind that the original game didn't play a message when you found a secret, so it was completely unobtrusive. You would never have had that moment of seeing which random sector was the secret that was put there to give you 100%. The "secret is revealed" message is a ZDoomism (though I like having it most of the time).

[Roebloz]

18 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

The "secret is revealed" message is a ZDoomism (though I like having it most of the time).

Fun fact, that was also a feature of Doom 2 GBA! The more you know.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

For me, all commercial doom wads have good level design, heck I even think slough of despair and Fortress of Mistery are good levels. From all four, I personaly prefer TNT: Evilution.

On 4/28/2021 at 10:52 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

It was a "workaround" so players would be able to get 100% everything, which would not have worked if there was no secret at all... Back in the olden days, no secrets meant the map-tally would always show 0% for 0 out of 0 found secrets. So, in order to not irritate players, dead simple placed the player start in a secret...

Wasn't the secret at the platform that raises?

[Nine Inch Heels]

16 minutes ago, Lol 6 said:

Wasn't the secret at the platform that raises?

Just had to check, because it's been a while... actually you're right, it's the platform that raises, heh... At least I got the point about the map-tally right... But yeah, I suppose saying that it was placed in an "unmissable" location would've been fine...

[Asphalt]

On 4/29/2021 at 5:47 AM, Malurek said:

In comparing vanilla Doom 1 to Doom 2 in design, i think the levels of Doom 1 had a better direction, and quality.  Doom 2 feels rushed, and thrown together sometimes, even some secrets don't make any sense. 

 

Even though there are some advancements made with Doom 2, I just feel overall thhat Doom 1, had a little more heart put into it. 

 

I love both games just the same, but I sort of agree with your point.

The only reason why I overall prefer Doom 1 over Doom 2 is exactly the fact that in terms of level design, to me it feels much more immersive. You are supposed to be a marine left alone on a space base somewhere over the moons of Mars, about to embark on a journey to Hell... and the levels of the game actually give you that. I think they put quite an effort into trying to make them look as realistic as they could, probably because Tom Hall initially wanted the game to be story driven and somewhat believable.

 

Doom 2, instead, basically failed badly in accomplishing what its premise had been promised to be.

It should have been "Hell On Earth" but none of those maps actually felt like taking place on Earth at all.

Even when you finally come back to Hell for the last levels of the game, still the maps do not have the looks for what you would expect Hell to be.  I think the only maps that actually nail the atmosphere in Doom 2 are Downtown for the city levels, then Spirit World and The Living End for Hell. The Abandoned Mines maybe. The rest is just strange pseudo-gothic castles and less evocative techbase levels than the ones seen in Doom 1. And things are even made worse by bland texturing and lesser color variety. It's almost like with Doom 2 they just went for fun gameplay and screw the design altogether. 

 

Still it's one of the very best FPS ever though. \m/

 

[Malurek]

14 hours ago, Asphalt said:

 

I love both games just the same, but I sort of agree with your point.

The only reason why I overall prefer Doom 1 over Doom 2 is exactly the fact that in terms of level design, to me it feels much more immersive. You are supposed to be a marine left alone on a space base somewhere over the moons of Mars, about to embark on a journey to Hell... and the levels of the game actually give you that. I think they put quite an effort into trying to make them look as realistic as they could, probably because Tom Hall initially wanted the game to be story driven and somewhat believable.

 

Doom 2, instead, basically failed badly in accomplishing what its premise had been promised to be.

It should have been "Hell On Earth" but none of those maps actually felt like taking place on Earth at all.

Even when you finally come back to Hell for the last levels of the game, still the maps do not have the looks for what you would expect Hell to be.  I think the only maps that actually nail the atmosphere in Doom 2 are Downtown for the city levels, then Spirit World and The Living End for Hell. The Abandoned Mines maybe. The rest is just strange pseudo-gothic castles and less evocative techbase levels than the ones seen in Doom 1. And things are even made worse by bland texturing and lesser color variety. It's almost like with Doom 2 they just went for fun gameplay and screw the design altogether. 

 

Still it's one of the very best FPS ever though. \m/

 

 

I've never actually completed the first DOOM straight through, but I've played every level.  The maps themselves just seem to make more seance as to what they are trying to portray.

[Malurek]

On 4/29/2021 at 11:45 PM, printz said:

Is this topic about the level design in the IWADs?

- Doom 1 has always been too easy for me, even compared to other games before and after it. Its saving grace was Episode 4, but not entirely. Episode 1 is typically easy, as any initial episode, even though it has a sense of space easily competing with more story driven action games. Episodes 2 and 3 can practically be solved by berserking everyone away. Episode 3 is trivial on Nightmare (or for any speedrunning) due to the freely open levels or the easy presence of invulnerability. Episode 4 is finally presented awesomely, but tends to over reward you so you have too much equipment in the end. 

- Doom 2 is actually challenging, especially the Sandy Petersen maps, which aren't afraid to throw the hell at you. But near the end levels it starts again to over reward you, getting too easy. Eh, at least the final boss doesn't care how much you get equipped :)

 

 

nah, its about vanilla DOOM vs vanilla DOOM 2 level design, secret placements, that kind of thing.

[Malurek]

On 4/29/2021 at 8:39 PM, Redoom said:

I mean, Sandy had about half the levels in the game dumped on him to work on, and there were more levels in general than Doom.

Does that have anything to do with Romero being with ID at that time inconsistantly?

[Malurek]

I can also question Maps of Chaos with secrets in the same manner.  Map 3, you run around the corner from start, find some gear.  It's a secret.  

 

The, I forget the map name, but the level where when you walk on certain floors and they drop down, as well as a cave area, and the yellow key card exit door is in the room with two teleported in the water, and behind that is a secret you have to strafe to get to.

 

The secret in quedtion is outside.  You press use on a toxic pillar, it lowers a blue armor to the ground.  Secret.

 

I don't get it lol

[roadworx]

woah, a rare quadruple post, nice

[Malurek]

On 4/28/2021 at 11:52 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

It was a "workaround" so players would be able to get 100% everything, which would not have worked if there was no secret at all... Back in the olden days, no secrets meant the map-tally would always show 0% for 0 out of 0 found secrets. So, in order to not irritate players, dead simple placed the player start in a secret...

GZDoom shows that as 0/0, or maybe that's brutal doom doing that

[Noiser]

20 hours ago, Asphalt said:

The only reason why I overall prefer Doom 1 over Doom 2 is exactly the fact that in terms of level design, to me it feels much more immersive. You are supposed to be a marine left alone on a space base somewhere over the moons of Mars, about to embark on a journey to Hell... and the levels of the game actually give you that. I think they put quite an effort into trying to make them look as realistic as they could, probably because Tom Hall initially wanted the game to be story driven and somewhat believable.

I think people tend to confuse level design with art direction. Despite finding Doom 1 more visually coherent and interesting in terms of concept (the journey from human-made structures to pure hellish landscapes is quite effective), I don't think the level design is better than Doom 2 - at least in my opinion. I mean, D2 have more verticallity, more interesting enemy placements and more variation in layout and ideas than D1. 

 

That said, I also find D2 a bit uglier then it's predecessor, but I don't think abstraction (or semi-abstraction) is the reason of that. You can have some nice non-realistic levels without being a mess of inconsistent themes or monochromatic color schemes. I think Doom 1 is almost as abstract as it's sequel, but it also have more sense of narrative and direction on it's levels (which makes a huge difference in terms of presentation).

Edited May 1, 2021 by Noiser

[Malurek]

Should the different direction DOOM 2 took go to I'd software?  Wikipedia credits GT Interactive as the publisher, or Does that matter?

[Nine Inch Heels]

59 minutes ago, Malurek said:

GZDoom shows that as 0/0, or maybe that's brutal doom doing that

GZDoom is not a port of the olden days... I was talking vanilla DOS executable...

[Malurek]

Ahhh.  I didnt play the very original, I started playing around 95-96 like right after quake came out

[Asphalt]

7 hours ago, Noiser said:

I think people tend to confuse level design with art direction. Despite finding Doom 1 more visually coherent and interesting in terms of concept (the journey from human-made structures to pure hellish landscapes is quite effective), I don't think the level design is better than Doom 2 - at least in my opinion. I mean, D2 have more verticallity, more interesting enemy placements and more variation in layout and ideas than D1. 

 

That said, I also find D2 a bit uglier then it's predecessor, but I don't think abstraction (or semi-abstraction) is the reason of that. You can have some nice non-realistic levels without being a mess of inconsistent themes or monochromatic color schemes. I think Doom 1 is almost as abstract as it's sequel, but it also have more sense of narrative and direction on it's levels (which makes a huge difference in terms of presentation).

 

I feel the same about what you say regarding verticality, enemy encounters and variation. I think it mostly depends on the fact that the levels in Doom 2 has a far bigger scale in general. Larger maps, with larger areas, more enemies and much more emphasis on heights and platforming. That's why I wrote that it seems they wanted to focus more on gameplay at the expense of the aesthetics. Levels like Tricks & Traps or Dead Simple, while not particularly big, are basically pure arcade-style combat arenas, specifically designed to be just fun and challenging. Something like that did not exist in Doom 1, as far as I remember.

 

But I also believe that the "art direction" takes a pretty consistent part in what level design turns out to be. Because it defines the themes of the game, and by doing so, it sort of dictates what you can or should not do with the architecture, monster placements, and whatever. At least if you are working on the premise that you want to represent plausible environments, as most videogames usually try to do. So yes, art design and level design are not the same thing, but I feel they are closely interconnected. And I think they have both some weight in the final outcomes of the level creation.

I'm convinced that with the departure of Tom Hall, who wanted to place a bigger emphasis on story and worldbuilding, the other developers just decided to concentrate on pure gaming experience, and who cares if it will look incohesive. Which is cool, but to me it detracts from the overall perceived "quality" of the game.

[Shepardus]

9 hours ago, Malurek said:

Should the different direction DOOM 2 took go to I'd software?  Wikipedia credits GT Interactive as the publisher, or Does that matter?

GT Interactive was just a publisher. They had little to do with the development itself.