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roadworx

why is plutonia's difficulty so overstated?

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On 5/4/2021 at 6:32 AM, whybmonotacrab said:

Because they're gamers. Not Doomers. To someone who doesn't play Doom every day, Plutonia is difficult. Those guys are better than a most at video games because they play them every day as part of their job and they find Plutonia difficult. To someone who doesn't play a lot of video games it's insanely difficult. I don't understand how it's this difficult to process.

 

 It was hilariously disheartening seeing this right above a thread called [Embarrassing thread] Wads with a difficulty between Doom II and Plutonia where people were bending over backwards to tell OP it wasn't embarrassing to want to play easier megawads.

Isn't Civvie like, mainly an older-shooter player?

I don't know, just since most of his vids are for games like Quake, Doom, and Duke Nukem I figure'd he'd be pretty experienced at Doom.

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5 minutes ago, GraphicBleeder said:

Isn't Civvie like, mainly an older-shooter player?

I don't know, just since most of his vids are for games like Quake, Doom, and Duke Nukem I figure'd he'd be pretty experienced at Doom.

he is, and while he does love doom, he's not the best at it lol

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Yeah, but he's not a scrublord like me either lol. Incidentally, you've got to bear in mind that Civvie is an entertainer prone to exaggerating things for comedic effect, so taking everything he says as gospel is just silly. Incidentally, I don't think he's specifically at fault for painting Plutonia as HOLY SHIT, PLUTONIA'S THE WORLD'S HARDEST DOOM WAD AAAAAAA! because I've watched his vid about a million times (I have a severe addictions to his videos lmao) and he mainly highlights its meanest traps, its history for being the most difficult at the time and setting the new standard that would inspire the community for decades and also acknowledges how the community's efforts have long since surpassed Plutonia. I'd pin it more simply to its reputation rippling throughout the years among the community. It will still always reign as the most devious of the original IWADs and the bane of new player's existence when they experience it for the first time.

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Posted (edited)

To add to what Biodegradable said, Civvie does say at the start of the video that "Plutonia is nothing because we've had 25 years to get good and people make super hard levels all the time, but let me tell you we may never have gotten good without Plutonia" or something to that effect.
 

 Also, he covers the main experiences of games on the hardest difficulty that isn't a joke difficulty - but playing Doom 1, 2, and Final Doom isn't going to make you as good as someone who's seen the billion different ways enemies can be placed together in different arenas like someone who's active in either playing tons of custom content or making it.

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Posted (edited)

There are people who can't play the original IWADS on UV so of course to many Plutonia seems like an insurmountable evil. We have to understand that from the perspective of a normal gamer that has a casual relationship with Doom and has never touched anything the community has produced, Plutonia is going to seem brutal because it is definitely a large spike in difficulty over Doom and Doom II. A similar thing happens when people are playing Ultimate Doom for the first time and are unexpectedly slapped in the face with Thy Flesh Consumed.

 

If you have eaten, drank, slept and shit Doom for decades now of course Plutonia isn't going to have that same challenge anymore. When people talk about Plutonia's difficulty it's not a discussion aimed at this audience.

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As someone who is a doom scrub it's because plutonia is a clear jump not just in how hard it is but how hard it is from map 1. Doom 1, 2 and even tnt all ease you giving you at least a couple maps to get a feel for it's game design. Meanwhile plutonia throws two archviles at you on map 1 on HMP, let alone UV

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3 hours ago, AnonKaiju said:

As someone who is a doom scrub it's because plutonia is a clear jump not just in how hard it is but how hard it is from map 1. Doom 1, 2 and even tnt all ease you giving you at least a couple maps to get a feel for it's game design. Meanwhile plutonia throws two archviles at you on map 1 on HMP, let alone UV

ye, i've gotten that from all the other posts lol

 

how far have you gotten in it, or are you avoiding it

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Yeah, Plutonia only has a few hard maps and they get a lot easier the second time you play the wad.

Honestly, pistol starting Plutonia is the best way to hone your skill for community megawads. That's how I did it. It feels like I improved a lot now that I can play Plutonia casually. It also taught me the more "hidden" mechanics of the game in a really organic way (how to cheese Archviles, how to properly use the rocket launcher and the BFG, how to properly plan a route, enemy prioritization when they're all mid-high tier, infighting). Except for Cyberdemon dodging, Scythe taught me how to do that.

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17 hours ago, AnonKaiju said:

As someone who is a doom scrub it's because plutonia is a clear jump not just in how hard it is but how hard it is from map 1. Doom 1, 2 and even tnt all ease you giving you at least a couple maps to get a feel for it's game design. Meanwhile plutonia throws two archviles at you on map 1 on HMP, let alone UV

Yeah, as I've stated before, Doom 1, 2 and TNT has a gentle, natural progression in the difficulty curve (Thy Flesh Consumed is schizophrenic though), while Plutonia felt more like a difficulty wall which doesn't let up until you've finished the wad. Not to the same extent as Sunder as that way surpasses Plutonia, HR, AV, Scythe, and the like, but it does make you find the right strategy for all the kinds of challenges many have pointed out here. Cybderdemon dodging is something you'd find yourself doing in a few Plutonia maps, especially Cyberden and Go 2 It.

Edited by T-Rex

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This will probably add nothing new to the discussion, but a while ago I came across that Plutonia page by one of the developers via the Wayback Machine where it was explicitly stated that the game difficulty was purposefully made much harder than the original Doom II. I just looked up the links at the Doom Wiki and the page I remember had roughly the same content as this one (but it's not the same IIRC):

Quote

Skill level information:

Skill5 - OK so not even the level authors can do it on this....
Skill4 - Only for the Doom Gods out there - Skill 4 is EXTREMELY tough.
Skill3 - Probably what most people will play on, this still tests a doomers talents to the max.
Skill2 - Still quite tough, probably on par with the original game on skill 4. [emphasis added]

 

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6 hours ago, rzh said:

Yeah, Plutonia only has a few hard maps and they get a lot easier the second time you play the wad.

Honestly, pistol starting Plutonia is the best way to hone your skill for community megawads. That's how I did it. It feels like I improved a lot now that I can play Plutonia casually. It also taught me the more "hidden" mechanics of the game in a really organic way (how to cheese Archviles, how to properly use the rocket launcher and the BFG, how to properly plan a route, enemy prioritization when they're all mid-high tier, infighting). Except for Cyberdemon dodging, Scythe taught me how to do that.


The most difficult plutonia maps for me are 9, 10, 12, 15, 31, 32, 25, 30. I found 25 to be the hardest map due to abundant hitsanner use and little cover or health. That’s at least how I remember it. (Haven’t played plutonia map25 in a while) All of the others I can usuallly complete in one go without dying at all.
Plutonia is great for teaching new players the mechanics of the game. I think later scythe maps are more helpful for learning enemy prioritization than plutonia. Same with horde management. I agree that scythe was where I learned cyber dodging.

 

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19 hours ago, roadworx said:

ye, i've gotten that from all the other posts lol

 

how far have you gotten in it, or are you avoiding it

 

I'm playing through it now on HMP (on about map 8 also doing single segment because I'm not good enough to pistol start plutonia yet) but I've dropped it a ton before over the past like 2ish years. The game is starting to click with me and I have a much higher appreciation for it but that's also because I've played a ton more doom then and am just better at it now when I was the last couple times I tried it

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1 hour ago, AnonKaiju said:

 

I'm playing through it now on HMP (on about map 8 also doing single segment because I'm not good enough to pistol start plutonia yet) but I've dropped it a ton before over the past like 2ish years. The game is starting to click with me and I have a much higher appreciation for it but that's also because I've played a ton more doom then and am just better at it now when I was the last couple times I tried it

Playing through Plutonia on HMP and continuously is definitely the best approach if you're a casual Doomer as you can get maximum fun while at the same time having your skills being tested to the max as the Casalis have promised.

 

5 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:


The most difficult plutonia maps for me are 9, 10, 12, 15, 31, 32, 25, 30. I found 25 to be the hardest map due to abundant hitsanner use and little cover or health. That’s at least how I remember it. (Haven’t played plutonia map25 in a while) All of the others I can usuallly complete in one go without dying at all.
Plutonia is great for teaching new players the mechanics of the game. I think later scythe maps are more helpful for learning enemy prioritization than plutonia. Same with horde management. I agree that scythe was where I learned cyber dodging.

 

During my playthrough with the DWMC, I've made a difficulty rank for each of the maps, and many of the ones you listed are definitely the most challenging, though there are others I consider to be pretty tough as well. I'll recap using a scale out of 10: 1 = easiest to 10 = nigh impossible

 

Map 01: Congo - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 02: Well of Souls - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 03: Aztec - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 04: Caged - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 05: Ghost Town - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 06: Baron's Lair - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 07: Caughtyard - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 08: Realm - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 09: Abattoire - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 10: Onslaught - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 11: Hunted - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 12: Speed - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 13: The Crypt - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 14: Genesis - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 15: The Twilight - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 31: Cyberden - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 32: Go 2 It - Difficulty: 9.5/10

Map 16: The Omen - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 17: Compound - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 18: Neurosphere - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 19: NME - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 20: The Death Domain - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 21: Slayer - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 22: Impossible Mission - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 23: Tombstone - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 24: The Final Frontier - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 25: The Temple of Darkness - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 26: Bunker - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 27: Anti-Christ - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 28: The Sewers - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 29: Odyssey of Noises - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 30: The Gateway of Hell - Difficulty: 8/10

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2 minutes ago, T-Rex said:

Playing through Plutonia on HMP and continuously is definitely the best approach if you're a casual Doomer as you can get maximum fun while at the same time having your skills being tested to the max as the Casalis have promised.

 

During my playthrough with the DWMC, I've made a difficulty rank for each of the maps, and many of the ones you listed are definitely the most challenging, though there are others I consider to be pretty tough as well. I'll recap using a scale out of 10: 1 = easiest to 10 = nigh impossible

 

Map 01: Congo - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 02: Well of Souls - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 03: Aztec - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 04: Caged - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 05: Ghost Town - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 06: Baron's Lair - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 07: Caughtyard - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 08: Realm - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 09: Abattoire - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 10: Onslaught - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 11: Hunted - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 12: Speed - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 13: The Crypt - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 14: Genesis - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 15: The Twilight - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 31: Cyberden - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 32: Go 2 It - Difficulty: 9.5/10

Map 16: The Omen - Difficulty: 6/10

Map 17: Compound - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 18: Neurosphere - Difficulty: 5/10

Map 19: NME - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 20: The Death Domain - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 21: Slayer - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 22: Impossible Mission - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 23: Tombstone - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 24: The Final Frontier - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 25: The Temple of Darkness - Difficulty: 8/10

Map 26: Bunker - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 27: Anti-Christ - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 28: The Sewers - Difficulty: 7/10

Map 29: Odyssey of Noises - Difficulty: 9/10

Map 30: The Gateway of Hell - Difficulty: 8/10


The only problem I have here is that your rating system makes no sense. Rating Go2it a 9.5/10 in difficulty would render many episode 3s in megawads of today as mostly 10s or completely.

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10 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:


The only problem I have here is that your rating system makes no sense. Rating Go2it a 9.5/10 in difficulty would render many episode 3s in megawads of today as mostly 10s or completely.

Firstly, keep in mind that how I rated the levels is just based on my opinions, and besides, there are some maps from other Doom wads that MtPain27 do find very difficult that I actually find not as much as he would credit it, though he gives different type of rating system. Second, there are other slaughter maps that may be not as difficult as Go 2 It. In fact, I consider Scythe's Fear to be relatively easier than Go 2 It, though it is still the second-hardest map in the wad, with Fire and Ice obviously being the most difficult.

 

For a better understanding how I rate each level, here's a quick summary of the out of 10 scale

 

0 = no challenge

1 = ultra easy

2 = very easy

3 = easy

4 = fairly easy

5 = moderate

6 = semi-hard

7 = hard

8 = very hard

9 = extremely hard

10 = near impossible

Edited by T-Rex

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10 hours ago, T-Rex said:

Firstly, keep in mind that how I rated the levels is just based on my opinions, and besides, there are some maps from other Doom wads that MtPain27 do find very difficult that I actually find not as much as he would credit it, though he gives different type of rating system. Second, there are other slaughter maps that may be not as difficult as Go 2 It. In fact, I consider Scythe's Fear to be relatively easier than Go 2 It, though it is still the second-hardest map in the wad, with Fire and Ice obviously being the most difficult.

 

For a better understanding how I rate each level, here's a quick summary of the out of 10 scale

 

0 = no challenge

1 = ultra easy

2 = very easy

3 = easy

4 = fairly easy

5 = moderate

6 = semi-hard

7 = hard

8 = very hard

9 = extremely hard

10 = near impossible

 

I may not agree with your rating system however I do understand it's subjective. Continue.

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I'm not gonna lie, I'm amused by the idea that Cyberden is difficult in any way.

 

Mainly because its idea of difficulty is simply to take a Cyberdemon fight, and not a particularly unique or troublesome one at that, and just make you do the exact same fight four times.

 

Go 2 It as well has the problem where 90% of the map is simply "shoot at Cyberdemons from a distance, hide behind a wall when they shoot back". There's far too much open space and cover for the majority of the map to be a challenge beyond "oops, I slipped, better grab one of those dozen Megaspheres".

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