Is there still any demand for vanilla maps?

[Azuris]

Yes, i love Content for old Games and it is a Pleasure to see how People push the Boundries of Games to make insane Stuff.

[Murdoch]

Gameplay trumps looks. A good map is a good map, vanilla compatible or no. I like the advanced detail that source port maps offer, but a well executed vanilla map is still a good time.

 

39 minutes ago, Chip said:

I'd say there is a greater demand for them now than there was several years ago. one of the reasons I believe there is greater demand is because of that nostalgia effect.

 

Agreed.

[AD_79]

As obvious as the answer to the question may seem, it's still kind of reassuring to see such a unanimous response here, especially as someone currently working on an ambitious-ish vanilla project :P As a mapper, vanilla is appealing due to the simplicity it kind of enforces. Working within the limits to forge new, interesting things is a lot of fun, and due to the aforementioned simplicity usually doesn't take very long compared to more complex formats. Additionally, I don't think the vanilla limits are quite as harsh as some make them out to be. Everything can be reasonably worked around provided you're not trying to get too ambitious.

[joepallai]

I don't see myself ever stopping my vanilla mapping; I find it to be extremely satisfying to be able to make something remarkable within the constraints.   It's kind of a rush; sure it'd be a hell of a lot easier to map in Boom or higher formats, at this point; but I don't really have a need to with what I'm trying to accomplish (or the time).  

[PeterMoro]

Yeah, I love vanilla style maps.

This thread is good timing as I'm in the middle of making a 8 wad mapset to replace E1M1. Using Boom / Doom format and only stock textures, I'm finiding it really difficult and challenging.

[Noiser]

1 hour ago, AD_79 said:

Additionally, I don't think the vanilla limits are quite as harsh as some make them out to be. Everything can be reasonably worked around provided you're not trying to get too ambitious.

This 100%

These limits may look scary at first, but when you understand what to do there's not much to worry. From what I've been learning so far, the idea that vanilla can't be detailed, large or complex is definitely a myth - both in terms of modding or mapping (not that it needs to be tho, simplicity is neat).

[Biodegradable]

Maps of all formats are celebrated here on ol' Doomworld. New and old, Vanilla and modern.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Biodegradable

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, AD_79 said:

As obvious as the answer to the question may seem, it's still kind of reassuring to see such a unanimous response here, especially as someone currently working on an ambitious-ish vanilla project :P As a mapper, vanilla is appealing due to the simplicity it kind of enforces. Working within the limits to forge new, interesting things is a lot of fun, and due to the aforementioned simplicity usually doesn't take very long compared to more complex formats. Additionally, I don't think the vanilla limits are quite as harsh as some make them out to be. Everything can be reasonably worked around provided you're not trying to get too ambitious.

yeah, the limits honestly aren't bad at all. sure, you're not gonna make anything that's hyper-detailed under the constraints, but you can still make some fantastic looking stuff. case in point: btsx

 

i've really never had any problems working within the limits, personally

[pcorf]

I am working on a vanilla Doom 2 megawad which is expected to be complete within the next few months. It is fun to rejoice the challenge of vanilla mapping such as trying to keep visplanes below 100 (highest in the megawad is currently about 118) but make the map look and play well.

 

Edit: Avoiding the tutti frutti effect as well, making sure STEPx is not accidentally Y offset, etc.

Edited May 17, 2021 by pcorf

[Paar]

It's certainly good to "hear" there are lot of people that still enjoy (or even prefer) vanilla maps. I've done a limit removing map a few weeks ago and even if it turned out pretty good (in my opinion) it took a lot of time to complete and it was quite exhausting experience. I always had this feel the community expects big detailed maps full of custom textures and it was somehow demotivating for me even though it's apparently false! The more I dig into advanced mapmaking, the less I enjoy it as it doesn't speak Doom to me. I really enjoy making small, less detailed maps with focus on interesting architecture layout and gameplay ideas. I don't plan to make a map anytime soon now as I want to try Quake mapping but I will surely return to it, probably with vanilla-compatible episode for Doom 1. Now I know there are people that would potentially be interested in it and that it's worth it. Good to know!

[ReaperAA]

11 hours ago, roboticmehdi2 said:

Definitely YES! Vanilla is king for me, limit-removing is also acceptable. Anything else is chicken.

 

Ok this statement is just plain stupid.

 

There are plenty of high quality "advanced" maps being made that actually require much more time and effort than making vanilla maps. Heartland being a great example.

[Phobus]

I’m hoping the demand lasts into next year, as I’m working on something vanilla myself!

[roboticmehdi2]

2 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Ok this statement is just plain stupid.

 

There are plenty of high quality "advanced" maps being made that actually require much more time and effort than making vanilla maps. Heartland being a great example.

 

Your statement is stupid, and irrelevant.

 

I don't care how much effort goes into making "advanced" map, it's of 0 value for me. I don't have to like what you like. OP asked a question, I answered. What's your problem with my taste.

[roadworx]

4 hours ago, pcorf said:

I am working on a vanilla Doom 2 megawad which is expected to be complete within the next few months. It is fun to rejoice the challenge of vanilla mapping such as trying to keep visplanes below 100 (highest in the megawad is currently about 118) but make the map look and play well.

is that the zone 400 megawad you're working on? if so, i can't wait - zone 300 was legit pretty good :))

 

7 minutes ago, roboticmehdi2 said:

Your statement is stupid, and irrelevant.

 

I don't care how much effort goes into making "advanced" map, it's of 0 value for me. I don't have to like what you like. OP asked a question, I answered. What's your problem with my taste.

their problem is that you're shitting on other formats, and now you're making it worse by being an asshole about it

[ReaperAA]

10 minutes ago, roboticmehdi2 said:

I don't have to like what you like. OP asked a question, I answered. What's your problem with my taste.

 

I have no problem with you preferring vanilla maps, but saying that "Anything else is chicken" is disrespectful towards authors who make maps with more advanced formats.

[AD_79]

"Your project has zero value because I don't like it" is a terrible way to think and I hope you change that line of thinking soon, mehdi. A fair bit of the community's output isn't for me, but I at the very least have some respect for it!

[roboticmehdi2]

roadworx, you'r being that, not me.

 

Other:

 

I don't go to advance mod's release page and say "this is bad, etc", that would be not respecting.

 

I answer question, saying what I like and what I don't.

 

Don't stay on it this much.

[Bridgeburner56]

Let's get this back on track before I have to go get the trebuchet

[cannonball]

There is not only demand for vanilla maps, but demands for different approaches to vanilla mapping.

People still want wads that push vanilla to its limits (Like BTSX and even single maps like Mutabor), but there is also demand for more nostalgic pieces of work that derive from the classic megawads of the mid/late 90s. I see no reason to see this stopping anytime soon.

[SiMpLeToNiUm]

Any mapping is good mapping if it's the mapping you wanna do and the kind you wanna play. The advanced port maps/projects might get lots of spotlight, but vanilla and limit-removing are still chugging along with plenty of quality releases. At the end of the day, if you're making what you want, you're on the right track. Sure, some stuff might seem like it gets more attention, but there's also a plethora of reasons for that that fall outside of the scope of this thread. 

[Mayomancer]

Yeah, you can do a lot with vanilla and limit-removing format maps (see all the addons in the unity port). There's a lot of great projects using advanced source port features though, like heartland and death's dichotomy released this year, i wouldn't say they are competing directly.

On the map making side of things, i imagine working around the limitations can be as much of a challenge as implementing advanced features, for ambitious projects.

[Liberation]

There is never any competition between map formats and a decent mapper can map in any port, although you do need to reign the ideas in sometimes with vanilla.

 

As to the question, well we had 4 (I think) if not more vanilla megawads released last year, along with tons of smaller releases, so vanilla mapping is clearly very popular still. And considering vanilla maps work with most ports without any bother and on any system (potato or gaming rig) the demand for vanilla is infinite. 

[CBM]

I would say that vanilla mapping and slightly expanded vanilla mapping is still the main demand from people.

Maps that use 3D floors and mods that use 3D models does not seem to be in very high demand.

None of my 3D monster packs have had any impact at all and the only GZDoom map of mine,

that has got any kind of attention is a map I made for 40 monster challenge, a 3D hell castle map.

 

I guess a few people found it interesting that I was making a GZDoom'ified edition of the freedoom levels (I need to get back to that at some point)

 

But yes, vanilla and especially BOOM seems to be the preferred choice since most people don't seem to have the hardware to handle GZDoom and more advanced GZDoom mods and maps

 

 

 

[Liberation]

10 minutes ago, CBM said:

I would say that vanilla mapping and slightly expanded vanilla mapping is still the main demand from people.

Maps that use 3D floors and mods that use 3D models does not seem to be in very high demand.

None of my 3D monster packs have had any impact at all and the only GZDoom map of mine,

that has got any kind of attention is a map I made for 40 monster challenge, a 3D hell castle map.

 

I guess a few people found it interesting that I was making a GZDoom'ified edition of the freedoom levels (I need to get back to that at some point)

 

But yes, vanilla and especially BOOM seems to be the preferred choice since most people don't seem to have the hardware to handle GZDoom and more advanced GZDoom mods and maps

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't say that as such.. People do like the GZD stuff, but at the end of the day we are here to play Doom and fancy visuals (and they are very lovely) only really drive the community so far (inspiration notwithstanding). We tend to be more interested in how it plays.

However if you step outside of the immediate Doom community circle you will find things are a bit different, with GZD levels and mods getting a lot more attention than the average Vanilla/Boom map would, especially with GZD working its way into the hands of the indie devs.

[CBM]

2 minutes ago, Liberation said:

 

I wouldn't say that as such.. People do like the GZD stuff, but at the end of the day we are here to play Doom and fancy visuals (and they are very lovely) only really drive the community so far (inspiration notwithstanding). We tend to be more interested in how it plays.

However if you step outside of the immediate Doom community circle you will find things are a bit different, with GZD levels and mods getting a lot more attention than the average Vanilla/Boom map would, especially with GZD working its way into the hands of the indie devs.

as far as indie game devs go.. yes.. but as for GZDoom mods themselves, especially from those of us who have yet to attain god-like modding powers, then I'd say no :-D

[Lazlo Panaflex]

This is just my opinion, but to me classic Doom has a whole vibe all its own. It's partly the look, feel and sound of it; but there's also an element of nostalgia and deep personal connection I have with how the game impacted me at that time in my life.

Modding the game back then meant just more variations on what was the hottest game out at the time. But that was 25+ years ago now, and there are new technologies and better features in FPS'es on the market today. If I want new things I'll play an FPS that implements them best, and I do do that, quite often. But Doom to me will always be what it was back in the 90's. I love to play it - I still play it more than most new titles, year after year; and in a perfect world there'd still be an occasional gathering of Romero, Sandy, American, etc, and they'd crank-out new maps in the classic format every 6-12 months for us to enjoy.

 

I'm not saying new stylings are bad or wrong, far from it. Anything that feeds this beast I welcome with open arms. I was overjoyed when I joined up here and saw there's still a passionate playerbase I can hang with. I'm just saying that classic Doom appeals to me because of exactly what it is, so that's the content I love and it's the content I make.

 

[leodoom85]

Gimme me.more vanilla wads!!!

 

Vanilla maps have this "simplicity" feel that players still like it. It's fine going back to the roots.

[pcorf]

5 hours ago, roadworx said:

is that the zone 400 megawad you're working on? if so, i can't wait - zone 300 was legit pretty good :))

 

their problem is that you're shitting on other formats, and now you're making it worse by being an asshole about it

 

Yes Zone 400. Hopefully better than it's predecessor and another all original soundtrack with MIDI music full of emotion. I have read a lot of reviews about Zone 300 and what people liked or disliked the most about it and that inspired me to up the ante to 400 linedefs and make the sequel which has been in development for 15 months. I had been planning to make it for years. Like the original, MAP01-31 have 400 linedefs and MAP32 will have more than 400 linedefs. Been such a limit, the detail in these maps is fairly simple.

 

Plus another limit removing megawad which I have been working on since 2017 to follow next year. It is just a few maps (5) away from been complete.

 

And speaking of Vanilla, I have been to Manila before! :D

[Doomkid]

17 hours ago, Chip said:

Also, I think that ever since the Unity Port supported Add-ons, people have been making more maps to meet those limits to play it directly on there or to even possibly try to get it officially ported. 

We absolutely made Bourgeois Megawad in hopes of it getting ported/being the first wad with great DM arenas for console players to enjoy via splitscreen! No word back yet, but we've had loads of positive feedback, so all hope is not lost... Yet...!

 

14 hours ago, AD_79 said:

currently working on an ambitious-ish vanilla project :P

13 hours ago, PeterMoro said:

I'm in the middle of making a 8 wad mapset to replace E1M1.

9 hours ago, pcorf said:

I am working on a vanilla Doom 2 megawad which is expected to be complete within the next few months.

7 hours ago, Paar said:

I will surely return to it, probably with vanilla-compatible episode for Doom 1.

5 hours ago, Phobus said:

I’m hoping the demand lasts into next year, as I’m working on something vanilla myself!

 

 

[pcorf]

2 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

We absolutely made Bourgeois Megawad in hopes of it getting ported/being the first wad with great DM arenas for console players to enjoy via splitscreen! No word back yet, but we've had loads of positive feedback, so all hope is not lost... Yet...!

 

 

 

 

I can feel that indeed!