RAMP - Rabbit's All-Comers Mapping project [DONE!!]

[CBM]

I guess I could replace castle of secrets with another level that is almost complete.. a level called duplo that looks like is made entirely out of lego

[CBM]

okay, hell castle uploaded, expanded, fixed and verified... all maps verified...

 

EDIT

 

or perhaps I will replace castle of secrets with a map of the millennium falcon

 

just started the millennium falcon map, just too see if I can speedmap a fun little starwars map

 

 

also toying with the idea of making an "inside antivirus" map... were I take everything from antivirus and multiplies it with 8 and instead of being on top of the components then the player will be inside them and inside the motherboard traces... the player becomes an electron .. screenshot from 'inside' the 'CBM chip'

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by CBM

[Albertoni]

9 hours ago, CBM said:

the sheer amount of 3d floors going on in that level is taking its toll

 

Ah, the curse of attempting to create Quake maps in the Doom engine makes another victim.

[Dazel]

It might be a bit unfair to those that wanted to submit maps but couldn't to just go swapping out levels willy-nilly, but simply replacing the two staircases in the level with stacked sectors would likely greatly improve the performance, and if not make it at least smooth on non-gaming PCs, could at least render it playable.

[DavidN]

Please don’t start new maps at this point, Jul 6th was the date when all maps were meant to be in and near-final - if you’d like to retire a map due to performance issues, there are a couple of people who would be grateful to be swapped in.

 

Edit: I also have performance issues on quite a lot of your maps - I'm not sure what exactly causes it, but Navy is particularly slow. Is there anything in particular in your GZDoom settings that you've found increases performance?

Edited July 8, 2021 by DavidN

[CBM]

4 hours ago, DavidN said:

Please don’t start new maps at this point, Jul 6th was the date when all maps were meant to be in and near-final - if you’d like to retire a map due to performance issues, there are a couple of people who would be grateful to be swapped in.

 

Edit: I also have performance issues on quite a lot of your maps - I'm not sure what exactly causes it, but Navy is particularly slow. Is there anything in particular in your GZDoom settings that you've found increases performance?

Im not sure but you can remove navy and castle of secrets if there are others who would like to use those map slots

[DavidN]

Thank you for generously stepping aside :) I played Navy again and found my frame rate problems were mostly the fault of the mod I was using… will take a look tomorrow and let you know

[CBM]

3 minutes ago, DavidN said:

Thank you for generously stepping aside :) I played Navy again and found my frame rate problems were mostly the fault of the mod I was using… will take a look tomorrow and let you know

okay well if navy has ok performance then I would like to keep that one because I really like what I've achieved with the combat above and below water... and then give up Memory of E4M4 CrispyDOOM instead

[CBM]

performance setting tips for GZDoom:

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=53550

 

I guess the 3D performance of GZDoom is ALOT worse than I thought... I am beginning to understand the appeal of crispydoom and similar ports

 

one would assume it would have been improved over time

 

support for BSP does not seem so idiotic now huh?

castle of secrets would have been no damn problem as a Quake 2 BSP map

 

too bad the quake 2 community died many years ago

 

god dammit

 

...

 

guess I need to dial down my use of 3d floors similar to how I use them in aztek

 

and I doubt I will submitting this many maps to a community project in the future.. I have gotten ALOT of flak from my wife for spending FAR too much time on the computer while this project was accepting new map uploads

 

...

 

I am studying Lazlo's maps and it seems he uses the same technics as I did when I was making my first GZDoom maps... a mix of 90s mapping tech and modern mapping tech. I hope to make future maps that draw inspiration from the way he makes maps.

Edited July 9, 2021 by CBM

[Dazel]

You also can never go wrong with focusing more on quality than quantity.

[CBM]

56 minutes ago, Dazel said:

You also can never go wrong with focusing more on quality than quantity.

Pretty insulting comment TBH... I was under the apparently faulty impression that I was doing both... while also trying to do things differently so that I was not just making run-of-the-mill maps that looks like the maps that everybody else was doing... each map should have a purpose in my view...

 

Please do not mistake your personal preferences as being the same as a measure of a maps quality... most of my submitted maps have been made ages ago and some have come from previous projects so I have not been making all of them just during this project even if it might seem that way to you...

 

I tend to like to do mystery and puzzle maps and hybrid maps that contain multiple elements like ie. fps maps with puzzle and mystery elements thrown in... Also I always have a reason to want to do a specific map ideer.

 

It really isn't my fault that GZDoom turns out to be THIS poor at handling 3D floors.

 

All that being said, even if you, Vaeros and David doesn't like my maps, I have been getting personal messages thanking me for making great maps by others who DO like them... Aztek and Antivirus being especially notable in this regard...

 

However, if people do not like my maps, concepts, ideers etc... then I have many other things I can spend my time on instead of wasting it on Doom mapping.

 

It makes me a little sad that newbie doomers like you, Vaeros & others, have been increasingly spending time insulting mappers.

Edited July 9, 2021 by CBM

[jerrysheppy]

Wait, who is Vaeros?

 

edit: Okay, I see them in the userlist, but they haven't posted in at least the past two pages?  Where is this coming from?

[Dazel]

2 hours ago, CBM said:

All that being said, even if you, Vaeros and David doesn't like my maps

I haven't said anything of the sort here, and while I can't speak to anyone you've mentioned, (although I don't see where they or anyone else have spoken ill of the quality of the maps, unless I'm missing some juicy discourse in the project's Discord) it wasn't my intention to impugn your mapping skill or its results, and I apologize for the insinuation.

2 hours ago, CBM said:

It really isn't my fault that GZDoom turns out to be THIS poor at handling 3D floors.

On a certain level it is the responsibility of a mapper to understand the limits of an engine and to work around them, if you make a vanilla map that suffers VPO, it's not the fault of the engine so much as something the mapper should understand and adapt to, and make an asset of their limitations, ditto with optimizing the more advanced effects that something like GZDoom or Eternity offer. 

 

On a hopefully more positive note, what I'm really trying to get at is that you get out what you put in. I'm hardly a newbie, and I know myself from trying and failing to make maps for the better part of a decade that scratching the surface of concepts and ideas and tossing them aside to incautiously try something else without learning from the experience gave me years of scraps and nothing of note to show for them. Only though really focusing on ideas, expanding them from simple concepts and digging into what works and what doesn't, and why it works or doesn't, do you get results, I'm happier with my one map that I submitted than if I had put in ten of my various unfinished levels kicking around on one hard drive or another, I was able to take a few simple concepts, play around with them, tinker with the details, build on it, and it's left me with what I hope is a well rounded and complete experience. And hey, I've still got a lot of work and improvements to do on it, you can kinda tell where I lost my wind with visual detailing, and difficulty levels are more than a bit underimplemented. All to say that I'm far from perfect, and my map is far from perfect, but I'm putting my best on the table.

[CBM]

34 minutes ago, Dazel said:

On a hopefully more positive note, what I'm really trying to get at is that you get out what you put in. I'm hardly a newbie, and I know myself from trying and failing to make maps for the better part of a decade that scratching the surface of concepts and ideas and tossing them aside to incautiously try something else without learning from the experience gave me years of scraps and nothing of note to show for them. Only though really focusing on ideas, expanding them from simple concepts and digging into what works and what doesn't, and why it works or doesn't, do you get results, I'm happier with my one map that I submitted than if I had put in ten of my various unfinished levels kicking around on one hard drive or another, I was able to take a few simple concepts, play around with them, tinker with the details, build on it, and it's left me with what I hope is a well rounded and complete experience. And hey, I've still got a lot of work and improvements to do on it, you can kinda tell where I lost my wind with visual detailing, and difficulty levels are more than a bit underimplemented. All to say that I'm far from perfect, and my map is far from perfect, but I'm putting my best on the table.

 

Well clearly you have not been reading my post in its entirety. I have finished all the levels I have been submitting despite what you might think.

 

I have been experimenting... yes... but only because I am so sick of playing the same run-of-the-mill maps again and again...

 

As for limitations of the game engine... I have a good understanding of the GZDoom engine, despite what you might think... But I also expect it to be able to handle the amount of 3D floors in castle of secrets... yes its a big castle but really.. it is not THAT big... afterall I did map it from scatch during the course of this project and I avoided 3D floors whenever I could... I am still not good at combining portals and 3D floors, I am trying to learn it but it will take time...

 

Also... whenever I talk to the GZDoom devs and make suggestions that would help with such issues such as BSP support for example, then I am laughed at and basically being told to go F... myself (however to be fair, they are rather famous for doing that)

 

I just downloaded RAMP so atleast I will have personal backups of the maps I submitted to RAMP

 

David:

 

I no longer wish to be a part of this project, so feel free to offer as many of my map slots to other mappers as you can, any non-claimed slots will then just have to suffer by being stuck with the maps I put in to them...

 

If you are forced to keep any of my maps then use your own judgement as to what maps you think would be the best ones to keep (this is YOUR project afterall)

 

needless to say, I will not sign up for a possible RAMP 2, so don't worry

 

-----

 

I would be lying if I didn't admit to being very sad and disappointed by all this

 

This level of negativity is normally reserved for the ZDoom forums... :-(

 

So much for RAMP being a project for everybody

 

And to think I could have spend all this time with my family instead... atleast I finally succeeded in modernizing some of my best maps from the 90s such as quake world, navy and prison camp

Edited July 9, 2021 by CBM

[AD_79]

2 hours ago, CBM said:

Pretty insulting comment TBH... I was under the apparently faulty impression that I was doing both...

 

Less is more, CBM. As an outsider to this project taking a quick peek inside, it seems like you're far too focused on the sheer volume of maps submitted, as if that is the most important factor when it comes to any creative work. It likely would have been wiser to simply make a couple strong, polished maps (you can still make them "experimental" and "not run-of-the-mill" while taking this approach!) as opposed to whipping out a dozen of them seemingly for the sake of more content. This isn't an insult, by the way. It's criticism.

[CBM]

7 minutes ago, AD_79 said:

 

Less is more, CBM. As an outsider to this project taking a quick peek inside, it seems like you're far too focused on the sheer volume of maps submitted, as if that is the most important factor when it comes to any creative work. It likely would have been wiser to simply make a couple strong, polished maps (you can still make them "experimental" and "not run-of-the-mill" while taking this approach!) as opposed to whipping out a dozen of them seemingly for the sake of more content. This isn't an insult, by the way. It's criticism.

As David could verify by looking at the upload frequency, I have been spending a lot of time on polish on the maps I submitted... a notable exception is older maps such as e4m4 and antivirus, as they were aldready polish long ago

 

I even added additional detailing on older existing maps such as Aztek, because I like to think that my mapping skills have improved since I made that level originally

 

But it doesn't matter because I have already given David permission to give away my map slots as he sees fit

 

I am just sad and disappointed, that's all... and surprised that all my maps were really THAT bad as a bunch of you suddently seems to think.

I can't help but take it personally.

 

Again, I have actually gotten 'fan mail' PMs for some of the levels I have put in to RAMP... believe it or not

Edited July 9, 2021 by CBM

[Vaeros]

2 hours ago, CBM said:

It makes me a little sad that newbie doomers like you, Vaeros & others, have been increasingly spending time insulting mappers.

 

Eh... Calm down, I didn't said anything to you. lol

I'm not involved with the project but I like to playtest some maps myself... and I think Dazel is right, Your maps needs a lot of re-work. Just a few of them are even playable... did you even playtested them in the first place? Also, in my personal opinion you could have made just one map to show some of your mapping skills or whatever you want to impress the players, You don't need to fill 12 slots for this project even if they're old/rejected submissions like you said... I mean, why? those slots could be an opportunity to other people who wanted to join this project.

 

Anyways... As I said, nobody's insulting you but giving you a bit of criticism... It's not bad you know. I hope you can learn something about this.

[CBM]

13 minutes ago, Vaeros said:

 

Eh... Calm down, I didn't said anything to you. lol

I'm not involved with the project but I like to playtest some maps myself... and I think Dazel is right, Your maps needs a lot of re-work. Just a few of them are even playable... did you even playtested them in the first place? Also, in my personal opinion you could have made just one map to show some of your mapping skills or whatever you want to impress the players, You don't need to fill 12 slots for this project even if they're old/rejected submissions like you said... I mean, why? those slots could be an opportunity to other people who wanted to join this project.

 

Anyways... As I said, nobody's insulting you but giving you a bit of criticism... It's not bad you know. I hope you learn something about this.

If you like a post then you are also agreeing with it... silently... think about that for a moment...

there were no fixed number of MAP SLOTS!! People had AMPLE opportunity to submit as many maps as they wanted... it is a coincidence that we ended on 200 maps... okay I did try to push it to 200 because I think it would be cool... but I did not take away the option for others to submit maps... I am actually being generous by offering up all my map slots AFTER THE FACT!! FFS!!!!

 

Thanks for shit and don't expect me to be part of RAMP 2...

 

plus

 

See my previous replies

 

also... we were supposed to be in the bugfix phase at this point and I have been very open to suggestions and bug reports during this whole project and even made changes to the maps based on feedback from david and others

 

plus I am not even the top contributer based on map quantity... run the numbers for gods sake, but as usual, I am the target nomatter what the f... I do

 

jerry.. see my reply to vaeros

1 hour ago, jerrysheppy said:

Wait, who is Vaeros?

 

edit: Okay, I see them in the userlist, but they haven't posted in at least the past two pages?  Where is this coming from?

Edited July 9, 2021 by CBM

[LordEntr0py]

There's value in completing a lot of small, limited-scope maps as part of a learning process.

CBM learned about the issues with 3D floors without having to spend months pouring heart and soul into the maps that over-used them.

I myself have a habit of embarking on overly-ambitious mega-maps for my learning projects, which can be incredibly painful to fix -- if they can be fixed at all -- when I discover the flaw.

My own RAMP map has already undergone some difficult rework and still suffers from significant performance issues which I am not going to be able to entirely resolve.

To paraphrase something writer Ray Bradbury once said, "You might spend a year writing a novel to discover it's bad. If you write a short story a week I defy you to write 52 bad short stories."

Hasty edit: I'm still proud of my map, it's just that the performance is a significant flaw I wish I had been able to foresee before spending so long working on some of the aspects of it.

[CBM]

11 hours ago, Albertoni said:

 

Ah, the curse of attempting to create Quake maps in the Doom engine makes another victim.

Oh yes, guilty as charged... LOL

 

[CBM]

9 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

There's value in completing a lot of small, limited-scope maps as part of a learning process.

CBM learned about the issues with 3D floors without having to spend months pouring heart and soul into the maps that over-used them.

I myself have a habit of embarking on overly-ambitious mega-maps for my learning projects, which can be incredibly painful to fix -- if they can be fixed at all -- when I discover the flaw.

My own RAMP map has already undergone some difficult rework and still suffers from significant performance issues which I am not going to be able to entirely resolve.

To paraphrase something writer Ray Bradbury once said, "You might spend a year writing a novel to discover it's bad. If you write a short story a week I defy you to write 52 bad short stories."

Very true

 

hm, who knows... the potato mafia might force you to give up your map as well then...

 

castle of secrets was an experiment... it turned out to be an experiment that was not successfull.. but as you said, I learned from it and perhaps I will try again by using a combination of portals and 3d floors too see if it will help with the performance issues that 3D floors can have

 

It might have been my mistake but I saw this project as being just as much about learning as it was about submitting maps of all tiers... if we all have to start out mapping at god tier then we wont get many maps here on doomworld

 

I bet I was not the only one doing experimentation... telefragger 1 and 2 comes to mind for example

 

I thank you for finally bringing something positive to this whole ordeal :-)

 

-----

 

I hope that those that were to slow to reserve map slots when they had the chance can now benefit from the map slots I am willing to donate after the fact

Edited July 9, 2021 by CBM

[jerrysheppy]

On 7/9/2021 at 3:23 AM, LordEntr0py said:

To paraphrase something writer Ray Bradbury once said, "You might spend a year writing a novel to discover it's bad. If you write a short story a week I defy you to write 52 bad short stories."

 

I feel like it's been implicit that the folks saying "quality over quantity" are talking about the released work, at the end of whatever process is necessary to produce it.  The question has never been whether people are going to make failed/flawed attempts as part of the learning curve, because no shit, of course they are, and everyone hopefully agrees that no one should be judged for that per se.  

 

To plug it back into the analogy, I doubt Bradbury would tell you to put the "bad" stories into the anthology, so to speak.

Edited August 4, 2022 by jerrysheppy

[CBM]

11 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

 

I feel like it's been implicit that the folks saying "quality over quantity" are talking about the released work, at the end of whatever process is necessary to produce it.  The question has never been whether people are going to make failed/flawed attempts as part of the learning curve, because no shit, of course they are, and everyone hopefully agrees that no one should be judged for that per se.  

 

To plug it back into the analogy, I doubt the great Mr. Bradbury would tell you to put the "bad" stories into the anthology, so to speak.

It felt very much like the current state of my work here in RAMP... despite me always being very open to suggestions etc...

 

people have forgotten that we were supposed to be in the bugfix phase now... but it doesnt matter for me anymore as I have officially left this project

 

frankly... the people that didn't make the deadline because they needed to polish... have misunderstood what this was about... the 6th of juli... the map should be mostly complete and playable... not uber polished... that is what we were supposed to be doing NOW... for gods sake.. look at DOOM-1... it is STILL being polished

 

also.. I looked at other maps in this project and they have misaligned textures and a bunch of other stuff that needs urgent fixing.... atleast I use the map analyzer before submitting a map...

 

for the record and because people apparently doesnt read my posts or this thread for that matter before replying...

 

mxbobbie49 actually submitted 13 maps to RAMP

 

so why are you not all on HIS CASE then?

 

epicyolomaster420, submitted 11 maps

 

engired, that is busy agreeing with the haters.. submitted 7 maps... PRACTICE what you preach much?

 

I am so sorry I am not a god-tier mapper but then again, I didn't know it was a requirement for this project

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by CBM

[LordEntr0py]

6 minutes ago, CBM said:

It felt very much like the current state of my work here in RAMP... despite me always being very open to suggestions etc...

 

people have forgotten that we were supposed to be in the bugfix phase now... but it doesnt matter for me anymore as I have officially left this project

 

frankly... the people that didn't make the deadline because they needed to polish... have misunderstood what this was about... the 6th of juli... the map should be mostly complete and playable... not uber polished... that is what we were supposed to be doing NOW

This is true. I didn't really make the deadline. Only submitted my own final version last night!

Not from lack of work, but more over-ambition.

Hope I'm misunderstanding, but please don't withdraw your maps or anything. They were submitted in the spirit of the project and deserve to be there. They are more valuable to you as part of it, where you're still more likely to get feedback from people playing them.

[CBM]

1 minute ago, LordEntr0py said:

This is true. I didn't really make the deadline. Only submitted my own final version last night!

Not from lack of work, but more over-ambition.

Hope I'm misunderstanding, but please don't withdraw your maps or anything. They were submitted in the spirit of the project and deserve to be there. They are more valuable to you as part of it, where you're still more likely to get feedback from people playing them.

No, I do not wish to be part of a project where I am not wanted.. I will have to get feedback somewhere else

[LordEntr0py]

1 minute ago, CBM said:

No, I do not wish to be part of a project where I am not wanted.. I will have to get feedback somewhere else

The critics in this thread are not the arbiters of the project. If you choose to withdraw a map based on performance issues that makes sense (you discussed that above), but don't devalue your own contributions based on a few comments.

Happy to chat in DMs if you want to talk it through.

[CBM]

8 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

The critics in this thread are not the arbiters of the project. If you choose to withdraw a map based on performance issues that makes sense (you discussed that above), but don't devalue your own contributions based on a few comments.

Happy to chat in DMs if you want to talk it through.

Well I am waiting for David to reply... maybe he can help me determine if any of my submissions are worth keeping in this project but thanks for the offer... I hope he will test them all without that mod he mentioned that stole performance... You are a kind soul

[Dazel]

I really don't think anyone is telling you to pull your maps dude. People are just giving very basic critique and advice, and I don't see how this kind of response follows from what's been said. I certainly don't appreciate my own map, or everyone else being attacked either, being called 'run-of-the-mill' and implying everyone else's maps serve no purpose is a lot more insulting than saying that I'd like to see your ideas expanded on more distinctly and concretely, and that the maps have performance issues.

[CBM]

1 hour ago, Dazel said:

I really don't think anyone is telling you to pull your maps dude. People are just giving very basic critique and advice, and I don't see how this kind of response follows from what's been said. I certainly don't appreciate my own map, or everyone else being attacked either, being called 'run-of-the-mill' and implying everyone else's maps serve no purpose is a lot more insulting than saying that I'd like to see your ideas expanded on more distinctly and concretely, and that the maps have performance issues.

 

 

1 hour ago, FunnyHorsie said:

[mod edit: unnecessarily rude hatchet job removed] 

 

 

I was talking about the levels you generally see made for doom.... again nobody thinks it nessecery to read a thread before posting.. I actually mentioned telefragger 1 and 2 as being cool

 

but I have the same answer to both of you...

 

consider my maps gone... atleast I know who the a...holes are now

 

and

whatever dude

[Silhouette 03]

@CBM I've been following this whole debacle for a while now, and debating whether I should say anything since I don't want to turn David's thread into a warzone. People are giving you their own personal critiques. Whether you choose to heed their advice and improve your maps is your own business, but becoming angry and lashing out at others is not the way to go. I don't know where you came up with the idea that you were unwanted, since all mappers of all skills were welcome. The sole reason I joined the project was so I could gain feedback on how to improve my mapping. 

 

Let's not turn this thread into another mess where the mods are forced to lock it, please. We're here to map and have fun while doing so. Let's just forget this whole altercation existed, and work on improving our maps.