[Megawad] Tarnsman's Projectile Hell - Now on idgames

[Tarnsman]

Ah. In normal order I guess?

[Crusader No Regret]

Found a bug.  In E3M6, nearby where the yellow key is, grating on the west side can be walked through.  Falling into the abyss past it is a permastuck.  RC1

 

I've found myself getting stuck behind trees in E3M9 but I'm chalking that up to playing in GZDoom with infinite height actors off.

 

Barons appear to be immune to splash damage.  Not sure if that warrants a mention in the textfile though it leaves me with awkward choices for dealing with multiple barons at once.

 

E3M5: The spectres in a dark cave frustrated me enough to resort to IDBEHOLDL to not constantly get chewed up by them.  Generally, I've felt they're placed where there's enough light to make them out if alert but that one sore spot is so dark without resorting to cheats or cranking up the gamma correction.

 

On the last map of E3 and I'm finding myself getting into the set more.  There's not any one particular reason why.  Some combo of new enemies showing up in later episodes, themes and locales that happen to appeal to me more, having access to more of the arsenal, and my secret sense improving (though I don't usually find 100%) I guess.  Crafty enemy placement to be found that often appears overwhelming but can usually be handled with less risk with a smarter approach and less running around in panic waking up the whole map (and liberal saves to try different approaches).  Infighting I've learned to treat as a luxury yet I find I'm able to get away with it more in later maps. While risky, baiting infights can be very rewarding when successful.  Especially with Screams McGee since getting it riled up at other enemies leads to funny situations like two revenants trying to punch each other out.

 

Maybe not intentional but this set appeals to my usual playing style of taking out everything I can reach before moving on.  With how deadly any individual monster is (other than the humble zombieman which I don't think I've seen beyond the first map) leaving active monsters alive tends to be very dangerous.  Also feel like complimenting how some of the new enemies have habitats that they're rarely found outside of; the consistency adds to the immersion factor.  There's a lot to like here from the gimmick of E3M1, the setting of E3M3, or all the hidden alternate paths that allow skipping most of E3M7, if one can find them.

 

There's a part of me that wants to make a music add-on with Touhou tracks that match the map titles.  But I don't have the 30+ Touhou MP3s just lying around so I'll leave that to some other enterprising fan.

 

One blooper for the road: I died on the very first encounter of E3M4 without any kills.  Tried to retreat from the first ambush, found a cleverly placed baron instead, and two rockets took my marine from 200/200 to zero before I could blink, so to speak.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Crusader No Regret

[Tarnsman]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:29 AM, Crusader No Regret said:

I've found myself getting stuck behind trees in E3M9 but I'm chalking that up to playing in GZDoom with infinite height actors off.

 

If you have locations I can look into fixing this for the idgames release. Playing with infinite height actors off is intentional so getting stuck behind trees is a bug I'd like to fix.

[Catoptromancy]

Does this need testing of skills 2 and 3? I assume 4 is what most people play. I can work on max demo runs of each map and see how balanced the skills are. Max runs cover a lot of issues.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Catoptromancy

[Tarnsman]

More testing is always welcome. I'm sure there's still things to find. Even in something as tested as BTSX we didn't find a game breaking bug until 7 years after initial release :).

[kalensar]

This looks incredible. Trying this out asap.

[Catoptromancy]

While it does look very cool, it was acting kinda weird and I realized I was using wrong eternity version...and my computer cant run the required version. 

[Crusader No Regret]

OK, took some time scoping out permastucks in E3M9 more carefully.  There's an enclosed yard to the northeast with a soulsphere at one end and the only lift out on the other that has permastuck potential on both the east and the north sides.  It is possible to get wedged between trees and a wall if dropping down from the east end available very early.  The other one I found when trying to jump to the teleport to where the yellow key is falls a bit short.  Taking a big leap from there to the northwest is a trap; there's no items on those ledges and it's easy to get stuck descending from there.

 

i did find another one close by the red key.  Go a bit north from there and there's another location where it's possible to get wedged between a wall and tress.  Stuck by insanity as it's not the obvious route down.  This would be reachable even with infinite height actors on.

 

Now that I'm in episode 4, my feeling is that Driller damage may be overtuned.  Getting nicked by an individual shot seems to easily take off 60-80.  And given how quickly they fire...  I guess maybe what I thought is one hit may be 2-3 and that they're meant to be murder machines if they do catch someone unawares but geez.

[Catoptromancy]

Got OS updated and Eternity works again. Back to making demo packs and taking notes.

[Teo Slayer]

Basically, the place that Marisa likes to visit every time

 

[Teo Slayer]

I completed ep1 today. It was very amazing and fun but E1M8 was the same BS with Plutonia's Map11. But hey, it's kinda smart that E1M8 is called "Reach for the moon, Immortal Smoke" aka Mokou's theme from Touhou 8. I can't wait to get started with ep2 :D

[greenslimeriver]

Wad is very fun to play! However, I find the humping sound very loud and kinda distracting (even though it makes me laugh).

[Deadwing]

That intermission screen is sick as fuck!

I played a few levels and it's awesome, I loved especially the lighting (awesome realistic shadows) and sped up gameplay that reminded me a bit Struggle

[Catoptromancy]

E1M1 Initial gameplay 
 

Spoiler

 

Love MAP01, all I have seen so far. 35 more maps like this...will enjoy this greatly.

Skill 4 is perfect, fair and fast paced. Skill 3 is also balanced good.

Skill 2 is almost perfect. Collecting the rifle sooner made early fights easier, but also uses up more ammo. I really like keeping up the enemy count while boosting the health/armors, but swapping chaingunners for shotgunners means less ammo for current weapons. I had a good collection of shells, but ran out of ammo(maybe I missed a box). I already knew layout/placement and ran straight for the shotgun. Skill 2 needs a little ammo boost near start, maybe around that double chaingunner ledge, or just inside those pillars that open up right at start. I have found it very common in skill 2 to run out of ammo due to less pickups. When skill balancing other projects I like to leave a couple shells or clips if monsters dropping those items are changed, just enough so that skill 2 players can still get their ammo back.

Maybe skill 2 players were also suppose to ration ammo, but carefully using the pistol kind of play style makes skill 2 a good bit harder. A little spammy skill 2 feels like a good balance.

 

The pistol/rifle swap is rather fast. Maybe I just need to get used to it. I repeatedly had to press it, then press it again even faster to switch to pistol. I kept it on pistol as much as possible mostly to save ammo, but also not have to deal with the swapping. My keyboard is old and clunky/clicky.

 

Demo list will get updated as I finish more:

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/TPH-RC2/

 

I have never liked or played much gameplay mods, this has to be the first one I have really liked. I generally demo random idgames wads with -fast, but this mod keeps up the pace even better. The weapons are perfectly balanced with the monsters. The pace of gameplay is kept up without needing swarms of monsters, at least in the first couple maps I have played. Also, the quick switch on weapon 2 is nice, I finally got used to it.

 

E1M5 is a masterpiece. One of my favorite maps ever. 

 

Might need to stop trying to demo every run, just taking too much time. Still going for max scores on all skills. Once all maps are maxed and/or Eternity get a major release will go back and demo.

Still making nomo100s demos, with minimal interactions they might sync between revisions and are also quick to make.

 

Just noticed in the first post you mention using EE 4.03, but 4.02 is latest release. Is a repo build required? I wanted to use latest release to help ensure my demos were compatible. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Catoptromancy

[Tarnsman]

11 hours ago, Catoptromancy said:

Just noticed in the first post you mention using EE 4.03, but 4.02 is latest release. Is a repo build required? I wanted to use latest release to help ensure my demos were compatible. 

 

4.03 is a repo build but necessary for certain items to work properly.

[Catoptromancy]

Episode 1 Playtesting

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This post will no longer be edited.

 

E1M1: A bit low on -skill 2 ammo.

Spoiler

Skill 2 replaces chaingunners with shotgunners. Since ammo is tight and shotgun is obtained later in map, player will run out of bullets. Each chaingunner replaced is 10 less bullets for player. A solution would be to move shotgun closer in -skill 2 or to add a few bullets.

 

E1M2-E1M5 are perfectly skill balanced.

 

E1M5: Sequence break, can walk around illusio-pits to play most of map without fighting.

Spoiler

E1M5: Jump isnt too hard to learn with some practice. Landing this jump leads to many softlocks and illusio-pits. Demo is less than 2 minutes. I accidentally found this, was just hoping it was a shortcut to somewhere else. Sequence break is probably exit-able as well, I managed to get pretty far past blue doors before dying. A -nomonsters run got to exit using this route.

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/TPH-RC2/bugdemos/tph-rc2-e1m5-skill4-softlock-ee_4.03_e029a20-cato.lmp

 

Screenshot is exact angle that can land jump.

E1M5: Softlock at big exit lift. 

Spoiler

First noticed this during -skill 2(last) run. I know this lift has worked before. I usually kill everything at exit, then come back down for the 100%. Lift has worked multiple times before. Tried in skills 2,3, and 4 with -nomonsters and it still wont lower. Updated to latest Eternity repo today, but I have also maxed skill 3 afterwards. Eureka just shows mostly "unknown" linedefs. I have no idea.

 

Reproduce: go to exit door area, the go back down lift. It wont lower again making player blocked from exit. 

E1M6: Odd skill ramp in -skill 2 and 3. No real recommendations and is probably fine.

Spoiler

I try to use same routing between skills to more accurately compare them. Skill 3 is generally a faster and safer run, but I try to play identically to skill 4. In -skill 3 on E1M6 I was downright reckless but managed to survive.

In -skill 2, I use same route but play recklessly and fast. -skill 2 had the most odd ramping between start and end of map. The start I felt was actually too easy, super easy. When I skill balance I like to preserve the "feel" of the fight, so the missing first arachnotron and not one revenant in minigun trap were a surprise. By the end of the map I actually felt it was getting too hard. The bluekey crate/stairs area teleport had both revenants and same/similar flood of monsters as skill 3 minus rocket baron.

E1M7: Two lava sectors not damaging.

Spoiler

 

E1M7: Shadow on this little patch just kinda sticks out. All other shadows in area go in same direction.

Spoiler

E1M7: Stair texturing?

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These types of stairs in a few different areas sometimes have a full step, and sometimes hard edge.

E1M7: Skills 2 and 3

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Skill 3 up to blue key area seems barely easier than skill 4. I think there was only 1 less chaingunner and spider at start. Moving green armor closer just makes it getting it couple seconds faster. 

Skill 2 compared to skill 3 only seems to have blue armor at spawn. With all the projectiles and crate hitscanners the blue armor just delays the inevitable a little longer. 

Possible suggestion for skill 2 and 3, not just weaker, but removed *some/a few* distant snipers or removed mid-area monsters. The first spider and crate revenant are centerpieces and should stay in all skills, but player can actually focus on them instead of having to dodge projectiles from every angle. The crate chaingunner and a distant imp or two(from different ledges) are good candidates. 

Also also all skills have three chaingunner snipers on ledge over bluekey area. 

 

The yellow key area seems fine. While skill 2 and 3 seem identical, skill 2 players should have a recent megasphere. There are also no distant snipers. 

 

While I do like adding powerups/armor instead of nerfing monsters for lower skills, sometimes the monsters do need toned down a bit. 

E1M8: All skills MAX impossible. Overlapping archies stuck in closet.

Spoiler

E1M8: Can straferun over exit line. Maybe more exit lines?

Spoiler

E1M8: General comments

Spoiler

A normal speed exit was nicely difficult compared to the other maps. A very awesome boss map. Need to use fancy footing precise speed routes to pull it off.

 

The difficulty on MAX runs over other maps is way out there. 

I did find a ridiculous strategy in kicking all the archies while hiding in secret crate area, though that was still pretty rough trying to keep archies out and not die. But wound up learning precise speed routes to gather ammo and exit area rockets, and then just sit at yellow key ledge and wait a couple minutes in the corner. Once all archies have spawned, I rocket the ones on the higher ledges. Then had to run across the heads of the swarm gathered under the yellow key ledge. Then there was a safe area to take out the rest.

 

It took me lots of save spamming to manage that strategy. Will take considerable amount of time to get a -skill 4 max demo.

E1M8: Skills 2 and 3

Spoiler

Skill 3 is nicely easier in the normal speed run, archies removed in main areas are good measure. The MAX run is just as brutal as skill 4 though. 7 fewer archies in total map, and several were removed from "speed run" area mean the MAX run is just as hard as skill 4.

Skill 2 has just 5 less archies than skill 3. The speed run feels identical to skill 3, except for 1 teleporting archie right before red door is opened. 

 

I know map theme is being quick to avoid wave of archies, but MAX players still gotta kill them all. The lower skills need a smaller wave than skill 4.

E1M9: Impassible line?

Spoiler

E1M9: Stuck chaingunner is awake and making noise but wont move. Hunted him down by sound.

Spoiler

E1M9: Sky scale? All other skies in E1 can freelook. Might need some messing with tex1.

Spoiler

E1M9: Skills 2 and 3

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The 16 revenant trap at rocket launcher has no skill difference between skills 3 and 4. Skill 2 only removes 4 revenants. This area is quite brutal, skill 3 should probably play like skill 2 and skill 2 be tagged with a 1 fewer revenant per closet. 

The 4 cacos at shotgun are not there at all in -skill 2. Trying to preserve the "feel" of the fight, maybe a caco or two would be nice.

The megasphere in -skill 3 has no barons at all. I kinda feel like one baron would be nice. There is a nice amount of distance and baron surprise is worthy after picking up a sphere. One baron would be easier than 3 revenants. 

In -skill 2 and 3 the red key general area has not much health compared to amount of hidden chaingunners, maybe a couple stims here and there. There is also little difference between skills, so a bit more health might do.

Right after red key door, those revenants have no skill differences. 

The light amp googles are not tagged for skill 2, nor anything surrounding it.

Not sure sr-40 should be required for a max runs, to get those light amp googles. I tried a few times just running, maybe why they are not tagged on skill 2.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Catoptromancy

[Catoptromancy]

Episode 2 Playtesting

Spoiler

 

This post will no longer be edited.

 

Maps with no Coop Starts, All episodes:

Spoiler

Over half the maps have coop starts, figured they should be consistent. 

My doggy was missing while making a nomo demo, realized that must mean there is no player 2 start. So ran wadspy to check out the others.

 

E1M9

E2M3

E2M4

E2M7

E2M8

E3M3

E3M5

E3M8

E3M9

E4M1

E4M2

E4M5 has 3 player starts? Maybe multiple other starts?

E4M6

E4M7

E4M8 has 3 player starts

E2M2: A few trees placement:

Spoiler

The tree on the left is close enough to wall to allow walking behind but only from one side, awkwardly traps player. The tree(stump) on the right is a tiny bit too close to the tree on the left, it allows movement but would help player if it they were spaced out a tiny bit. The middle tree can be run behind and off ledge, possible sequence break for early rockets.

 

I had a rather awkward fight with a swarm of cacos on this ledge. The plants are just barely out of the way to not entirely stop trying to fight here. Map layout funnels several cacos into this general area, so this ledge becomes the battle ground once player leaves shotgun area. A slight reshuffling of the foliage would allow this ledge to flow better for fighting.

E2M3: Minor Visual Nitpicks

Spoiler

Texture off by a pixel.

 

Not offset

 

Moving tree back a little would look a little better.

 

An even less clipping tree.

Double clip at backpack ledge.

E2M3: Exit door doesnt close, closes in all other maps so far.

E2M3: Skill 2 a bit low on health. A good handful of health bonuses throughout the map would lighten it up.

E2M4: Exit door not closing, maybe a new pattern?

E2M4: Sleeping Revenant sits right here, doesnt wake up with the rest of the trap.

Spoiler

E2M4: Secret trigger here too small. Max playthrough breaking.

Spoiler

I was on this crate several times, only found out it was a secret in map editor. All other secret crates in game cause instant secret activation. Player can jump on this crate several times without activating secret, very easy to assume its not a secret.

 

Knowing secret was already here, I had to dance around a few times to activate it.

E2M4: Exit window?

Spoiler

I thought this was a really cool effect. Players enter exit area and see window appears, players that teleport out of room and come back could see the fancy window from the outside. But it seems its only visible in coop or clipping. There are a series of carefully flagged linedefs making sure player never sees this?

 

 

E2M4: Skill 3 pretty rough

Spoiler

Skill 3 had a small amount of bonuses and a slight adjustment in monsters. Felt very rough for skill 3, barely easier than skill 4 in most areas of map. Once that blue armor is gone from start, its almost identical to skill 4. I even ran out of ammo in -skill 3, I was a little more generous with minigun in blue key area so was noticeably very low on ammo rest of map. 

 

Skill 2 had barely fewer monsters than skill 3, but lots of good powerups. I felt skill 2 was ok with that variety of power ups.

E2M5: Cheesy strats, Skill 2 harder than 3.

Spoiler

An intense 20 seconds in the first minute and lots of circle strafing make this map super easy, compared to most ive played so far. Just rush after grabbing minigun, then only aim for hit scanners while running full speed all the way to the end of the top, then proceed to circle strafe in middle. The lower skills are a bit easier, but the main difference between skill levels isnt about player skill or fighting, but how long player needs to circle strafe.

 

Using this strat makes skill 2 harder than skill 3 as the monster count isnt evenly shifted between monster types. Skill 2 has many less cacos and circle strafing is basically free on any skill level, so skill 2 player will have a lot more plasma monsters when the infighting is over. Possible solution, is to remove a caco per plasma monster so they are evenly removed. 

 

Skill 3 is similar to 4 just with more powerups, which works ok. While Skill 2 adjusts monster type count, changing the dynamics of the infighting swarm.

 

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/TPH-RC2/tph-rc2-e2m5-skill4-max-ee_4.03_91d99332-cato.lmp

E2M5 exit door does not close, E2M6 exit does close? 

E2M6: Leaky vertex, minor visual.

Spoiler

Nodebuilder stuff. Can probably just move vertex a unit or two. Maybe add a vertex near the flagpole to break line shorter. 

Not sure its even worth fixing, since it blends into floor unless monsters die on it. 

 

E2M6: Skill 2 boosts dont last long.

Spoiler

The megazerk was a nice touch for skill 2, but after its gone and the next wave is activated the fights go back to pretty brutal quickly. In skill 2 the gameplay/wave between blue key and next key, could be toned down a bit.

E2M7: Softlock right after red key door.

Spoiler

E2M7: Nukeage, no damage.

Spoiler

E2M7: Missing texture oddities.

Spoiler

I completely forget where the missing texture swap happened. Starting a fresh pistol start, BIGDOOR7 is printed in console. At some point in map, BAADFOOD becomes the missing texture, if loaded from a savegame. 

 

I have not been paying attention to console much, hopefully didnt miss any previous maps.

 

 

Maybe related. All the other maps had flawless texturing in the background, this one seemed out of place.

E2M7: Minor Visuals

Spoiler

Crane arm is cut off by sky. Maybe sky is lowered there for a reason?

 

2 lines on automap seem flagged visible.

E2M7: Softlock behind switch.

Spoiler

I got stuck here for over 3 minutes. I tried to glide many angles, but there is a decoration right there. Clipping to get unstuck shot me like 800 units across map, shot out through the narrow part.

 

E2M7: Skills 2 and 3

Spoiler

I noticed most encounters are basically the same as -skill 4. Most of the skill tagged monsters are in the teleporting waves. Not sure I can say anything specific there are so many areas that play identically to -skill 4. Skill 2 is even harder than usual because there are no big powerups just for skill 2 either, that could help soften up the type of monsters. 

E2M8: Skills 2 and 3

Spoiler

Skill 3 is basically as hard skill 4. The blue armor just takes a slight edge off at the start of the main fight. Skill 2's powerups were great. The invisibility was super helpful, but once it wears off the fight is nearly as hard as skill 4. 

 

Skill 2 has an invulnerability sphere at the end, hidden behind a swarm of monsters. I found it when almost all were dead anyway. If a skill 2 player needs to fight that many archies, might be good to swap the megasphere from teleport at bluekey switch to the invulnerability.

 

A big factor in both skills is the roaming arachnotrons. A few less in skill 3 and a bit more in skill 2 would greatly help player maneuver, especially the one blocking the minigun. 

E2M8: Sky Exit

Spoiler

The sky on the floor is below player view height, so player can see the tiled edge. The ceiling right above it requires player looking up hard, so that the sky padding is quite visible. Both floor and ceiling can have a flawless looking sky with texture1 adjustments. Sky is used in another map, so it requires its own texture1 entry but reusing the same patch. This is a very narrow case that just feels like it would work.

 

Involves using 2 sky patches tiled in texture1 and forcing the seam to be where player usually can see it clearly, but since only the extremes are visible that seam will be hidden. Ceiling will display top patch, while floor will display bottom patch.

 

Ill mess around with this later and see what I can do.

E2M9: Skill 2 and 3 not implemented.

E2M9: Automap name cutoff

Spoiler

Not sure if something can be done in wad or port to /newline long names.

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Catoptromancy

[Crusader No Regret]

No medikits in exit rooms of E4M5 and E4M9.  This doesn't appear intentional.  (checked both HMP and UV and is probably the case for HNTR)  If I find any more possible bugs, I'll edit them in here.  Not that it's very likely because...

 

Reached the last map but my nerves aren't ready for it just yet.  E4M4 has some very brutal setups that nearly caused me to resort to cheats.  I'm still not sure how to handle E4M6 blue key setup without making use of a helpful secret.  The map got irritating to navigate due to all the damaging floors.  E4M7 baron shooting gallery was a slog to take out due to their splash damage immunity; could it be that one is not intended to kill them all?

 

Found the E4 secret map and appreciate the unconventional setup.  Correctly worked out the gimmick of the red key area.  Exited with 55% kills and felt no need to bother with 100%.

[Catoptromancy]

E1M9 Sky Fixing Rant:

Spoiler

 

Latest Eternity commit fixes skies. The sky no longer tiles, but pads similar color. E1M9 still requires tons of padding, replacing the hard tiled edge. Ive seen something similar trying to force good skies in vanilla heretic, offsetting the sky down for a better looking sky forces tiling or padding much lower than expected. For desired effect might need to modify the sky patch directly. 

 

I am not even looking up all way, lowered for reference points. Over half the screen is solid color.

 

This is ledge to jump to light amp.

 

Alright I have been messing around with tex1.

I have made blasphemer tile just the top 1/3 of the sky before, in vanilla even. Not sure if it will look good here, the sky1b doesnt seem to fit right. This blasphemer sky has hidden mountains, similar to tph e1m9.

 

 

The TPH sky is 1/2 mountains, while blasphemer sky was 1/4th. TPH sky near top doesnt tile nearly as well, cant get a good forced tiling by doubling sky patch with height offset differences. I can probably keep messing with tex1 until something looks good, but might take awhile. The sky seems offset down to hide the mountains, but that cuts off freelook-ability. Maybe just not meant for freelooking at all, but is inconsistent with other maps in episode.

 

 

Yet another edit: I cropped the mountains on the bottom mostly off, then scaled image to 1024x200, adjusted tex1 for new size and its not bad. It sits almost properly(a little high, easy fix), fixes freelook situation but it does look overly scaled though. It seems graphic was offset to cut mountains off the bottom, but then the view with freelook is cut off. The source graphic is rough to work with trying to expand the view range using half the graphic.

 

 

Skill Balancing Comments:

Spoiler

So I am halfway done. I have been adjusting my methods trying to find something most effective and less time consuming. Realized recently should have asked what the skill levels are intended to accomplish. Are they suppose to be just an easier version of the higher skill or are they there to allow more people the ability to play.

 

I am trying to science the art of playtesting. In future maps I will definitely ask mapper what the skill levels are intended to accomplish. In episode 1 I largely felt each skill was suppose to allow a larger playerbase. By the end of episode 2 I started to think that each skill is just an easier -skill 4. Episode 2 had fewer monster swaps, and each skill had less range of difficulty.

 

Much of my skill balancing philosophy comes from freedoom. Being an iwad it needs to cater to the widest audience. Skill 2 should be super easy only challenging the most casual gamers, while skill 4 should challenge doom veterans. I know TPH has a different target audience, but reading through the thread it seemed like the lower skills should have an even wider range difficultly.

 

Those tiny details:

Spoiler

I know I have been hypercritical on super minor stuff. I really want this project to be as  flawless as possible and finding a tiny fixable detail felt worth reporting. Maxing all stats in skills 2-4 allows me a chance to see a lot of the map in fine detail.  I have been adding small minor visual reports and other nonsense oddities. All those reports are things that can be changed and look just a tiny bit better, even if noone else ever notices. Some things I would have never have reported, but they were not consistent with other maps.

 

General Comments:

Spoiler

These have been some of my favorite all-time maps, art, and my style of gameplay. Almost every new map feels like an impossible challenge for the first few/dozen deaths. I test out various rush/hide strategies to see what happens and eventually manage some kind of routable strategy. My usual play style is to demo random /idgames maps on -fast by default, only turning -fast off if deemed near impossible or wad is more than a couple maps. This mod plays even better than that. The player is also given a quicker advantage with the weapon selection and swap making the gameplay much more balanced than the basic -fast. 

 

Waiting for a TPH2.

 

Method fine tuning:

Spoiler

First playthrough on a map is skill 4 to exit room. I'll check 100/100/100 stats on hud in exit room. Save game then "nuke" in console to see if anything still alive. If items/secrets missing I'll backtrack them down. Once I have scoured map and still have missing secrets might start clipping or just open an editor. Once 100/100/100 is confirmed, I make a -nomonsters 100 secrets demo. Sometimes a few to quicken demo.

 

Now I play skill 4 again. Using minimal saves or demos. Already familiar with map I use certain route. Then repeat route in skills 3 and then 2. All playthroughs aim for 100/100/100.

 

Playing all three skills back-to-back on a familiar map really help differenciant between them.

 

Hoping for some feedback on how I am playtesting. Trying to get better at what I am doing. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Catoptromancy

[Catoptromancy]

Playtesting Done! 

This post will no longer be edited.

 

Using TPH-RCF.

Spoiler

E4M6: Archvile semi-softlock

Spoiler

 

Archvile will probably still be alive so player can suicide.

 

E4M6: Non-damaging lava

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E4M6: Skill 3 cannot MAX, unflagged teleporter.

Spoiler

The teleport linedef in this closet with sector tag 69 looks like a secondary teleport so that some drillers randomly go near the exits. I have never seen a driller near the exits. It looks like drillers are too wide to trigger that linedef.

 

So the main issue was that the first teleport is not tagged for skill 3 and drillers are too big to go over the second linedef.

E4M6: Skill 2

Spoiler

 

A bit rough. Similar to later episode 2 maps, some longer encounters needed the same strategy as skill 4.

 

The arachnotron wall by blue key was perfectly balanced, while needing same strategy did not need to be so precise with movement.

 

E4M7: Skill 4 Max Ammo

Spoiler

Trying to MAX map gets very low on ammo. I ran out of ammo my first playthrough with one hidden archvile sniper left, mostly because I used up the best ammo for sniping lots of archviles. Needs planning on saving all bullets until the end. 

E4M7: Skill 3 has stuck monsters

Spoiler

Right at the start.

E4M7: Skill balance is perfect

 

E4M8: A couple Softlocks

Spoiler

This was unintentional. While archie can no longer attack, it eventually resurrects a very distant chaingunner.

 

This one I ran off unintentionally and also got a revenant ball boost into the non-damaging lava. 

 

This one is pretty forced. Took two tries but I perfectly angled to go over. Angle in screenshot SR-50s into a softlock. 

 

E4M8: Mistexture

Spoiler

E4M8: Boss never dies, max impossible kinda.

Spoiler

I noticed that I was always missing one kill. Then I noticed the bosses body bleeds and comes back to life if you kick it. Maybe the bosses first "death" can count towards kill counter. 

E4M8: Skill balance ok.

 

E4M9: Max Ammo

Spoiler

On my first skill 4 playthrough I ran out of ammo as the last unkickable archvile died. I guess map is possible to MAX, but need to kick almost everything possible. On second playthrough used archvile luring strategies that saved enough ammo to not need to kick the revenants. Very tight on ammo but plays good.

 

Skill 3 played very similar, just a lot less kicking archviles so was nicely balanced. I still had to kick the last two revenants to max, ran out of ammo. 

 

Skill 2 was pretty fun. Basically the same thing but without needing to kick any archviles. Balances out pretty good.

E4M9: Skill 3 missing rifle

Spoiler

Skill 3 is missing the rifle. It was swapped with an early rocket launcher which was quite useful, but rifle doesnt show up later either. Trying to max means going through an entire backpacks worth of ammo with the pistol. Maybe a rifle by the exit door so players can just leave, or have a faster weapon to finish killing everything. 

E4M9: Non-impassible fence.

Spoiler

E4M9: Tex Alignment

Spoiler

 

E4M9: Hypothetical softlock

Spoiler

There are enough archies and health to jump into hole. Floor lowering triggers in hole would prevent softlock, but might be useful/abusable while speedrunning. 

 

 

 

 

 

Older reports for E3M1-E4M5 using TPH-RC2.

Spoiler

 

Episode 3 - Episode 4

 

E3M1-E4M5: Done

 

 

E3M1: A fuzzy chased me into normal area.

Spoiler

In the red area near end I ran out of ammo. Ran through without killing off the fuzzies and one managed to find me in main area. In skill 4. 

 

Not entirely sure if it left red area, or I missed one from another area. Ill look around when im done with the other maps to see how it got there.

 

E3M2: Missing texture when blocking lift.

Spoiler

Both sides of lift, secret backpack near start.

 

E3M3: Minor Visuals

Spoiler

Monster teleport lines seem like they shouldnt be visible. The green lines on bottom left and top right.

 

This kind of looks like Chocolate related column drawing, or texture1 offsets. Several places in same general area look like this.

 

Wood panel on one side, star-something on the other. Need to clip to see these though.

 

I feel like this was placed here just for me to find.

E3M3: Minor Sequence break

Spoiler

Can sr-50 over this easy. Saves speed runners a few seconds. Does not make any softlocks or break anything. Can probably ignore.

 

E3M3: Skills 2 and 3

Spoiler

Skill 3 felt and played identical to skill 4, except for 2 chaingunners near start. While some monsters were toned down, they were in situations were it didnt really change strategy or skill required to beat area.

 

Skill 2 was much better but was still brutal in a few areas. The open main area near start is full of the same projectile snipers. Many encounters felt nice though. Skill 2 was also missing the big power ups that other maps had. The megasphere was nice, but swaps with blue armor so its doesnt have that big powerup boost affect.

E3M4: Unimpassible fence.

Spoiler

E3M4: Softlock in crates.

Spoiler

E3M4: Minigun placement all skills.

Spoiler

I noticed minigun is on a platform that eventually gets blocked after going through blue doors. I guess I dont think its a good idea player can never grab weapon again. It is fine if intentional.

E3M4: Skills 2 and 3

Spoiler

In both skills some dense monster encounters were identical to skill 4.

In skill 3 some monsters in key areas were toned down just right, like those tower revenants. That single revenant changed strategy for area slightly in the right way.

 

In skill 2 the monster swaps felt good, no extra powerups or health though, except right before last fight.
The monster situation in both skills would feel more balanced with a bit more health in the denser encounters.

E3M5: Exit door does not open from inside. 

E3M5: Mistexture

Spoiler

E3M5: General Comments Updated

Spoiler

This is my new favorite map. I have been routing a nomo100s route for 2 days and I am still getting lost.  There is so much replay value with every route. Trying to nail a single route for skill testing, but after I am done with all the other maps will definitely demo this and work on the routes. I was pretty sure there was some kind of sequence break with the layout, but it just works. Have not tried archvile jumps yet, but will take up even more time. 

 

I love the archvile jumps. The setup for two in a map with a secret exit, while having the path of the secret exit elsewhere is brilliant. Runners will still need to play entire map depending on whether they need 100% secrets or secret exit. 

 

E3M5: Sound travel wakes up monsters too soon?

Spoiler

Constant kicking in this area woke up some rocket barons and revenants on a much higher ledge above. The actual encounter with them comes much later, or actually first depending on route. 

E3M5: Lift bonk missing texture.

Spoiler

E3M5: Substantial sequence break, does not really break anything.

Spoiler

The skip requires 2 archvile jumps. The player opens the very nearby archvile closet while grabbing a megasphere, making jump very possible. Bypasses large areas, nullifies secret exit route. I dont think anything is actually broken and creates no softlocks. It is also not easy. I tested using -nomonsters and summoning an archvile in area that archvile normally is. Player can make sure not to kill other monsters in area to lure archvile, so the jump can be more focused on. 

 

2 big steps right to blue key area.

E3M5: Another substantial sequence break. Directly after first one.

Spoiler

The setup for these feels intentional now. The first one posted above is tricky to get 2 clean archvile jumps, while given a megasphere. This one is a single jump directly after given a soulsphere. The route using both jumps is super fast, can skip like 2/3rds of the map. First jump posted above takes player directly to blue key area. The second is a jump just under blue key that leads straight to red key. Assuming player is not trying to get secret exit, these are very viable.

 

Can play the lead up to red key backwards pretty far. Going backwards has awkward monster placement and closed areas that open on the other side of the walls, but no softlocks since a return teleport is opened by approaching.

 

Screenshot is mid-archvile jump over ledge just under blue key. 

E3M5: Sleepy Caco

Spoiler

I was down to clipping and looking for lost souls in the walls for that last kill, iddt and checking all things on the map for signs of life kind of checks. This caco totally caught me off guard. A little investigation found it only comes out of hiding if player moves into a small area that has no items and no reason to be there.

 

Caco is selected with yellow box on left edge. Area it can see player and wake up is the purple camera arrow in middle of screen. Maybe place a small item in area? A single health or armor bonus would not disturb gameplay and would force caco awake by luring player to item.

E3M5: Skills 2 and 3

Spoiler

I guess the pattern is the same as other maps. Skill 3 has a little more bonuses and a few less monsters than skill 4, but it is basically just as hard. While skill 2 is noticeably easier in key encounters, while other encounters are nearly as hard as skill 4 but with a bit more powerups.

 

E3 has been pretty consistent, so I guess these are fine.

E3M6: Minor Visuals

Spoiler

Invisible exit room.

 

Lines in void, monster closet.

 

 

E3M6: Softlock, non-impassible fence.

Spoiler

E3M6: Skill 2 and 3

Spoiler

Skill 3 was pretty good until yellow key area. After power up runs out in yellow key area, it's brutal. After getting yellow key the rest of map is also pretty good.

 

Skill 2 felt nice all the way through.

E3M7: Possible Sequence Break

Spoiler

This jump is quite hard and needs precise alignment. It is hard enough it clearly is not intended. It is even harder than the E1M5 jump, as it also requires some sort of doomy wall boost that helps me slide to the other side. 

 

I am still working on my first play through, no idea if this breaks anything yet. Will update once I figure out the routing on this map. 

 

Warp angle is exact, but the 283 has a couple semi-angles in-game. 

 

E3M7: Sort of Sequence Break

Spoiler

Since only red key is needed to exit and there are no softlocks I guess this does not really break anything. Can easily jump to yellow key bypassing the hidden switch, secret entrance to area that opens with switch, and an entire few small sections that seem like their only purpose is to open the path to the yellow key.

 

I am still routing this masterpiece of a map and yellow key seems like it only opens shortcuts. Maybe I can still find something it breaks. 

 

Am I spoiling too much? Any players reading this stuff can easily lose the sense of adventure. 

 

E3M7: Minor Visuals

Spoiler

Mistexture. This side doesnt match other side of platform.

 

 

E3M7: Missing texture in inescapable pit.

Spoiler

E3M7: Eternity Archvile Machine

Spoiler

I do not think standing still and just spamming HE shells at the archviles alternating between left and right sides was the intended strategy. Entirely related to splash damage issue I posted below.

 

Lots of archies attacking each other and themselves as they get hurt by their own splash damage trying to target the HE shell explosions.

 

E3M7: Extra blue key in void.

Spoiler

E3M7: Skills 2 and 3

Spoiler

Skill 3 was a tiny bit easier than skill 4, a few key removed monsters toned down some fights. Skill 2 was nice, the powerups really helped without nerfing too much. 

E3M8: Minor Visuals

Spoiler

Ive probably missed a few monster teleport lines being visible in other maps. This one is in void even.

E3M8: Perfectly skill balanced. Wide range of difficulties supported.

E3M8: No backtracking.

Spoiler

This is the first map I found that I could not backtrack, unless I missed some hidden teleport or lift. My skill 3 run I found out a chaingun spider is a slow teleporter and must have missed him. In my skill 2 run, forgot I skipped a sphere for later. Being able to backtrack at exit to max a run has been consistent entire wad until now. 

E3M9: Tree Softlocks

Spoiler

So there are many tree softlocks. The archviles multiply them. Im just going to put them in a separate directory and link them. I will try to minimize duplicate positions. 

 

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/TPH-RC2/screenshots/treelocks/

 

Actually there are just too many to accurately post. I will recheck them next RC.

E3M9: Archvile jump a ledge too high.

Spoiler

This top ledge feels like it should be surrounded by impassible lines. Being up here makes sky look awkward along wall and off other things. There is still a pointless ledge to be on just below this one that player can still archvile jump to. 

 

E3M9: Perfectly skill balanced. Noticeably different strategies required. 

E3M9: Archvile exit jump, massive skip. 45 second demo to exit.

Spoiler

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/TPH-RC2/bugdemos/tph-rc2-e3m9-jump-cato.lmp

 

Use archvile to defenestrate yourself then run across pillars to get softlocked with the exit switch.

 

 

Episode 4:

Spoiler

E4M1: Oddly impassible fence

These fences seem set back too far or impassible line is too close...feels awkward. Also by the yellow key area.

 

E4M1: Sky bits are too low.

In a distance and at player height the entire top lighted part is totally cutoff. Looks like some sky sectors are too low. 

 

E4M2: Softlock in gap.

 

E4M2: Mistexture

 

E4M2: Texture alignment

 

E4M2: Patch of light

This ledge sticks out weirdly. Light does line up on edge, but itself casts no shadow and nothing on lighted side is light. The stairs lighting fits more seamlessly without bright ledge. It seems like two lighting schemes were being used and this ledge got missed when converting.

 

E4M2: Good skill balance. Just enough of everything.

 

E4M3: Non-damaging lava

 

E4M3: Mistexture

 

E4M3: Texture Alignment

I wasnt going to post alignments in out of bounds area anymore...but here I am.

 

E4M3: Monsters wandering into teleports.

Does not seem like this should happen. Easy block monster line on/near teleporter. The manc gets telefragged being stuck in doorway. 

 

E4M3: Perfectly skill balanced.

Almost too much but is fine. Nice extra powerups, monster swaps/removals across all skills. 

 

E4M4: No Backtracking

Cannot go back to previous areas once reaching exit. 

 

E4M4: Texture offsets

 

E4M4: This Solid floor is damaging

 

E4M4: Monsters delayed teleport

I peeked at Eureka and everything looks fine, I thought Skill 3 was being super generous with weapon in secret having no monsters teleport in. Then the main spawn at start in middle of map eventually had a few monsters randomly teleport in. The monsters get blocked from flooding the main spawn at start because a revenant would get stuck in ceiling, blocking teleport. I checked IDDT and monsters indeed eventually spawned in both secret squares for minigun. I played map twice in -skill 4 to 100% and this did not happen in -skill 4 at all. No idea.

Screenshot is barricade of monsters, a revenant blocked teleport so they pack in and slowly teleport to start. 

 

EDIT: I go straight to both secrets without firing, so closet monsters do not wake up. 

 

E4M4: Skills 2 and 3

Skill 3 had a few noticeable places it was easier, but still felt pretty rough compare to the rest of Episode 4. Skill 2 is closer to the balance of other skill 2s in the episode.

 

E4M5: Mistexture

 

E4M5: Skill 2 empty secret. 

Skill 2 has plenty of ammo and is nicely balanced without minigun, but empty secret is no fun. Even a useless item would be cool here.

 

E4M5: Perfectly balanced in all skills.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Catoptromancy

[Tarnsman]

Thank you for the thorough testing, it's much appreciated, particularly the niche skip stuff and what it breaks.

[printz]

The next Eternity release (and current development builds) have the look range extended to 45 degrees. I see right now that your space sky still assumes that the view pitch extends only to 32 degrees as in Heretic, so it gets padded with a generic blackness above the look threshold. See my Eternity thread on sky rendering improvements on what you can do about it: either shift the sky in UMAPINFO (or sky-transfer offset) up to cover the remaining range (recommended), or limit the view pitch back to 32 degrees (not recommended).

[Catoptromancy]

Rocket Shotgun's splash damage becomes an archvile target. If you hit archvile not hard enough to trigger pain state, it will target its fire toward direction of splash damage. Shooting close enough to archvile to make it slightly slide also makes it redirect attacks toward area you shot in. Archvile attacks are normal in gzdoom.

 

I think the HE shells blast are the target because the achvile's target seems to no longer exist and the archvile will attack player normally when it does its next attack. Can also see the archvile attack graphics are directly centered over the shotgun blast, sometimes after blast as faded. The timing is very flexible, this is easy to reproduce. 

 

 

Quick test map

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/TPH-RC2/archtest.wad

 

Mashing the screenshot key, you can see which frames trigger archvile to change targets. 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Catoptromancy

[Egg Boy]

Finally got around to playing this. Played in Eternity on HNTR, didn't find any major bugs that weren't already mentioned. Overall, had a great time. Each episode having 2 (or more) themes really kept things fresh throughout. I feel a bit conflicted about episode 3, had some of my favorite maps in it and a few interesting gimmicks, but the latter half of the episode seemed to drag with a series of pretty large maps without any sort of breather. On the other hand Episodes 2 and 4 are standouts to me, interesting themes that aren't particularly common, and great gameplay throughout. Excellent map set, my final score is 1/10

[Catoptromancy]

E3M5, E3M7, and E3M9 are easily my favorite doom maps. A long time ago I started to make a modern version of 21ratmaz. Much like all my other maps, I did a bunch of work but never really felt like I got layouts right. E3M9 is a modern 21ratmaz done perfectly. It has inspired me to fire up an editor and move some more vertexes around. Giant sprawling maps with tons of routing options are my favorites and what I try to do for my maps. 

 

Report on reporting: 

Spoiler

 

Just realized I probably should have kept this amount of bug reports in PMs or something else instead of spamming the forum. Finalizing E3M7 will be delayed because nomo100s runs are actually playable on a phone. Dodging monsters isnt easy on a touchscreen. Can maximize productivity by saving the routing parts while I cant be on a computer. 

 

Episode 4 reports are better formatted(maybe) and put at the end of the episode 3 post. Top of episode 3 and 4 post will show progress and which maps are left.

 

My main focus was skill balance, but I still felt I could do better. Maps I considered nicely balanced I may not have even posted about. Just started playing E4M4, but I felt skill balance in certain E2 and E3 maps narrowed considerably. Since the balance narrowing was kinda linear and then consistent for more than a few maps, It felt intentional. Now halfway through E4, I noticed E4 has a much wider range of balancing. In the future I will make sure to always comment on skill balance, even if map requires no comments. 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Catoptromancy

[Tarnsman]

RCF: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lagizl0h5vmutza/TPH-RCF.zip?dl=0

 

General:
Tweaks for more consistent balancing between skills 2 and 3.
Fixed super secret item being counted as items for maxing in EE.

Fixed various soft locks, mostly tree clusters you could wedge yourself into if you tried hard enough. I'm sure there's still more in E3M9.

E1M8:
Added secrets to make it more viable for those who want to stick around and kill the wave of 40 viles intended to be the lose condition.

 

E3M6:

Added easier skill level megazerks to higher skills so map plays quicker in general for better pacing sandwiched in between two larger maps in E3M5 and E3M7.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Tarnsman

[DaxxAlabel]

Nevermind I'm an idiot. Problem was on my end.

[princetontiger]

Wow!! Played through the first couple maps (E1M1, E1M2), and I'm blown away. Tons of fun.

[Rudolph]

I have started playing this with Freedoom: given the use of custom sprites, I was not expecting the mapset to contain vanilla Doom enemy sprites! However, I am a bit bothered by the fact that a megawad titled "Projectile Hell" seems to feature a lot of hitscanners... :(

 

 

[Catoptromancy]

Finalized my reporting post a couple posts above. 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2405199

 

Last couple things, tree softlocks and such:

Spoiler

EDIT: Done with everything. No more editing posts.

 

TPH-RCF Tree softlocks: Done

Spoiler

Rechecking every possible area a player can actually reach, including angles of archvile jumps.

 

Another directory full of screenshots. I think I found them all, meaning there are at least two left. 

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/TPH-RC2/screenshots/tph-rcf_treelocks/

 

Tree Diameter

Spoiler

Was thinking the trees physical diameter seems large. Player is stopped a good distance from tree trunk. If trees had a smaller diameter, would probably fix the softlocks. Might cause more softlocks in areas that player couldnt fall through tree tops. Would need to rearrange a lot more, but have it easier to not get blocked. Not sure what else it would break. 

 

 

Nice maps and mods. Going to need something else to playtest.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Catoptromancy