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The Strife Commando

Why Was The Combat Shotgun Absent?

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The fan favorite gun from Doom 2 wasn't brought back for Doom 3. Nerve Software brought it back for the Resurrection Of Evil expansion however. Why wasn't it in the base game?

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Posted (edited)

What's combat shotgun, I assume SSG?

 

This is a funny question because why wouldn't you ask "why SSG is not in Doom 1 from the beginning?", which doesn't make any sense from the beginning.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

What's combat shotgun, I assume SSG?

 

This is a funny question because why wouldn't you ask "why SSG is not in Doom 1 from the beginning?", which doesn't make any sense from the beginning.

 

 

Doom 1 was obviously made before Doom 2, so it would not have the gun. Doom 3 on the other hand was made AFTER Doom 2 was released, so it doesn't make sense.

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Doom 3 is not a real sequel to Doom 2 in the sense of design and/or gameplay, so your way explaining this problem doesn't make sense.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Doom 3 is not a real sequel to Doom 2 in the sense of design and/or gameplay, so your way explaining this problem doesn't make sense.

Doom 64 is not called Doom 3 yet is the true sequel to Doom 2. Things happen.

Edited by The Strife Commando

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Yeah, I was kinda disappointed when I found out there wasn't a "super shotgun" in doom 3 :( I almost bought RoE for that gun only x)
Btw, I don't want to be a blind suspicious accusing pr**k, but I'd say they did't put the weapon into the base game so that they could better sell RoE later. We were entering the DLC era after all

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You didn't get what I mean. I didn't say anything about Doom 64, but you have to put everything in time order. They have very different gameplay, so any design choice can make sense in a way.

 

Not to mention you won't get any real answer here unless you send a email to ask whoever was in charge of making gameplay design decision at the time.

 

Also, you don't really seem to care about answers to all your questions. Unless you're a time traveler and you're about to travel back in time to tell them implement SSG in the original Doom 3.

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They probably felt the SSG would not work on the context of a horror game, which tend to avoid the idea of empowerment.
However they added it to the expansion, Ressurection of Evil.

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Just now, Noiser said:

They probably felt the SSG would not work on the context of a horror game, which tend to avoid the idea of empowerment.
However they added it to the expansion, Ressurection of Evil.

I personally would think this is one reason, but later they realized it's not really well received by players, so it has a chance they decided to go full on combat mode again.

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Same reason the normal shotgun can't hit an elephant. They were trying to make it scary by gimping the player.

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They do Doom 3 with a different game direction in mind. Fan Favorite or not, that's spot is for the BFG 9000, not a double Shotgun.

 

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it is sort of a reboot after all, and the dev's mindset was to reintroduce the vanilla weapon loadout just like the first game.

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I feel they did this on purpose, as there’s also plenty of demons that didn’t make it to the game. 

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12 hours ago, Noiser said:

They probably felt the SSG would not work on the context of a horror game, which tend to avoid the idea of empowerment.
However they added it to the expansion, Ressurection of Evil.

 

Yep you are right, as i mentioned in other Threads like this:

You can one shot every lower Demon with the Shotgun, but you have to get close.

To overcome your Feelings and getting close to something in a Moment of Fear and Horror is hard, in my Opinion really clever done from ID.

 

A Super Shotgun would break this "overcome the Horror for one Shot" .

 

The Expansion went more into a Action and so they could Focus on empowering the Player, the Artifact is also a good Example for that.

 

Hmm haven't played RoE for years, should do it again :)

 

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i have a feeling that id did not care about doom 2 when they were developing the game like on the manual (i think?) where it says that on the past your mos reliable weapon on death match was the rocket launcher when any one who plays it will says it is the super shotgun

i think with doom 3 they wanted to in a way remake doom 1 so thats why they left it out and i guess they added it back on RoE because people were all over the internet about how much they hated the doom 3 shotgun

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On 6/5/2021 at 1:57 AM, Gerolf said:

I feel they did this on purpose, as there’s also plenty of demons that didn’t make it to the game. 

 

What do you mean? Doom 3 has all the original Doom demons plus many more.

 

14 hours ago, omalefico32x said:

i guess they added it back on RoE because people were all over the internet about how much they hated the doom 3 shotgun


They added it in RoE because it was a cool bonus for an addon, the only classic weapon that wasn‘t remade yet.

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Barons are missing from Doom 3 :P. Would've been a better addition than those scuffed doom 2 monster versions. Those arch-viles and revenants are just embarrassing gameplay wise ( less need to focus them than imps ).

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Doom 3 actually doesn’t have all the classic monsters. It has most of them, as well as some new ones, but there are quite a few demons that were from Doom and Doom II that were missing in Doom 3. I feel these omissions were deliberate. It’s not like they forgot about them or ran out of time to add them and the SSG (there’s concept art out there for the Doom 3 spider mastermind that was cut), but they had reasons they decided not to include all that. Maybe they wanted to make it feel slightly more like the first Doom by not including the SSG or they had already anticipated expansion packs coming out that would include this weapon. 
 

I think the SSG would’ve been a great addition to Doom 3 originally, but I feel the basic shotgun should’ve been a bit better as well. It feels very nerfed. 

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The Doom 3 shotgun has batshit damage to be honest. It just has absolutely no range due to all the stupid spread on it. It can hit things to your side because of how huge the spread is. Would've been better if it had the spread in a different pattern, say half the shots at cursor and the rest afar, at least enough to kill an imp from some distance so it doesn't feel like shit.

 

Doesn't help that imps\zombies are super skinny so you need to jam it in their face to hit them with it.

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On 6/4/2021 at 9:36 PM, GarrettChan said:

What's combat shotgun, I assume SSG?

 

 

Some foreign-language translation of the Final Doom -and I assume the Doom 2 manual as well- used "combat shotgun" or the equivalent translated term to describe the SSG. Lame, but it was what it was.

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Yeah it comes from the manual.

image.png.1f6bb62641d74fc08b1d4938d952a3b6.png

Makes me wonder what is the origin of "super shotgun".

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I guess somewhere down the line after making the manual they realized Combat Shotgun isn't as cool-sounding as the Super Shotgun.

 

 

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Yup, let's alone that "combat shotgun" sounds stupid. So the regular one is for what, hunting? Recreation? Sports? Actual combat shotgun can be anything from a plain old shotgun with a new name & role, to sophisticated semi- or full- auto contraptions with scopes, removable magazines, etc., and none of them, ever, was like a double-barelled sawed-off (not very Geneva-convention friendly...)

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Posted (edited)

You're probably thinking of the Hague Conventions, which include language on weapons of war. The Geneva Conventions contain language referring to the treatment of the wounded, shipwrecked, captured, and civilians.

 

And do even the Hague conventions contain language on use of buckshot in combat? They definitely address deforming ammunition (hollow points, soft points, partial jackets, etc). IIRC the Germans bitched diplomatically about use of shotguns in the trenches of WW1 but someone better-informed than me would have to assert whether that was ever codified in an agreement with signatories.

 

E: I would agree though that the term "combat shotgun" is bizarre when applied to a double-barreled coach gun, sawn-off or otherwise. That type of old school design is relegated to hunting and collectibles today. Combat shotguns generally use tubular magazines, or in some cases detachable mags (AA12), or revolving magazines (Armsel Striker), and in some cases even detachable revolving magazines (Pancor Jackhammer). Though that last one never got past the prototype stage and IIRC only had a functioning detachable rotary mag in the first Max Payne game.

Edited by UnclePhil

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Posted (edited)
On 6/28/2021 at 2:42 PM, Gerolf said:

Doom 3 actually doesn’t have all the classic monsters. It has most of them, as well as some new ones, but there are quite a few demons that were from Doom and Doom II that were missing in Doom 3.

 

Doom 3 has most of them and many new ones.

 

Doom (1993) only had:

 

Zombieman

Shotgun guy

Imp

Demon

Spectre

Baron of Hell

Cacodemon

Lost soul

Spiderdemon

Cyberdemon

 

Only ones missing in Doom 3 are the Spectre (which is just a semi-invisble version of the Pinky demon) and the Spiderdemon boss. You could also add the Baron of Hell, but the Doom 3 Hellknight is practically a cross between Doom 2 Hellknight and Doom 1 Baron.

 

Doom 3 has:

 

Arch-vile

Cacodemon

Cyberdemon

Demon

Hellknight

Imp

Lost soul

Mancubus

Revenant

 

Civilian zombie (a number of versions including fat zombie)

Chainsaw zombie

Flaming zombie

Morgue zombie

Zombie security guard (aka Z-Sec, a number of versions)

Zombie commando (2 versions)

 

Cherub

Guardian + Seekers

Maggot

Sabaoth

Tick

Trite

Vagary

Wraith

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Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2021 at 1:03 PM, Tetzlaff said:

Zombie commando (2 versions)

That's not a zombie, it's really a demon, complete with spawning and burnaway. If the Icon of Sin existed in DOOM3, it would also spawn them (curiously, both the Icon of Sin and Pain Elemental roles are covered by the DOOM3 Archvile). Oh, no Pain Elementals either (I'd love to see them in a mod, spawning real Lost or Forgotten Souls). Also there are no Arachnotrons. I think we had to wait 16 years for them to appear in DOOM Eternal, finally.

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5 hours ago, printz said:

That's not a zombie, it's really a demon, complete with spawning and burnaway. If the Icon of Sin existed in DOOM3, it would also spawn them (curiously, both the Icon of Sin and Pain Elemental roles are covered by the DOOM3 Archvile). Oh, no Pain Elementals either (I'd love to see them in a mod, spawning real Lost or Forgotten Souls). Also there are no Arachnotrons. I think we had to wait 16 years for them to appear in DOOM Eternal, finally.

 

While they are not the typical re-animated corpse zombies, both Z-Secs and Commandos are former humans. The Z-Secs are Mars City security guards that got possessed via ghostly skull spririts at the beginning of the game, and the Commandos where specifically created by Betruger with a hell magic ritual. Remember that custcene?

 

Btw, it is possible to spawn in the regular civilian zombies with a demonic flash as well. It doesn't happen in the regular game, but some custom maps make use of it, for example Urukhai.

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6 hours ago, printz said:

Oh, no Pain Elementals either (I'd love to see them in a mod, spawning real Lost or Forgotten Souls). Also there are no Arachnotrons.

Doom 3 Phobos has Pain Elementals which spawn forgotten souls. They're rarely used, but they're in there.

 

No Arachnotrons but Phobos also added the Spider Mastermind. It almost makes sense that they omitted the Arachnotron from the original Doom 3, I'd imagine they'd have a hard time moving around most areas. The concept art looked great though and I wish they had found a way to fit them in.

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Posted (edited)

@Lippeth:Phobos actually introduces the Arachnotron in epsiode 2! They are a bit bigger than the classic Doom 2 Arachnotrons and feel more menacing, but act very similar with a plasmagun attack.

 

The mod Hell in Time also had it's own version of Arachnotrons, although they feel a bit gimmicky.

 

Apart from the Pain Elemental in Phobos, which is used like a miniboss, there is also the Pain Elemantal in Revility's demon expansion pack. It is used in a number of custom maps and fires homing ghost skulls (instead of spawning Lost Souls).

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Oh that was an Arachnotron? It's huge! I guess I assumed it was the Spider Mastermind because it was such a built up moment, even though it shot plasma. I do hope they make several appearances in episode 3.

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