the player-mapper conundrum

[terminator]

hi, i'm a doom newbie. recently started mapping, and found it strangely satisfying as if playing classic doom itself. is this considered normal progression in the doom world? newer wads were still being downloaded, but less played due to mapping. felt slightly guilty since have less time to explore all those lovely worlds. curious to know, how do other classic doom mappers fair when they first tasted the joy of mapping? how does a mapper balance their time between playing other people's wads and mapping their own? tq.

Edited June 8, 2021 by terminator

[RDETalus]

Similar situation, I've completely stopped playing Doom and put all that play time into mapping.

[roadworx]

from what i understand it's pretty normal to do that

 

i personally tend to swap between primarily playing and primarily mapping, but i'm pretty sure i'm an outlier :p

[Kinsie]

It's very easy, in my experience, to make the mistake of falling down a hole of only working on and playing your own stuff and not making the time to play other people's stuff.

[Caco Bell]

I mean, in theory mapping should motivate us to keep playing, cause that's how we get to understand Doom's gameplay better; mapping makes us better players and playing makes us better mappers (at least that's how it's supposed to work) As a newbie, I think it is important to remember that if we wanna improve as both mappers and players, we need to remember that we're in it for a long haul. Like, sure I might now be too busy mapping to play all the wads I want, but none of them are going away anywhere, so I'll definitely get around to playing them.

 

A bigger problem for me is playing other games. Because I want to learn mapping, I've been playing nothing but Doom for the last half year, but I'm finding that taking breaks to play other games is good for preventing burnout.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Mapping and playing create a circle of inspiration. You play a map and see something you like, it inspires you to map. Then you start mapping, and end up playing more maps to become more inspired and gain new ideas. 

 

Maybe not a "circle" I guess, but you get the point.

[Doomkid]

There’s only so many hours in a day, and only so many hours of Doom time. It’s inevitable that you’ll lose a lot of play time in exchange for mapping time. If you’re new to the craft but enjoying it, it’s worth the tradeoff to devote more time to developing your mapping abilities.

 

It’s similar to learning an instrument: if all you do is listen to others, you may find inspiration and good ideas, but you’ll never have the skills to apply them yourself. You have to sit there and play stuff that might sound a little crappy for a while, the same way all the god-tier mappers we know of today started out by making maps we’d see as lame - sometimes a lot of them..!

 

You don’t want to burn yourself out either, though. If your creativity tank starts running dry, that’s when you set the editor aside for a week or two (in my case, maybe you’ll only need a day) and play stuff from other people during your allotted Doomy time. Seeing the great works of others may provide the inspiration and drive you need during your mapping down-time.

 

I’m considering quitting mapping for a solid year or so, or maybe longer. A big reason is to catch up on lots of wads I’ve wanted to play - but I’ve mapped (or generally modded) a shitload, so I’ve had the opportunity over the last couple decades to “say what I came to say”, so I feel comfortable with the idea of putting the hobby to rest.

 

You’re at the opposite end of the spectrum, so now is the prime time to practice those mapping skills. Do not be sad that you’re missing some fun wads, because the skills you learned will allow you to make your own - plus, you may already know it, but you’ve already “missed” many hundreds of fantastic wads already. What’s a few more if it allows you to enjoy the art of mapping, after all?!

[LadyMistDragon]

Personally, finding the motivation to start mapping on a semi-regular basis is incredibly difficult. Yeah, it's 'the thing to do' in the Doom community to a massive degree, but every time I try, I just find myself thinking that I'd rather spend time playing wads or even multiplayer sometimes than attempt something that would probably be fairly straightforward, even if I got good enough to make medium-to-large

[Nefelibeta]

It might sounds a bit weird but I always listen to dozens of midis before I start mapping. And once I found my favourite, I will attempt to create the scenery inside my mind. Then I try to come up with ideas of the gameplay and the layout.And that's exactly what I did when I was working on The Mucus Empire and PRCP 2 submissions   (although I was planning to use Jade Empire(plutmidi map3) instead of The Mucus Flow by B.P.R.D, oh well)

[Reelvonic]

I am obsessed with mapping. I have spent hundreds of hours just to make single rooms with extreme levels of detail. Of course I never release these, I usually delete them and then do another because there's something about it. Something addictive. Something that drives me to want to make the perfect map.

[Marisa the Magician]

On 6/8/2021 at 3:45 PM, Kinsie said:

It's very easy, in my experience, to make the mistake of falling down a hole of only working on and playing your own stuff and not making the time to play other people's stuff.

I'm an unfortunate victim of this.

[roadworx]

1 hour ago, Reelvonic said:

I am obsessed with mapping. I have spent hundreds of hours just to make single rooms with extreme levels of detail. Of course I never release these, I usually delete them and then do another because there's something about it. Something addictive. Something that drives me to want to make the perfect map.

what

 

why delete them? compile them all into one map or something

[Bridgeburner56]

One of the big reasons I started doing weekly dedicated playtesting streams was to ensure I got some playing in my Doom diet. Even with that I probably spend 85% of my time mapping but at least it's some :D

[RDETalus]

 

1 hour ago, Reelvonic said:

I am obsessed with mapping. I have spent hundreds of hours just to make single rooms with extreme levels of detail. Of course I never release these, I usually delete them and then do another because there's something about it. Something addictive. Something that drives me to want to make the perfect map.

 

If I make a room I ultimately don't like I copy and paste it into a wad file to store it for later use. I do end up going back to grab those rooms about 10% of the time eventually.

[Biodegradable]

This is where Doom-obsessed lab rats like me come in handy. I only wish I could playtest more often than I already do, but alas, I've got bills to pay and those YouTube videos aren't going to edit themselves.

[KeaganDunn]

I've found myself mapping over playing 90% of the time. I've only just recently got around to playing Eviternity, and barely have touched anything that is not Ribbiks' works. I've wanted to play more stuff that I see on here but I never take the time to do it.

 

I've said it before, but I know only one thing that has contributed to that, and that is Doom's RNG/AI. I hate to say this, but...playing Doom might have lost its sense of fun and/or appeal to me. I've tried playing the easiest shit (i.e. the IWADs) and I couldn't avoid getting frustrated. I've almost fell asleep just trying to blast through easy levels. Like MtPain, I can barely handle taking an unearned hit. It's that lack of control in most situations (and too much of hoping enemies will behave properly) that has always discouraged me from playing Doom, no matter the custom mapset or mod.

 

I feel like I've raged and slammed my desk more because of Doom than any other game. I've been into the franchise for exactly a year now, and I feel like it might've contributed to my mental health. RNG is nothing new to me (having played the FNaF games), but I've always hated "when skill doesn't mean anything." Doom is no exception for me.

 

TL;DR - Apologies for the vent - I had to get it out. But like some other people here, I have become a victim of mapping over playing. And the former has been more enjoyable for me.

[Reelvonic]

21 hours ago, roadworx said:

what

 

why delete them? compile them all into one map or something

never thought about that. i always just deleted them because i feel it could be even better

[Kinsie]

Nothing wrong with keeping a folder of scraps that you can pull and salvage from as needed. Better than deleting it!

Just make sure it's far away from your inspiration folder...

[SiMpLeToNiUm]

Not sure what it is, but I find myself fatigued halfway through episode 1 of most megawads. It's usually because of this that I don't play lots of stuff and instead elect for the one-off maps (both to give feedback and to satisfy my attention span). As a mapper, I know it's probably a good idea to play more stuff, but I just have little interest. ;(  it's kinda upsetting, tbh.

[Doom_Dude]

Yeah, same here. I've been mostly designing maps and I rarely play anything others authors have made. I do play some stuff but it's pretty rare. I have no problem with being motivated to design maps and I have too many unfinished. Despite deciding to not start new stuff, it happens anyway.

 

I even tried doing the megawad club thing but I was always playing catch up, so I eventually just wanted to work on levels. haha.

 

On 6/10/2021 at 4:36 AM, RDETalus said:

If I make a room I ultimately don't like I copy and paste it into a wad file to store it for later use. I do end up going back to grab those rooms about 10% of the time eventually.

 

Yeah I have a wad file full of parts that came about as I changed things in the megawad I'm working on and decided to redesign a lot of areas.

 

On 6/8/2021 at 1:58 PM, Doomkid said:

You don’t want to burn yourself out either, though. If your creativity tank starts running dry, that’s when you set the editor aside for a week or two (in my case, maybe you’ll only need a day) and play stuff from other people during your allotted Doomy time. Seeing the great works of others may provide the inspiration and drive you need during your mapping down-time.

 

Sometimes I'll stop mapping for a week, or about a month. When I burn out it'll take months to get back and one time it lasted at least a year. I haven't had that happen for quite a long time.

[MTrop]

Give a man a map, and he plays Doom for day. Teach a man to map, and he'll never play Doom for the rest of his life.

[Jacek Bourne]

I do whichever I wish to based on my mood and ambition. I get burnt out of mapping somewhat quickly so I'll usually make a single fight and then call it a day and do whatever else I plan to. Keep in mind that making a single fight takes around an hour or 2 because of how much I have to refine and redesign them to play as I planned.

[1Destro3456]

7 hours ago, MTrop said:

Give a man a map, and he plays Doom for day. Teach a man to map, and he'll never play Doom for the rest of his life.

Not sure if I completely agree but it sound vaguely wise so I’ll give it a megasphere 

[garudave]

On 6/11/2021 at 12:28 PM, MTrop said:

Give a man a map, and he plays Doom for day. Teach a man to map, and he'll never play Doom for the rest of his life.

 

This is why I've dragged my feet getting into mapping, I have many many wads to play and fairly limited time each week to do so.  For now, I call it "taste making" and it's a habit one has to return to all the time when embarking on a creative endeavor, imo.

[baja blast rd.]

On 6/10/2021 at 4:09 AM, Dunn (& Dunn) said:

I've said it before, but I know only one thing that has contributed to that, and that is Doom's RNG/AI. I hate to say this, but...playing Doom might have lost its sense of fun and/or appeal to me. I've tried playing the easiest shit (i.e. the IWADs) and I couldn't avoid getting frustrated. I've almost fell asleep just trying to blast through easy levels. Like MtPain, I can barely handle taking an unearned hit. It's that lack of control in most situations (and too much of hoping enemies will behave properly) that has always discouraged me from playing Doom, no matter the custom mapset or mod.

 

A few years back, when I was frustrated with this for a bit, what fixed it was learning to distinguish between: 

 

a) mistakes and bad events that actually lower your odds of winning, or put you in an unnecessarily tight spot -- or have a good chance of doing either of those;

 

b) "cosmetic" blemishes. 

 

A lot of what people think of as bad things are more in the category of (b). If you are playing a map that has an abundance of shells, missing an SSG shot against a lone imp and using another one to finish it off (four shells for one imp) is probably meaningless. Health in most Doom maps is more a durability thing instead of pure attrition; play a Valiant map, and absorbing 2-3 hits from imps and zombies, and say 1 hit from a mid-tier monster, in every major fight, is just as good as reality-ing the map, at least from a standpoint of how likely you are to survive. Because that small number of hits is never going to amount to danger.

 

Essentially, I learned to ignore what I now think of as irrelevant perfectionism, unless I have a highly specific goal in mind, like "do this specific fight without taking a hit because that seems fun to try." 

 

I now care more about mistakes that are reasonably likely to be punished -- even if they aren't that specific time. For example, sloppy two-shot timing against a cyb is a "mistake" even if the cyb doesn't retaliate in the necessary window, because your chances of eating a hit go from 0% to 10%+ or whatever, which is a substantial unforced error given how much damage a cyber does.  

 

Also that was back when I cared at all about being decent at games. I don't anymore, and letting go of that helps too.

[Rytrik]

On 6/8/2021 at 8:45 AM, Kinsie said:

It's very easy, in my experience, to make the mistake of falling down a hole of only working on and playing your own stuff and not making the time to play other people's stuff.

 

Wasn't that how OG Doom was made - the id team creating/working on & playing the heck out of their own maps? True, they didn't have community maps to draw on.. though isn't there still value in going deep on one's own work? Or does one need that outside influence of others' work?

 

(I'm a complete amateur at map making, so I don't know the process)

[out_of_service]

On 6/10/2021 at 12:20 AM, Reelvonic said:

I am obsessed with mapping. I have spent hundreds of hours just to make single rooms with extreme levels of detail. Of course I never release these, I usually delete them and then do another because there's something about it. Something addictive. Something that drives me to want to make the perfect map.

I'm the exact same way. I've made a lot of maps over the years, but I never finish them or just end up deleting them. It really is addicting but I don't feel that I can really contribute anything original. It's like that Southpark episode "Simpsons Already Did It".