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Wadmodder Shalton

Microsoft Windows 11 confirmed exclusive to 64-bit CPUs.

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Personally I don't really see why I need to upgrade yet. Knowing Microsoft it's prolly gonna be filled with more bloatware then I care to uninstall and I don't really feel like reinstalling all my shit so...

 

I think I'll stick with Windows 10 for now, maybe in the forseeable future I'll upgrade, but not right now.

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Because the odds of finding an only 32bit capable system that meets all of the other Windows 11 requirements - notably the TPM 2.0 chip and Direct X 11 - are basically nil I completely fail to see what the fuss is about. Hell even my old but still pretty decent system that loads Windows 10 in under ten seconds and still throws even most modern games around at 1080p and good settings is not eligible due to the lack of TPM chip. Funnily enough my much less power office computer might be, have not checked it yet.

 

The tech industry moves on and it waits for no one. It is and always has been the nature of the beast. There are always going to be people who for one reason or another cannot or will not upgrade. But to get upset about such advancements because you can't or won't get them is about as sensible as getting angry at the fire that burned you because you jammed your hand in it.

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43 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

If you could have a 20% faster computer, why wouldn't you want that?

maybe because there's nothing that magically gives me a 20% faster computer by simply switching to 64 bits? but now i have to redesign my data structures due to new cache constraints just to keep the old speed.

 

45 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

A list of the things your missing out on when compiling a 32-bit binary that must run on a 1999 vintage PC

where i said exactly this? it's not my words, and not my arguments.

 

46 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

when the auto-vectorizer actually manages to optimize a critical loop in the program, a 50% speed increase

...means that your programmers should be fired.

 

Quote

The tech industry moves on and it waits for no one.

and most of the time it moves in the direction nobody really asked, and does things nobody really need. sometimes there is a reason to not follow the crowd. actually, most of the time there are such reasons.

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12 minutes ago, ketmar said:

maybe because there's nothing that magically gives me a 20% faster computer by simply switching to 64 bits? but now i have to redesign my data structures due to new cache constraints just to keep the old speed.

 

where i said exactly this? it's not my words, and not my arguments.

 

...means that your programmers should be fired.

 

and most of the time it moves in the direction nobody really asked, and does things nobody really need. sometimes there is a reason to not follow the crowd. actually, most of the time there are such reasons.

Your post is 75% bullshit not gonna lie.

Edited by Cacodemon345

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11 minutes ago, ketmar said:

...means that your programmers should be fired. 

This might be the single dumbest thing that will get posted in this thread. Congratulations.

 

Compiler optimisations are incredibly standard. Nobody writes AVX intrinsics for every possible loop, especially when doing cross platform code unless you want to make the whole thing a hell fire of inline loops and ifdefs between x86, x64, Arm and PowerPC. We aren't writing in assembler here, we moved to C/C++ for this reason. It was the whole point.

Edited by Edward850

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2 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

This might be the single dumbest thing that will get posted in this thread. Congratulations.

Yeah, that "programmers fired" statement is worthy of the dumbest statement award for sure lol.

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i hope next time when some software you're using will glitch or be slow, you will say that it's not a programmer's fault, and buy two more copies to help the poor programmers. because writing shit that can be made 50% faster simply by using compiler switches is The New Craft. it's not sensible to ask programmers to know how... ahem... to program. i hope you love your wonderful world, where your smartphone has gigabytes of RAM and powerful multicore CPUs, and still cannot always react to user actions in real time.

 

but i guess that this is The New Normality, so i should go back to my cave, where such things are still called absolutely unsuitable for using.

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I'm sorry to hear that you think I don't know how to program. A modern C++ compiler is better at assembly than I am, I make no apology for that. However, even if I could best the compiler then in the case of GZDoom's software renderer the amount of drawers it must support (due to different bit depths, blend modes, sloped vs normal, etc.) makes it unrealistic to do this by hand.

 

That's actually my entire point throughout this thread. Just by changing some compiler switches you get a solid performance increase across the board for all the small optimizations that CPU, OS and compiler vendors have made over the years. Each one in isolation doesn't do that, but the sum of them it starts to matter. And sometimes you hit the jackpot and it optimizes something like those drawers where it makes an ocean of difference. Performance you otherwise had no chance of getting without significantly increasing your development budget. That's why I think it is great we finally get to ditch 32-bit Windows so all users of the software can get this free speed boost.

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cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep -i avx

flags           : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx pdpe1gb rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts xtopology nonstop_tsc cpuid aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx est tm2 ssse3 sdbg fma cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 sse4_2 movbe popcnt aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm abm cpuid_fault tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid fsgsbase tsc_adjust bmi1 avx2 smep bmi2 erms invpcid xsaveopt dtherm arat pln pts

 

uname -m

i686

 

remind me again, please, why can't i use those avx speedups on my 32-bit OS, and have to upgrade to 64 first?

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5 minutes ago, ketmar said:

remind me again, please, why can't i use those avx speedups on my 32-bit OS, and have to upgrade to 64 first?

You can. What you can't do is easily compile an executable for other users that only uses avx if it is available. Even if you did bother to build multiple executables you'd have to have a download page that said something like "okay, first you need to cat /proc/cpuinfo and grep for avx, sse4 or sse2. Then based on that you need to click on link A, B or C". Or you'd have to create a launcher exe that did nothing but detect support and then spawn the correct exe for the system (effectively creating your own version of macOS fat binaries). It would be a support nightmare for normal users with the first approach, and the second method creates much larger downloads and build infrastructure issues.

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as we've seen above, some newer CPUs don't have AVX2 support too. so the solution is to force owners of those CPUs to... what? and why? and how 64-bitness should help here? saving developer's time by wasting time and money of users is normal in contemporary software development, but i don't, and won't agree with that. there are several solutions to this -- for example, making building software from source, optimised for user's machine, easier. but forcing people to upgrade their hardware is the worst possible "solution" in this case (and it doesn't even solve the problem per se).

 

it's not even OpenGL2 vs OpenGL3+ question, because supporting different OpenGL versions require different code. but here you said that it is the question of compiler flags, so developers don't have to maintain several codebases.

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I already listed the most significant features unlocked by 64-bit Windows. Yes, it doesn't include AVX-2 unfortunately, but it is still 10 years of improvements. No user will ever complain about my software crashing on a SSE2 instruction on x64, because 64-bit Windows won't even boot on such hardware.

 

I think it is pretty clear by this point that we won't reach an agreement on these matters. Whether it is reasonable solution to tell every user to compile their own software is a discussion for another day. :)

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17 minutes ago, Pegg said:

What CPU doesn't support AVX2? Both AMD and Intel flagships are listed as supported.

Pentiums and Celerons.

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Eh, I use only Ubuntu these days for mainline. If I were to build a gaming machine again, I'd see how far I could get with Windows 7, 8/10 just don't have any of the flexibility I require for a baseline machine. If 11 is going to be even more extreme along those routes, I'll just keep doing what I do with older stuff, and using Wine or VMs for games that don't allow it.

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This is something we all can agree on! Just as Doom95 was used as a flagship for DirectX and gaming on Windows 95, Doom 64 is the same for Windows 11. What better way to show commitment to 64-bit gaming, than Doom designed for a 64-bit processor? It is no coincidence that when the Windows 11 reveal happened, they specifically mentioned Doom 64 in relation the new auto HDR feature. We can be 100% certain that Microsoft had no interest in Zenimax/Bethesda for the most part, otherwise they would have bought them much sooner, just like they did with Rare. But then Bethesda proved they owned the rights to Doom 64 with the re-release last year, which Microsoft immediately started considering buying out the company after that point. It's an undisputable fact now that Microsoft wanted Doom 64 to show off the power of committing to 64 bit! Sure Skyrim and Fallout franchises are okay, but we know the big Cyberdemon on the earth-map is Doom 64. The future is 64! 64! 64!

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I am still on win7 because win10 won't stop updating by itself and consuming my expensive gigabytes.

 

I know there are some weird ways to stop this, and latest win10 versions might even allow user control over it, but still.

 

I have early win10 dvd and it directly jumps on updating the moment I connect to internet. So, no.

 

Win7 gets my job done and is very good. I am in no need for win10 or win11 at the moment.

 

Edit: my pc had win10 when I bought it. I installed win7 on it, and I am happy with it.

Edited by roboticmehdi2

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If 32-bit is faster than 64-bit on your rig, I'm sure it's because your hardware is old

I had a pretty old rig myself, I was testing whether 32-bit or 64-bit would be faster, and the answer was 32-bit because on 64-bit I was experiencing performance loss

Nowadays? No way in hell would I use 32-bit OS on my current rig, that would be stupid

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2 minutes ago, Kizoky said:

If 32-bit is faster than 64-bit on your rig, I'm sure it's because your hardware is old

or, maybe, because nowdays programmers simply don't know how to program. of course, my 20+ years of software development expirience doesn't mean that i know better... or is it?

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With Windows 11 being an exclusive to 64-bit CPUs, game developers inexperienced with 64-bit CPUs, including Valve, now have to utilize the exclusive features of the x86-x64 architecture, such as the more RAM larger than 4GB situation, extra compiler code exclusive to 64-bit, etc.

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5 minutes ago, ketmar said:

or, maybe, because nowdays programmers simply don't know how to program. of course, my 20+ years of software development expirience doesn't mean that i know better... or is it?

Sorry if this comes off as super rude but your software development experience doesn't cover all programs and it isn't a very good reference when it comes to OS and hardware ( completely different jobs even if they follow similar structures ). Especially if you think the super outdated 32-bit is better than the slightly outdated 64-bit that should've been standard much earlier than windows 11.

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2 hours ago, ketmar said:

of course, my 20+ years of software development expirience doesn't mean that i know better... or is it?

Professional or hobbyist software development? They tend to be very different things.

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5 hours ago, roboticmehdi2 said:

I am still on win7 because win10 won't stop updating by itself and consuming my expensive gigabytes.

 

I know there are some weird ways to stop this, and latest win10 versions might even allow user control over it, but still.

 

I have early win10 dvd and it directly jumps on updating the moment I connect to internet. So, no.

 

Win7 gets my job done and is very good. I am in no need for win10 or win11 at the moment.

 

Edit: my pc had win10 when I bought it. I installed win7 on it, and I am happy with it.

I mean, you could download the Windows 10 Media Creation Tool, which will download an ISO, or if you got at least an 8 GB USB stick you can create a bootable USB, and I'm pretty sure it'll be one of the later versions of Win10.

 

At least, I hope that's the case.

 

Or when I do build my new PC, it's gonna take some hours to get through the updates.

 

That said, I'd get off Win7 pretty soon. AMD just released their last GPU driver update for it; nVidia will be following suit this October, and programs are starting to leave it behind.

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9 hours ago, ketmar said:

i hope next time when some software you're using will glitch or be slow, you will say that it's not a programmer's fault, and buy two more copies to help the poor programmers. because writing shit that can be made 50% faster simply by using compiler switches is The New Craft. it's not sensible to ask programmers to know how... ahem... to program. i hope you love your wonderful world, where your smartphone has gigabytes of RAM and powerful multicore CPUs, and still cannot always react to user actions in real time.

 

but i guess that this is The New Normality, so i should go back to my cave, where such things are still called absolutely unsuitable for using.

We haven't had a single glitch caused by compiler optimisations over the course of every game developed. Heck, the only glitches that tend to occur from older code we refurbish have always been from people thinking they knew better than the compiler or the service they were working with, such as Turok2's weird assumptions about void pointer sizes or the SSE screen blitter in Keen Dreams that caused the whole screen to go black.

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9 hours ago, ketmar said:

but i guess that this is The New Normality, so i should go back to my cave, where such things are still called absolutely unsuitable for using.

 

Out of curiosity, what industry do you work in where this level of backwards compatibility and developer care is paramount?

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1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

That said, I'd get off Win7 pretty soon. AMD just released their last GPU driver update for it; nVidia will be following suit this October, and programs are starting to leave it behind.

 

Yes hardware support for Windows 7 is all but gone. I had someone who wanted a Windows 7 build a couple of years ago. I was able to install it, but finding the drivers for everything was impossible. I can only assume the situation has gotten worse since then.

Windows 10 or 11 is in your future if you want to keep using Windows a platform and want to get a new computer at some point. There is no way around it.

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12 hours ago, The_Trve_Raith said:

Personally I don't really see why I need to upgrade yet. Knowing Microsoft it's prolly gonna be filled with more bloatware then I care to uninstall and I don't really feel like reinstalling all my shit so...

 

 

One of the main drivers for the development of Windows 11 was and is to get rid of bloat and seldom-used applications/services. For example, Paint3D won't be included in the default install anymore but will be available for free from the Microsoft Store. Cortana won't be activated by default anymore. The timeline feature will be removed. And so on... Read the related news to learn more, if interested.

 

If you upgrade from Windows 10 to 11, you can choose whether to start with a fresh Windows 11 system or importing your settings and applications from Windows 10. And there is the install option for dual-boot, which leaves your current Windows 10 installation intact, so you can choose on system boot whether to start up Windows 10 or 11. Of course, that requires sufficient disk space.

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12 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Hell even my old but still pretty decent system that loads Windows 10 in under ten seconds and still throws even most modern games around at 1080p and good settings is not eligible due to the lack of TPM chip.

 

 

There's a workaround for this by means of a registry key entry, officially incorporated into Windows 11 by Microsoft. It's needed for example for large businesses that cannot afford/manage to exchange every system short-termed, that lacks TPM, and still want to roll out Windows 11 on their systems. But of course, Microsoft doesn't make too much noise about it.

 

More interesting is the fact, that many CPUs are considered to be insufficient for Windows 11. Microsoft published Windows 11 compatibility lists both for Intel and AMD CPUs, even some systems Microsoft still is selling in their shop for over ~$3.500 don't make the cut. Yet again, no real barrier, Windows 11 will still install with a corresponding compatibility notification.

 

But I won't hold my hand into the fire for Windows 12, though. 8P

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