Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Kyka

The man who destroyed id software.

Recommended Posts

22 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

FUCK this dude and fuck the new Evil Dead game he's overseeing.

Dammit, I didn't know he was in charge of that, I was looking forward to that game...fuck.

Share this post


Link to post

American Mcgee had to ask him for mapping advice? Damn that's comical. Especially since he was deemed good enough to make the first episode of Doom 2 ( minus map01 ), the one that would make or break it for a new player. 

Share this post


Link to post

I feel awful for American McGee.. especially reading the one story in the comments about Tim and American's ex, what the hell?

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, VanaheimRanger said:

Dammit, I didn't know he was in charge of that, I was looking forward to that game...fuck.

 

I'm still buying it. 

 

6 minutes ago, Hazel-Rah said:

I feel awful for American McGee.. especially reading the one story in the comments about Tim and American's ex, what the hell?

 

I feel bad for American McGee, I think he lost his marbles somewhere along the way. 

 

image.png.f2d20e2c14645aff3ecc0b931796b136.png

Share this post


Link to post

That isn't the first time that Sandy brought this up.

 

 

Spoiler

After watching that video, click on this one and skip to 7:32 :)

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Doomkid said:

The nanosecond I initally heard about all of this, I just thought "who's the one guy that isn't Romero who worked at id who claimed he invented deathmatch maps again?"

 

 

EDIT: Just to add to this history a little, the first deathmatch-only map was CROSS.WAD, one of the first custom maps ever built for Doom. (March 11th, 1994 - just 4 days after ORIGWAD, meaning it's probably among the first 2-3 custom Doom levels ever)

 

Seriously, American McGee, Alex Seropian and Mark Doctermann have far more responsibility in making FPS deathmatch than Tim "All the maps can be beaten WITHOUT cheats" Willts. Not to mention John Romero, but I dunno he had the instincts of American in that regard.

3 hours ago, bLOCKbOYgAMES said:

Perhaps I should save this next comment for the Controversial Opinions thread:

 

In spite of everything, thought some of Tim Willits mapping was pretty good.

In Quake, yes. "Castle of the Damned?" "The Grisly Grotto?" Those were some amazing maps. In Doom however (Canyon definitely had some strong ideas as well as the non-secret map that ended up in Thy Flesh Consumed)He was assisted by Theresa in basically all the maps that got him hired. In all honesty, either her, John Anderson, or @Soundblock would have been a far better option in maintaining cohesion(well maybe, I can't be sure if she'd be harder to get hold of than Drake O'Brien or someone like that).

Share this post


Link to post

Could be him. But it changes nothing to the fact that Baiken has MASSIVE tits

Share this post


Link to post

Point of interest: regarding the situation described by Sandy over Willits's deliberate misdirection of American's level design, American himself doesn't recall the event (though he can't say for sure it didn't happen):

 

Quote

 

"American could tell something [was not right]," Petersen said. "So he went to Carmack and said, 'What should I do?' John Carmack said, 'Okay, to make your levels look better, go and talk to Tim.' And Tim Willits could make absolutely spectacular-looking levels. They were great levels. He said, 'Talk to Tim. Look to him to show you how to make your levels look really nice.'"

 

Willits deployed misdirection to further attenuate McGee's status with management. When McGee submitted new and revised levels for appraisal, Carmack lost his temper and accused him of doing A when he had expressly wanted B.

 

"American was horrified," Petersen said. "He said, 'Yes, I did just what he said.' Basically, what had happened was Tim Willits had literally told American the opposite of what he should do, to get him in trouble with John Carmack. And Carmack couldn't believe it. Who could be that dirty? He absolutely refused to believe that Willits had done it, but he had. That was Tim Willits literally tanking American McGee."

 

McGee remembers the situation differently. Carmack had no say in level design, and would not have given him or any other designer an evaluation. Any feedback would have come from Adrian Carmack, Kevin Cloud, or the studio's de facto lead level designer. "That's not to say he didn't. I just don't recall it," McGee said. "Somebody, Tim or someone else, would come to me and say, 'This isn't really the direction we want you to go. Why don't you try something different?' I think at that point, they had unofficially elevated him to lead level designer. He had purview over that process, sort of the instruction-and-review process. I remember he had been elevated to a position above mine, for sure."

 

 

https://www.shacknews.com/article/101156/rocket-jump-quake-and-the-golden-age-of-first-person-shooters?page=11#detail-view

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

I'm still buying it. 

Me too, but I'll be sure to feel super bad about it for a minute or two...lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

 

19 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Point of interest: regarding the situation described by Sandy over Willits's deliberate misdirection of American's level design, American himself doesn't recall the event (though he can't say for sure it didn't happen):

 

I think you would remember John Carmack ripping into you. I suspect it would be... rather memorable. Either that or something in the id building made everyone who used to work there have really, REALLY bad memories.

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

something in the id building made everyone who used to work there have really, REALLY bad memories.

 

Given what a mess Quake's development cycle was from beginning to end, it wouldn't surprise me if any of the OG id Boys would have trouble remembering stuff. Plus, being able to recall stuff that happened 20 years ago with razor-sharp accuracy in general is a big ask.

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

Given what a mess Quake's development cycle was from beginning to end, it wouldn't surprise me if any of the OG id Boys would have trouble remembering stuff. Plus, being able to recall stuff that happened 20 years ago with razor-sharp accuracy in general is a big ask.

 

Oh sure. I am not exactly a paragon of recall unless it's stupid things like lines from movies I haven't watch in 20 years and song lyrics. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Murdoch said:

Oh sure. I am not exactly a paragon of recall unless it's stupid things like lines from movies I haven't watch in 20 years and song lyrics. 

 

Ain't that just the way? I'm also a terrific repository of utterly useless information, but I have to constantly write post-it notes everywhere to remind myself of an appointment for something that I'll STILL forget anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Why would Carmack be consulted on level design when he's a programmer and isn't credited with any levels in the final release of Doom? 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

Ain't that just the way? I'm also a terrific repository of utterly useless information, but I have to constantly write post-it notes everywhere to remind myself of an appointment for something that I'll STILL forget anyways.

 

Oh yes brother, I know that pain all too well.

 

15 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Why would Carmack be consulted on level design when he's a programmer and isn't credited with any levels in the final release of Doom? 

 

Yeah I think American has the right of it. It seems weird he would be involved. It's possible it was Adrian who was the culprit?

Share this post


Link to post
55 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

I think you would remember John Carmack ripping into you. I suspect it would be... rather memorable. Either that or something in the id building made everyone who used to work there have really, REALLY bad memories.

Didn't American McGee also struggle with mental illness or something?

 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that at least some of it served as inspiration for his Alice games.

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Didn't American McGee also struggle with mental illness or something?

 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that at least some of it served as inspiration for his Alice games.

 

You  may be right. I have read some of things he has written and he is definitely an interesting character. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Why would Carmack be consulted on level design when he's a programmer and isn't credited with any levels in the final release of Doom? 

 

I am just hypothesizing here as to why, but possibly because JC was one of the owners of the company, and it was known that he was "informally" in charge. For example in the book "Masters of Doom" he moved his desk at one stage so that he could see whether or not everyone was working. It is not beyond reason then if he would be consulted on maps and design. He is certainly a very smart man, and psychologically, we often just assume that really smart people are very knowledgeable in areas only tangentially connected to their area of expertise, so people may well have gone to him for help or advice in very diverse areas of game design.

 

Pure speculation, but possible at least.

Edited by bLOCKbOYgAMES

Share this post


Link to post

To be fair to Sandy, he comes across really well in interviews - really thoughtful, passionate, knowledgeable. He'd be a pleasure to work with.

 

Sandy Petersen, you are forgiven for The Chasm, The Pit and all the other ones that I think are crap. THEY ARE NOW MY FAVOURITE LEVELS!!! No.

Share this post


Link to post
21 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Didn't American McGee also struggle with mental illness or something?

 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that at least some of it served as inspiration for his Alice games.

i've heard similar rumors, but that doesn't necessarily mean his memory is wrong in this case. honestly i wouldn't be surprised if sandy is the one misremembering, considering his age

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, roadworx said:

i've heard similar rumors, but that doesn't necessarily mean his memory is wrong in this case. honestly i wouldn't be surprised if sandy is the one misremembering, considering his age

Indeed. I was just trying to think of other reasons as to why American McGee would not remember the whole incident.

 

Assuming it happened of course.

Share this post


Link to post

We need D2TWiWHDiTWWHNMWAML.

 

 

Spoiler

Doom 2 The Way id Would Have Done, if Tim Willits Would Have Not Mess With American McGee Levels

 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Sometimes I interpret things the wrong way in the moment and it colors how I remember things. Sandy probably genuinely had the thought that Tim was sabotaging American at some point back in the day, and that thought stuck with him over the years. Yet if we could somehow look back through the lens of objectivity, it may be that case that Sandy just got the wrong impression at the time.

 

Personally, from all I've read and heard, I still think it's possible that Tim would do something underhanded like that. It could very well also be the case that Tim was leading American down the primrose path so to speak with regards to level design philosophy, Sandy noticed it at the time, but American was none the wiser even to this day. It's impossible to say, since all parties involved remember it slightly differently (unsurprisingly).

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, roadworx said:

i've heard similar rumors, but that doesn't necessarily mean his memory is wrong in this case. honestly i wouldn't be surprised if sandy is the one misremembering, considering his age

Yeah, but having read an American interview once, his memory definitely seems like a complete black hole when it comes to certain things. How much sense does it really make for Kevin or Adrian to have tonguelashed him over sloppy levels when they were just artists? I don't think it happened precisely like Sandy said necessarily, but thinking back on his words, they could be interpreted as something of a general observation as opposed to what it was Tim told American. Anyway, JC had made games before in the past(not to mention having been a DM which isn't exactly the same thing, but...), and was basically a programmer by preference as much as anything.

Edited by LadyMistDragon

Share this post


Link to post

Good to see my own findings and feelings about this guy is in fact shared by many.

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Sometimes I interpret things the wrong way in the moment and it colors how I remember things. Sandy probably genuinely had the thought that Tim was sabotaging American at some point back in the day, and that thought stuck with him over the years. Yet if we could somehow look back through the lens of objectivity, it may be that case that Sandy just got the wrong impression at the time.

 

Personally, from all I've read and heard, I still think it's possible that Tim would do something underhanded like that. It could very well also be the case that Tim was leading American down the primrose path so to speak with regards to level design philosophy, Sandy noticed it at the time, but American was none the wiser even to this day. It's impossible to say, since all parties involved remember it slightly differently (unsurprisingly).

honestly i'm just assuming that sandy is mixing american up with someone else, knowing tim willits i'd fully believe he'd do something scummy like that to someone at the company

Share this post


Link to post

Haven't really watched Sandy's videos before, but I really enjoyed this one. He's nice and pleasant to listen to, and told a couple of anecdotes about John Carmack / id that I had not been aware of.

 

On the topic stated in this thread's title, I got the impression that no single person could really take all of the blame. It seems that this is how the situation evolved, on the whole. Sandy mentions that there was no real project management in place for Quake development (and JC turned down his proposal to fill in that role, for whatever reason), and a lack of a clear goal and established development process can have a rather detrimental effect on morale, even if it does not become immediately obvious.

 

Also I think everyone on the dev team fully understood what a gigantic leap in technology the Quake engine was compared to Doom, and that could also become a source of frustration, for not being able to realise it to its full potential within set deadlines, and/or because of not fully knowing what to do with the nigh limitless possibilities that the engine offered. After all, they were the pioneers (also mentioned by Sandy), they had no one to look to in terms of "proper" game design and had to find out what works and what doesn't, all on their own. It's a very daunting task come to think of it.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×