A return to Doomworld and an open thread for any questions regarding TNT Revilution development and whatever else

[NaturalTvventy]

Welcome back! I still have my fingers crossed for the Mea Culpa full release.

[Devalaous]

4 hours ago, NaturalTvventy said:

Welcome back! I still have my fingers crossed for the Mea Culpa full release.

 

You'll be happy to know that I saved it from death and had a copy of his latest Mea Culpa beta in backup all these years, which he now has a copy of :) So its definitely not impossible!

[Steve D]

Welcome back, @Kyka! I never knew you back in the day, and you were already gone from TNT:R when I joined up -- @Jaws In Space was in charge then and did a great job -- but obviously your vision permeated the project, and it was a really fun project to work on. I'm happy with the maps I did for TNT:R and glad to be listed in something that turned out so well, though I wish I hadn't placed the coolest part of Map14 in a secret area. ;D

 

Speaking of Map14, reading what @Eris, @Devalaous and yourself said about your plans for E2 and that map in particular, I hope I at least came somewhat close to the feeling and atmosphere you had in mind. Same ballpark, maybe? Perhaps county? Okay, how about state? ;D

 

And yes, I'm a huge fan of the Revilution Texture pack. I really enjoyed working with it and am currently using it in a project of my own. I especially like Brown12, so my thanks to whoever made that one, it's a truly great rock texture.

 

I'm also thrilled that @Uni is still in the community. I absolutely love Map01. It's among my favorite opening maps in any megawad. I liked it so much that I keyed off its style for Map04. All I can say is, "More maps, please."

 

 

[Kyka]

10 hours ago, P41R47 said:

 

Interesting enough, CPD a project released last year, has that same premise.
And it do it pretty good.

So now in retrospective, it would been just amazing to saw it on the TNT sequel. :D

 

I played CPD just in the last month or so. Wonderful mapset. I am a bit of  a sucker for mapsets that have such levels of continuity between the maps. I can't even find all the textures that I made for Revilution. I have many but not all of them. 

 

9 hours ago, Devalaous said:

I'll post some more development stuff later, I believe some of it is still lying around but in hard to find spots.

 

The more the better. I love that stuff.

 

9 hours ago, Eris said:

I'm not sure what to say. Welcome back Kyka, great to see you're ok and it's super cool to see you return. I'm really glad you like Revilution, I thought it turned out really great and that Jaws did a grand job on seeing it through when I couldn't hack it as a leader (again), but there was always a part of me that felt bad about how we culled a lot of your work, because that seemed so against the point of the project, it seemed like a mirror of what happened with TNT2.

 

At the very least, we got to keep MAP12. Transduction is a masterpiece, personally I think dobu really understood what episode 2 was meant to be about and took the map even further in that direction. It's like a little window into the early plans for the project, and it's the map from Revilution that people tend to talk about the most. I remember those early days, often talking with you and Devalaous about what we wanted Revilution to be. Transduction, and how well it was received, tells me that those plans didn't go to waste.

 

As for that MAP14 idea though; I believe I was the one who was making the map itself, but as everyone knows there's only like a 1% chance of me finishing any map that I start so it wasn't to be. All that's left are these screenshots which I think were actually from two separate attempts.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I did find a different map in a TRCP-14.wad on my mediafire, dated 23 November 2014. It's just two areas and I have no recollection of making them, though I assume it was me. It's quite possible this was the start of the second attempt in the previous spoiler, and I just never uploaded a newer version...

  Reveal hidden contents

edit: finally got imgur to show me the full original filenames of the screenshots, the first one in the first spoiler is from April 2014, the second one is from July, so this mystery map in the second spoiler must have been something else again. So that's at least 3 different attempts I made at that slot, lol :)

 

Yeah @Eris you guys did a superb job. I couldn't play Revilution for a long time. Too many memories haha. But this year I was just able to sit down and enjoy it for what it was, totally separate from any past associations. And I really enjoyed it. Superbly done, there wasn't a bad level in the set. Certainly different from what it would have been had I  and the team finished it before you guys got to it, but this is definitely no criticism. haha I maintain that the Revilution that finally came out thoroughly deserved a cacoward. I actually thought the weakest map in the set was map 29, switching between the green and brown versions of viridian twilight. i found it a little confusing to play. Still not bad, but it didn't flow as well as many of the other maps.

 

Also I remember those screens really well. Particularly the first one which had the two techbase platforms overlooking inky blackness and a sheer drop. Very ominous and foreboding. Slightly sad we never got to see that map. Heh. Three different attempts? I find, not just with DOom, but with everything, that I only do one attempt. And then I work at it over and over and over until I am happy with it. I never throw anything out. Lol this is both a strength and a weakness. To be able to throw an idea away and start over. I admire you lol.

 

You mention map 12. Well I agree with your assessment. It really is one of the more remarkable vanilla maps. @StupidBunny actually did the original map, unless my memory is absolutely terrible. I just saw literal greatness in that map. Then @Megamur and I got to work on it. Both StupidBunny and Megamur are very underrated mappers. I love the themes and ideas that they used, and map 12 was their vision. I was privileged to have worked on it extensively. And then of course, @dobu gabu maru came through after all of us, added that epic final section and neatened up the flow and other things with the map. Made it less linear. Did a great job of making it one of Revilutions stand out maps. You will have seen both, But I will share map layouts of map 12 under 'my' Revilution, and the final Revilution.

 

 

Above is the final Map 12, as finalised by dobu.

 

 

And above is the completed version that was done during 'my' time on Revilution. The two rectangle 'wings' on the side of the large area in the top middle of the map were actually deathmatch only areas, that were removed when the final Revilution didn't bother with deathmatch much. There is a maze in the left-lower-middle of the map.There is that hell corridor in the top left of the map. And there is the original triangular area taken from the original wormhold map and modified. And there is  a secret in the very top of the map. The biggest difference however is the progression through the map. These areas were not just secondary, they were pivotal to progression. So almost from start to finish, you play the map very differently.

 

Depending on what @Jaws In Space wants to do, we could release this differing version of Transduction separately, as it is probably too similar to the one in Revilution to release in TNT forever. But not my decision ultimately. Thanks again mrthejoshmon for the welcome and for engaging on this thread. Transduction was amazing. And yes I totally agree that dobu understood what transduction was trying to do. He showed not just great mapping skill, but also a thematic sensitivity and awareness of atmosphere and progression that was beautiful to play through. I spent a couple of years editing and working on this map, so obviously I knew it pretty well. And I was still astonished when I played the final version.

 

9 hours ago, Cammy said:

More of this, please. I'm too new to the scene to have any personal stock in what's happening here - I haven't even played Revilution for myself yet, and it had already been out for years by the time I'd shot my first imp - but I'd still feel remiss not to commend everyone in this thread for their civility, humility, and transparency. There's something special about seeing a long-gone face come back to a thread free of bad blood or recriminations, and for that I thank you all. This is a great, great community. Welcome back, Kyka!

 

Hi @Cammy and welcome to this thread. I am humbled and I too really value these things you have mentioned, although in the past I failed to show the levels of said humility civility and transparency that I should have, which resulted in several bannings, post hells, and having ultimately bestowed upon me the title: "needs to lurk more." Which honestly hurt at the time, but now I wear as a badge of pride that I was one of those early veterans who was around in the days of having titles bestowed by the community, and not the titular free-for all that it now is. (not that that is bad at all! :)

 

I am honestly humbled by your welcome and I thank you for it. I am glad too that you feel welcome here. I hope this community continues to welcome like this, and even grows in its ability to welcome newer people, and to nurture their creativity and talents, however those things play out. This community has improved over the years. Not that it was terrible ever, but for internet communities, it is often a difficult transition from a core group of friends who share common interests and social understandings, to, a community that has to be accomodating to people who are not friends at all, at least initially, and who come from very different social norms and understandings. The code of behaviour is very different for a group of friends as for a group of professional strangers.

 

Soz for the long post but tl;dr: Enjoy your stay. Thanks for being here. And thanks for the kind words.

 

And do check out Revilution. It is a wonderful mapset. And I say that not just because of my involvement. :D  Best regards.

[roadworx]

oshit i remember you

 

i didn't even realize that you were the one who started up tnt:r. either way, welcome back!!

[Kyka]

9 hours ago, NaturalTvventy said:

Welcome back! I still have my fingers crossed for the Mea Culpa full release.

 

@NaturalTvventy

Perhaps one day. Thanks so much for remembering that little work.

 

First I am gonna focus on TNT forever and finishing that. No other doom things while that is happening. And then... Perhaps. But I will need a lot of help from the community to make it worthwhile. Great ideas and levels in there, but it is a bit too much of literally everything. 

5 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 

You'll be happy to know that I saved it from death and had a copy of his latest Mea Culpa beta in backup all these years, which he now has a copy of :) So its definitely not impossible!

 

Yes this is absolutely true. @Devalaous had the latest version of Mea Culpa, a full three versions newer than the one that I had. And I only had that because a friend happened to have it on his hard drive. I had lost it totally. So shoutout to good friends.

 

1 hour ago, Steve D said:

Welcome back, @Kyka! I never knew you back in the day, and you were already gone from TNT:R when I joined up -- @Jaws In Space was in charge then and did a great job -- but obviously your vision permeated the project, and it was a really fun project to work on. I'm happy with the maps I did for TNT:R and glad to be listed in something that turned out so well, though I wish I hadn't placed the coolest part of Map14 in a secret area. ;D

 

Speaking of Map14, reading what @Eris, @Devalaous and yourself said about your plans for E2 and that map in particular, I hope I at least came somewhat close to the feeling and atmosphere you had in mind. Same ballpark, maybe? Perhaps county? Okay, how about state? ;D

 

And yes, I'm a huge fan of the Revilution Texture pack. I really enjoyed working with it and am currently using it in a project of my own. I especially like Brown12, so my thanks to whoever made that one, it's a truly great rock texture.

 

I'm also thrilled that @Uni is still in the community. I absolutely love Map01. It's among my favorite opening maps in any megawad. I liked it so much that I keyed off its style for Map04. All I can say is, "More maps, please."

 

 

 

@Steve D Thanks so much for the welcome. Much appreciated. I remember your maps from Revilution. Map 14 was that huge port map. Lots of water and open areas. The start areas with the weapons surrounded by barrels. And the other map that was somewhere in the map 02-04 slots, again lots of open areas, height variation. And a particularly savage couple of fights in both. Three archviles at the end of map 14. Three? srsly? And yes I thought your maps had a great sense of progression and exploration in them. Proceed carefully and you will do well in your maps. And stock up on everything for those sudden moments when all hell gets let loose. You don't mind putting in some very difficult fights mixed in with general gameplay. Yeah I thought your maps were a fitting, well, err, fit, for what tnt was trying to do. They both created a sense of time and place, and they were both fun.

 

You mention that you are using the texture pack, which of course you are welcome to do. Here are a list of credits. (The list of credits in Revilution is incomplete: totally my fault as I failed to had on the documentation when I left. I went searching through old folders and managed to find the .txt

 

Spoiler

 

TNT2 Texture Credits
---------------------

-Nick Baker.
    -From NB_RECOL.wad
    -From NB_Flats.wad
    -From UDET.wad
    -From nb_flats.wad

-Fuzzball Fox (For Textures from the "Fuzzy's Random Stuff" thread from the Resources forum at ZDoom.org)

-Nigel "Enjay" Rowand for assorted patches used.

-Espi for several patches and flats used. (From Suspended in Dusk). With Respect and Thanks.

-esselfortium for assorted patches used, as well as for a great job on the Episode 1 sky patches.

-Super Jamie for several recolors

-40oz for textures taken from "We got Texture artists" thread. (Doomworld.com)

-Nick Baker and Submerge for flats taken from the nb5texD2.wad texture pack.

-Scott 'Covaro' Cover and Derek MacDonald for texture taken from 'Wallytex.wad'

-Jimmy91 for textures taken from the 'we got texture artists here' thread (Doomworld.com)

-For textures taken from gothictx.wad:
    
        Primary Graphics Artist : Anthony Czerwonka 
        Secondary Designer(s)   : Nick Baker        
                    : Ola Björling      
                                : Matthew Dixon     
                    : Travers Dunne    
                                : Iikka Ker„nen     
                    : Chris Martin      
                                : Michal Mesko      
                                : Andrei Romanov    
                    : Dan Twomey    

-Pawel Zarczynski (aka NMN) for textures taken from nmncorp1.wad 

-Roger Ritenour for patches taken from PHOBOS.wad

-NaturalTvventy and Kaiser for Flats taken from the Doom Alpha texture pack.

-DEFCONRAZOR22 for textures used from his Doom Recolored texture pack.

-WitchHaven Texture pack for several textures used. (WitchTex.wad)

-Russel Pearson for the PLAT based textures taken and modified from DECADE.wad

-Realm667.com as the source of most of the new textures/flats packs.

-Thomas Moeller and Matthias Worch for the 2 skull switch patches taken from MM2.wad

-All additional texture/patch/flat editing and compilation by Kyka

 

 

And ROCK12 was actually my work. I am no great texture artist, but occasionally I manage to get something decent. It came from an interleaved material image from the interwebs, which I modified and resized and texture mapped using Gimp to get something functional and interesting. Thanks for using the pack. Good luck with the project.

 

And SFoZ911 is an amazing mapper. Map 01 of revilution was amazing, one of the best in the set.

 

THanks again for the welcome

[Kyka]

34 minutes ago, roadworx said:

oshit i remember you

 

i didn't even realize that you were the one who started up tnt:r. either way, welcome back!!

HI @roadworx Always nice to be remembered. And yes I did start up tntr, back when we split from TNT2. It was like the Doom mapping equivalent of an ugly divorce. I freely admit I made it worse than it needed to be, but it was a bad situation either way.

 

Thanks so much for the welcome, I really do appreciate it. I like your posting btw. Truly. 

[Walter confetti]

Welcome back, punk imp! I was reading your wiki some days ago for some reason I don't remember now ... Anyway do you have some projects in the future? Did you played some of the newer stuff that was made in these 6 years of pause?

[CBM]

what kind of music is planned for TNT Forever?

 

I have an idea.... What about some MIDI versions of popular songs like a MIDI of AC/DCs TNT would be a cool tune for one of the levels, along with MIDIs of music from the Norwegian band called TNT and perhaps more music that is somehow TNT related?

Edited July 25, 2021 by CBM

[P41R47]

4 minutes ago, CBM said:

what kind of music is planned for TNT Forever?

 

Some MIDI versions of popular songs like a MIDI of AC/DCs TNT would be a cool tune for one of the levels, along with MIDIs of music from the Norwegian band called TNT and so on

we have a complete soundtrack already, made from rejected track from devilution and revilution, and a few other inclusions.

[CBM]

2 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

we have a complete soundtrack already, made from rejected track from devilution and revilution, and a few other inclusions.

ahh okay.

 

I am looking forward to trying TNT Forever once its ready.

[P41R47]

9 minutes ago, CBM said:

I have an idea.... What about some MIDI versions of popular songs like a MIDI of AC/DCs TNT would be a cool tune for one of the levels, along with MIDIs of music from the Norwegian band called TNT and perhaps more music that is somehow TNT related?

About this, i'm finishing a midipack for Fragport, a kinda TNT inspired mapset.
It mostly made out of music by popular rock bands.
So give me a few hours and you will be playing at the rhytim of TNT by AC/DC ;)

[Kyka]

6 hours ago, Walter confetti said:

Welcome back, punk imp! I was reading your wiki some days ago for some reason I don't remember now ... Anyway do you have some projects in the future? Did you played some of the newer stuff that was made in these 6 years of pause?

 HI @Walter confetti. Thank you for the welcome. :) ...aaaand reading my wiki. Haha famous at last.

 

To answer your question, yes I have played quite a bit of Doom in the last 6 months or so. Been keeping a list since the start of this year:

 

Ultimate Doom:

-------------------

Back to Basics by Espi

INVASION.wad (classic 90's ultimate doom megawad.)

No ENd in Sight by NT, Xaser and Chris Lutz. (Possibly my favorite megawad ever. Played for like the 20th time))

REKKR.wad (Total Conversion.)

John Romero's Sigil.

 

Doom2

--------

Khorus Speedy Shit

Reverie.wad by Valkiriforce. (an edited version where I removed that colored teleport maze lol.)

Revilution. (At last)

Doom Zero

Sunlust

Plutonia 2

Plutonia revisited communite project

Cyberdreams

Alien Vendetta (for probably the 10th time.)

ALT.wad

Three's a crowd

PHML's '25 years on earth'

CPD.wad

 

All great.

Also various other single wads and bits and pieces. 

Thank you for asking. What about you?

 

 

[Devalaous]

Oh good, you DID play ALT :p
Its rather similar in a lot of ways to the kind of mapset we wanted to make, very narrative-oriented.

 

For some history on Revilution's midi soundtrack, I posted some recollections on this video, with Eris correcting me at the end, because apparently I forgot some small details.

 

 

(Open in youtube itself. The avatar im using there is in fact Revilution's original final boss concept art btw)

[Tristan]

41 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

For some history on Revilution's midi soundtrack, I posted some recollections on this video, with Eris correcting me at the end, because apparently I forgot some small details.

 

I missed an opportunity to open with "Hi Ragnor, hope you're doing well..."

Anyway, that's just reminded me I meant to dig up that copy of the music pack I have from 2015, so here it is. Still has UD666's stuff, Frozen Wilderness, and a couple of unused Bucket/Viscra tracks.

 

(Small side note for anyone looking at this, probably best not to use anything straight from this pack, I don't recall if stuff was updated later on etc, best to just take from Revilution itself or from TNT Forever when that's out.)

[Devalaous]

Another chunk of development history from my memory; Kyka and Eris may remember this differently, so apologies if my memory fails me. Its been quite some time.

 

Revilution's original story was a mix of the ideas of me, Kyka, Megamur and Eris, and concepts developed during Kyka's time with Devilution. Rather than throw out what we already had been working with, things were kept more or less. The old Devilution opened with a map that was right in front of the Demonspitter from Last Call; it was dead and broken, and you pretty much had to knock its dead mouth open and travel THROUGH it's insides, to another past of the Last Call level. From there, Map 02 onwards was TNT E1 style techbases with a modern flair. Back then I got Bucket to make a midi for it that started with the tune of TNT Map 30, so the moment you started the map, you saw the final boss from the previous megawad, and heard the exact same music, for a direct continuation. The first time that map and the midi came together thanks to Kyka sending me an updated version, I got goosebumps. It was PERFECT.

However we lost this map in the split (ironically, that same map is now Map 01 of TNT Forever, so they discarded it ANYWAY), but we kept the music track, likely because I was the one that requested it in the first place. Or maybe I just wanted to keep it. That whole event was...not good for anyone's temper. Hence why I wanted Map 01 to start the way I outlined earlier.

 

The rest of Episode 1's maps were intended to be TNT bases, a mix of E1 and E3 styles, with rocking midis that would have sounded at home in Evilution, had the soundtrack been filled entirely. Doomguy was simply on his way home after conquering Evilution, cleaning up leftover bases after Hell had receded. Several maps would have had broken remnants of hell in places, like a corrupting shard of something evil embedded in a building or the ground. The awesome E1 sky that Kyka got a hold of was the epitome of this vision, the giant skull and the flaming meteor clear signs that hell had been there. The only sign of the planned villain would have been the eerie blue-eyed icon of sin at the very beginning; something had remotely activated its corpse and sent out more demons (the cast call) before shutting down once more, but still watching you.

 

We had trouble keeping the E1 maps 'not Drake-length' as modern standards always called for bigger and longer levels, plus Kyka admitted himself that he doesnt like to cut things. Personally, I was fine with the length of everything I played. Kyka, Megamur and I loved the side of Evilution that the new Devilution team didnt; we liked the Drake maps, the big long exploratory maps, we even liked Habitat. TNT to us was about the adventure, the 'realism' in the maps that gave such a sense of place. Every map was wanted to be an adventure of its own, one part of Doomguy's long journey to get back home to Earth, rather than 'here is a map that follows the last one'. We knew, and accepted, that a lot of people likely wouldn't like Revilution, as we didnt follow the growing standards of hyperpolished 'maps for maps sake' that seemed to be growing. We were fine if we never won a cacoward, or if we even got panned like D2INO. We had a VISION, and we wanted to see it through. Wanted, being the key word, given that we sorta bit off more than we could chew, but you cant say we didn't have the drive.

 

E1 was going to end with a sector rocketship, that was to take Doomguy home to Earth; Just when he finally got to relax in his ship, after 41+2 maps of carnage, the ship's autopilot is hijacked and controlled, as the lights in the cockpit all turn an eerie blue for a moment. Instead of going home, it instead takes him to the dark side of Io, docking at a seemingly deserted spaceport, the UAC complex that the original portal mentioned in the manual was situated in. And thus, the spooky Map 12 introduces players to a shift in theme that was going to be a surprise for those who expected raw TNT action all the way through.

 

Devilution addressed the hellspawn's devilship mentioned in the manual, and is one of the few things about that mapset I am still waiting for (They better not have cut that or heads will roll!), so we took something else from the manual to focus on. And out of all the ideas we had that survived the Eris/Jaws rendition, I am so glad Phobus made Map 20 a reality.

[Kyka]

@Devalous that is pretty much what I recall. Nothing there that I disagree with or recall differently. Glad that one of us has such a formidable memory! Well said. I really love this narrative/story style of doom mapping, and this is the thing that probably makes me most sad that we didn't fully execute on. (My fault of course,) but there was something special about these ideas, and the mapping concepts that backed them up. Dammit I already regret that I left when I did. Thanks for sharing Devalous, in such detail and clarity. I think we will do some interesting things with TNT FOrever.

[Xaser]

Belated welcome-back! Looks like you arrived just in time to notice that Devilution is... not released yet. Welp. :P -- it's dangerously close to completion (1 map short), so it'll hit the shelves when some IRL hurdles get out of the way (no ETA on that, unfortunately -- life's a B).

 

I guess I've got some TNT2 war stories to share at some point, but better wait 'til all the projects are done so we don't curse it again. :P

[Devalaous]

8 hours ago, Kyka said:

 (My fault of course,) but there was something special about these ideas, and the mapping concepts that backed them up. Dammit I already regret that I left when I did.

 

Honestly, we bit off more than we could chew. A lot of the stuff I thought of needed proof of concept wads and the assets to make them happen. If we were making a project from scratch it would have better, but we also had a chunk of existing maps that needed editing to these new plans, AND we had people still making maps for us, while we didn't have the assets. Maybe I should have kept lower to the ground xD

 

Another thing from E1 that I forgot to mention was Lithosphere; according to @Jaws In Space it wont be in Forever because someone else pinched it for another project. Heres the thing though; that map isn't even properly credited. At some point in Revilution, Megamur overhauled the original map and made it a fuckton more TNT-like, with an expansive secret area, an abandoned mine that crumbled on your head if you brushed against the rotting wooden supports , and a platforming segment over a base that had partially fallen into lava. The original that was in Devilution was kinda eh and generic action map, Megamur made it so much more enjoyable to play and gave it a definite 'TNT' feeling. It was my favourite map in the episode after all that reworking.

 

Episode 2 overview:

Episode 2 was born from Eris' map 12 midi, Ionian Isolation. He can account for its creation better than I can naturally, but it was originally made for Devilution. when Map 12 was still an action-oriented 'Wormhold'. At this point in time, the map was a straightforward actionfest bloodbath, and entirely too linear. It looked good, and was definitely TNT, but the midi changed its feel. When we ended up with the map, we asked Eris if we could have the midi for it still, and eventually he joined us on the project planning team. As we discussed this new midi and the sheer change in atmosphere it brought the map, as well as the balance changes it needed, like undoing some of the linearity and opening the base up more, Megamur went through it and changed the map with edits to bring it in line with Ionian Isolation; the opening fights were removed, the map was made darker and damaged, it became thoroughly creepy and 'haunted'. This was where the map that became Transduction really started.

 

This new Map 12 inspired us, and singlehandedly lead to the early TNT Revilution story as we realised we could do more than just '32 TNTish maps'. We wanted Episode 2 to loosely follow Map 12's dark and sinister theme, a series of maps that were part of the shut down and dilapidated Portal Faciity from the Evilution manual. And during those talks, our villain was concepted, using the BOSSBACK of Evilution as inspiration. We envisioned a tech-infused demon that had taken over, gone further than Baphomet and the unnamed Demonspitter in Evilution, and could remotely control local technology. Apparently the ideas I thought up, basically ended up as 'demon Shodan' (I had never played System Shock at this time of my life, or even really heard of it btw). As previously mentioned, Eris was going to make a Map 14 that gave the first look at this villain, a sort of reveal of a new texture involving probably a blue glowing eye on a monitor that shuts off when approached, followed by a huge trap. We would have edited our Devilution carryovers in E2 to use this texture around many of the traps, following this map. Midis from our composers for the E2 slots were the moodier type to match this new direction.

 

@Xaser was originally going to make an E2 map for Revilution called 'Singularity'; he liked a concept I posted of a proper Wormhole reference (The one in Map 12 didn't make too much sense, and I actually had to be reminded it was even part of the map) where the map would be four alternate realities instead of two, and spiraling around a focal point, the titular Singularity. As if one location had been sundered apart by a UAC portal experiment gone wrong and split into four differing realities. He even claimed a specific midi from the pack from Bucket's work for the mapslot. I don't know if anything came of that map, but it was one I was looking forward to seeing.

 

Map 20 was always going to be 'Portal Facility' and was focused entirely around the portal mentioned in the TNT manual, the one where the UAC successfully stopped all invasions cold, until the Hellship ambushed the facility and killed everyone. @Phobus eventually did the map and did it justice, as ive heard a lot of praise about the atmosphere of the map. Map 12 and 20 are a good look at Revilution's original E2 plan, had we been able to make good on our ideas and get the assets for them + communicate better than we did, I think E2 would have been popular.

Next time I get some free posting time, I'll outline E3 concepts, reveal our big Map 30 plan, and see if I can grab the final boss concept art.

[Kyka]

13 hours ago, Xaser said:

Belated welcome-back! Looks like you arrived just in time to notice that Devilution is... not released yet. Welp. :P -- it's dangerously close to completion (1 map short), so it'll hit the shelves when some IRL hurdles get out of the way (no ETA on that, unfortunately -- life's a B).

 

I guess I've got some TNT2 war stories to share at some point, but better wait 'til all the projects are done so we don't curse it again. :P

 

 Thanks so much for the welcome @Xaser Really humbled to be welcomed back in such a manner, especially seeing as I could be quite... 'controversial' to put it diplomatically. And yes I have heard there is one map remaining to be done on Devilution. Really wish you guys well with it. With people the caliber of you and Alter and Tarnsman at the helm, it will be a great project, and one I look forward to playing.

 

I look forward to the war stories also. Once these projects are done, we need to do the interwebs equivalent of.. I don't know, a group photo or something. Everyone who was involved in TNT2, Revilution, Devilution, Convilution, and all the -illutions that spiralled out from that singluar starting point.

 

Thanks again Xaser. Grateful.

 

12 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 

Honestly, we bit off more than we could chew. A lot of the stuff I thought of needed proof of concept wads and the assets to make them happen. If we were making a project from scratch it would have better, but we also had a chunk of existing maps that needed editing to these new plans, AND we had people still making maps for us, while we didn't have the assets. Maybe I should have kept lower to the ground xD

 

Another thing from E1 that I forgot to mention was Lithosphere; according to @Jaws In Space it wont be in Forever because someone else pinched it for another project. Heres the thing though; that map isn't even properly credited. At some point in Revilution, Megamur overhauled the original map and made it a fuckton more TNT-like, with an expansive secret area, an abandoned mine that crumbled on your head if you brushed against the rotting wooden supports , and a platforming segment over a base that had partially fallen into lava. The original that was in Devilution was kinda eh and generic action map, Megamur made it so much more enjoyable to play and gave it a definite 'TNT' feeling. It was my favourite map in the episode after all that reworking.

 

Episode 2 overview:

Episode 2 was born from Eris' map 12 midi, Ionian Isolation. He can account for its creation better than I can naturally, but it was originally made for Devilution. when Map 12 was still an action-oriented 'Wormhold'. At this point in time, the map was a straightforward actionfest bloodbath, and entirely too linear. It looked good, and was definitely TNT, but the midi changed its feel. When we ended up with the map, we asked Eris if we could have the midi for it still, and eventually he joined us on the project planning team. As we discussed this new midi and the sheer change in atmosphere it brought the map, as well as the balance changes it needed, like undoing some of the linearity and opening the base up more, Megamur went through it and changed the map with edits to bring it in line with Ionian Isolation; the opening fights were removed, the map was made darker and damaged, it became thoroughly creepy and 'haunted'. This was where the map that became Transduction really started.

 

This new Map 12 inspired us, and singlehandedly lead to the early TNT Revilution story as we realised we could do more than just '32 TNTish maps'. We wanted Episode 2 to loosely follow Map 12's dark and sinister theme, a series of maps that were part of the shut down and dilapidated Portal Faciity from the Evilution manual. And during those talks, our villain was concepted, using the BOSSBACK of Evilution as inspiration. We envisioned a tech-infused demon that had taken over, gone further than Baphomet and the unnamed Demonspitter in Evilution, and could remotely control local technology. Apparently the ideas I thought up, basically ended up as 'demon Shodan' (I had never played System Shock at this time of my life, or even really heard of it btw). As previously mentioned, Eris was going to make a Map 14 that gave the first look at this villain, a sort of reveal of a new texture involving probably a blue glowing eye on a monitor that shuts off when approached, followed by a huge trap. We would have edited our Devilution carryovers in E2 to use this texture around many of the traps, following this map. Midis from our composers for the E2 slots were the moodier type to match this new direction.

 

@Xaser was originally going to make an E2 map for Revilution called 'Singularity'; he liked a concept I posted of a proper Wormhole reference (The one in Map 12 didn't make too much sense, and I actually had to be reminded it was even part of the map) where the map would be four alternate realities instead of two, and spiraling around a focal point, the titular Singularity. As if one location had been sundered apart by a UAC portal experiment gone wrong and split into four differing realities. He even claimed a specific midi from the pack from Bucket's work for the mapslot. I don't know if anything came of that map, but it was one I was looking forward to seeing.

 

Map 20 was always going to be 'Portal Facility' and was focused entirely around the portal mentioned in the TNT manual, the one where the UAC successfully stopped all invasions cold, until the Hellship ambushed the facility and killed everyone. @Phobus eventually did the map and did it justice, as ive heard a lot of praise about the atmosphere of the map. Map 12 and 20 are a good look at Revilution's original E2 plan, had we been able to make good on our ideas and get the assets for them + communicate better than we did, I think E2 would have been popular.

Next time I get some free posting time, I'll outline E3 concepts, reveal our big Map 30 plan, and see if I can grab the final boss concept art.

 

@Devalaous

 

I really love all these old details. And you have a formidable memory to recall this. I am sitting here reading all this years later like "Oh yeah.. this was a thing... and that was a thing. And all the things over here. I remember this."

 

So many great concepts. Feel free to share as much as you have. This is great history. Once again, thanks for all your work. You drove that project every bit as much as I did. Dammit, we nearly did it. Well done you.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Kyka

[Jaws In Space]

1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

Map 20 was always going to be 'Portal Facility' and was focused entirely around the portal mentioned in the TNT manual, the one where the UAC successfully stopped all invasions cold, until the Hellship ambushed the facility and killed everyone. @Phobus eventually did the map and did it justice, as ive heard a lot of praise about the atmosphere of the map. Map 12 and 20 are a good look at Revilution's original E2 plan, had we been able to make good on our ideas and get the assets for them + communicate better than we did, I think E2 would have been popular.

 

Was Map 20 always going to be Portal Facility? If this is accurate then I was never told about it. When the DWMC played a beta of Revilution back in 2017 I scoured the forums to get as accurate a description of the development of the project. Here's what I wrote concerning map 20:

 

"Map 20 is Portal Facility by Phobus, it was accepted into Revilution by Eris Falling near the middle of August 2016. Phobus joined Revilution oh his own accord shortly after Eris removed 3 maps from Revilution that we had released as a demo. The map was inspired by the film Event Horizon & Evilution map 6 Open Season. Phobus also intended to also make map 21 as a followup to this map, but due to time restraints he was never able to get around to it. When Phobus dropped out of making map 21 I wanted to move Eradrop's map from the map 21 slot to the map 20 slot, Eradrop had intended his map to close E2, but Kyka had placed it as E3's opener, also Eris Falling yelled at me when I attempted to move Eradrops map to map slot 20. I was still hesitant with keeping this map here once Eris had dropped out, but instead of Eradrops map I was now wanting to move gaspes map to map slot 20, in the end it was the story text that I had written that kept the maps where they are now. When I was writing the Story for Revilution I decided to make this map a depiction of the interior of one of the hell ships, like the one that appears on the title screen of Evilution."

 

Also I looked through a few old PM's between Eris, Phobus, & myself. Phobus didn't even make Portal Facility knowing that it would be paired with Hell's Furnace, that happened after he was finished with the map & it really only happened because Hell's Furnace happened to be assigned to the map 20 spot.

[Devalaous]

Eris was on board with the plans back then, and yeah, we always intended Map 20 to be a big spooky portal to hell, based on the one in the manual. The original Arenophobia with all its savage battle arenas was meant to be the other end of it, until it dropped to Map 22. Sounds like another detail that failed to be communicated. The fact that Phobus seems to have accidentally created the original idea for Map 20 by chance is pretty amusing.

 

'Eradrop had intended his map to close E2, but Kyka had placed it as E3's opener,'

So this is why Arenophobia got pushed down one slot. We had map 20's slot kind of reserved. I never actually talked to Eradrop during those days (I think I was rapidly losing time to help manage the project, and it definitely shows), and a Map 20 out of nowhere was probably jarring.

 

I'm not even gonna try to hide it, we really were bad at managing things. Ah well, lessons learned in life.

[Kyka]

55 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

Eris was on board with the plans back then, and yeah, we always intended Map 20 to be a big spooky portal to hell, based on the one in the manual. The original Arenophobia with all its savage battle arenas was meant to be the other end of it, until it dropped to Map 22. Sounds like another detail that failed to be communicated. The fact that Phobus seems to have accidentally created the original idea for Map 20 by chance is pretty amusing.

 

'Eradrop had intended his map to close E2, but Kyka had placed it as E3's opener,'

So this is why Arenophobia got pushed down one slot. We had map 20's slot kind of reserved. I never actually talked to Eradrop during those days (I think I was rapidly losing time to help manage the project, and it definitely shows), and a Map 20 out of nowhere was probably jarring.

 

I'm not even gonna try to hide it, we really were bad at managing things. Ah well, lessons learned in life.

 

I think we did really well in some ways, and poorly in some areas too. I don't think it was all bad. Everyone was in very different places, and things were clearly missed. I have run long term creative projects irl literally for decades, and I know it is very difficult, if not impossible to run a successful creative project unless people involved are in a good place in their lives, and are able to be stable and consistent. To focus on high end creative demands while your living arrangements or family/relationship conditions are unstable and uncertain is astonishingly difficult. Without going into details out of respect for people's privacy, @Megamur struggled to keep up with the work on TNTR for months before he finally had to leave for family reasons. I really admired him. Very underrated mapper too. And I had just clawed my way off the streets, (literally,) as well as going through a very difficult relationship breakup, and then something of a breakdown, all while working on this project. And @Devalaous  you had some very real stuff going on too back then. I worked insanely hard on this project, but I think you outworked us all. Honestly, in the end, it is a miracle we made it as far as we did. Dammit if I had just managed to hold it together for a few more months we would have done it. We would have. Actually. Done it.

 

Yes absolutely things got lost, and I am really sorry that we were not able to fully express and outwork your and Megamur's astonishing storylines and visual concepts and horror/tech hell themes. That said, I really hope that you are able to fully express those things within you, if not here in 'DoomLand,' then in some other creative endavour irl. You and Megamur really deserved this project to be successful, more than anyone. In fact that was one of the major reasons I came back. That level of work and passion and risk is so deserving of a successful outcome. It really is.

 

1 hour ago, Jaws In Space said:

 

Was Map 20 always going to be Portal Facility? If this is accurate then I was never told about it. When the DWMC played a beta of Revilution back in 2017 I scoured the forums to get as accurate a description of the development of the project. Here's what I wrote concerning map 20:

 

"Map 20 is Portal Facility by Phobus, it was accepted into Revilution by Eris Falling near the middle of August 2016. Phobus joined Revilution oh his own accord shortly after Eris removed 3 maps from Revilution that we had released as a demo. The map was inspired by the film Event Horizon & Evilution map 6 Open Season. Phobus also intended to also make map 21 as a followup to this map, but due to time restraints he was never able to get around to it. When Phobus dropped out of making map 21 I wanted to move Eradrop's map from the map 21 slot to the map 20 slot, Eradrop had intended his map to close E2, but Kyka had placed it as E3's opener, also Eris Falling yelled at me when I attempted to move Eradrops map to map slot 20. I was still hesitant with keeping this map here once Eris had dropped out, but instead of Eradrops map I was now wanting to move gaspes map to map slot 20, in the end it was the story text that I had written that kept the maps where they are now. When I was writing the Story for Revilution I decided to make this map a depiction of the interior of one of the hell ships, like the one that appears on the title screen of Evilution."

 

Also I looked through a few old PM's between Eris, Phobus, & myself. Phobus didn't even make Portal Facility knowing that it would be paired with Hell's Furnace, that happened after he was finished with the map & it really only happened because Hell's Furnace happened to be assigned to the map 20 spot.

 

@Jaws In Space I have long had a real respect for how you pulled TNTR together from the dumpster fire that it was after my departure, and this post gives a real inside view into the work you had to do to start to get this thing on the road again. Having to scour the forums to work out where all the maps were at and where all the people were at, as well as probably 20 different versions of the mapset and its more-than-30 different maps, and the texture pack, which at that point was at version 70-something. Man it is a miracle this ever got up and running again. Huge Kudos to @Eris, as well, but in particular to you for seeing this thing through. Honestly, well done. Much respect.

[Tristan]

It's all a bit hazy but yeah I was probably adamant about Phobus' map staying in 20 because of the original plans and I just never explained that. Even when I was officially in charge I was pretty absent so no reason to give me kudos for anything other than some music really. I still think though that any other map order around that segment wouldn't have been right. Ironically Hell's Furnace was written for the MAP21 slot, and Bucket's "(Here Comes) The Night Train" would have been on 20, back when the plan was still to do a two-part map there.

[Grain of Salt]

Kyka fwiw I remember liking your tnt2 map screenshots back in the day :)

 

iirc there were vines and green stuff...

[Bucket]

sup

[Jaws In Space]

3 hours ago, Eris said:

Ironically Hell's Furnace was written for the MAP21 slot, and Bucket's "(Here Comes) The Night Train" would have been on 20, back when the plan was still to do a two-part map there.

Wow that's kinda crazy, the reason (Here Comes) The Night Train wasn't available to use at the time is because when I joined Revilution to make map 2 (Map05 Graveyard Shift in the final version), I made a short fast paced map, (Here Comes) The Night Train was the only fast paced midi that wasn't already being used anywhere so I asked Kyka if I could use it on my map. As far as I'm aware that was one of kyka's final decisions before he left.

[Kyka]

2 hours ago, Grain of Salt said:

Kyka fwiw I remember liking your tnt2 map screenshots back in the day :)

 

iirc there were vines and green stuff...

 

I remember Xaser made a big post about those original tnt vines with the green artefacts, which i laways thought  were leaves, or copper verdigris or something like that. And in terms of green, there was my massive Viridian Twilight map which was green from start to finish. Weirdly you saying this now because I just found the green version of that map today! I hadn't seen it for years. Thanks for the comment, I am glad you like the screenies. Now all I gotta do is make the maps play as well as they look! :)

 

2 hours ago, Bucket said:

sup

 

Hey @Bucket Thanks for the post, and thanks for your work on Revilution. I know it was years ago, but you did so so many MIDI's; all the ones with TNT in the titles. I don't recall exactly but probably half of the revilution music would have been you. Hope you are well! Thanks for stopping by.

 

1 hour ago, Jaws In Space said:

Wow that's kinda crazy, the reason (Here Comes) The Night Train wasn't available to use at the time is because when I joined Revilution to make map 2 (Map05 Graveyard Shift in the final version), I made a short fast paced map, (Here Comes) The Night Train was the only fast paced midi that wasn't already being used anywhere so I asked Kyka if I could use it on my map. As far as I'm aware that was one of kyka's final decisions before he left.

 

To be honest I don't recall, but it sounds about right. It was a really unique little map. Always thought it was a little brutal for the 05 slot, but definitely deserved to be in the set. I always loved the combination of big open areas with the dark tunnels toward the further reaches of the map. It was almost like a little city map.

[garudave]

Hey @Kyka, just wanted to drop a message thanking you (and the other project devs) for your fantastic contributions.  I'm a relatively new Doomer and TNT Revilution is my current favorite megawad.  It hits all the aesthetic notes I want as well as providing exciting gameplay.

 

In particular, I want to say Transduction is the best Doom level I've played yet.  The simmering action building to that hellish crescendo is peak Dooming.  Managing to make a genuinely creepy level in a 30-year-old game engine is super impressive.

 

Also want to praise Pharaoh's Claim since you're credited on that one.  Dunno if the quest for the BFG in that level was your idea but as a pistol starter, that was one of the coolest and most memorable experiences I've had in Doom.

[Devalaous]

1 hour ago, garudave said:

In particular, I want to say Transduction is the best Doom level I've played yet.  The simmering action building to that hellish crescendo is peak Dooming.  Managing to make a genuinely creepy level in a 30-year-old game engine is super impressive.

 

Everytime someone says this, it makes me smile; its so good to know that my ideas were actually good ones. Dobu, Megamur and Eris are the ones that really need the praise though for that level, as they made the idea real and refined it to what is today. I only lit the spark :p